Last edited: Thursday, May 04, 2006 at 9:42:31 AM

Speaking of slowing down, have you scored a goal this week ?

Scores are Hamstrings againts the Ougly Bares:
Game 1: 2 - 8 (ouch)
Game 2: 9 - 8 (imagine Bolo's cringe of agony against a pontifical Hamsties win)

In other news we put LW in cryogeny! ^{lag problem solved for 1 week}

Last edited: Friday, March 10, 2006 at 12:33:38 PM

Lag seems to be a bigger problem for some this season and I think it's fair that the questions about the maps are being brought up.

Can the map makers give us a run down on how many textures are in the maps we're using this season?

I think we all like the idea of fair neutral servers. It seems like a lot of work to get that done. Thanks to though's that are trying to make that a reality.

I can see what you and others are saying Roo about hosting and playing not being optimal. But I can't count the many nightly frantic games I hosted for about a year & the hundreds of great games I've played on RX's and others ( many seasons of league games as well ). They were most often lag free and every bit as enjoyable as the servers you mentioned. So I think your therory is just as anecdotal as well. Maybe it is a combination of some of the maps and the hosting/playing situation.

A bit off topic but...

My advice, get an XBox 360 y'all ! I picked one up a few months ago and I'm really impressed with it. No TT yet :(, but no lag either :). It costs less than a mac mini ($400.00), packs more power than most of our comps, and looks and plays amazingly well. After this season I'll probably spend most of my gaming hours on it. If you like the intensity of league games I highly recommend it. Maybe it's time for our community to embrace other games as well. It would be great experience I think.

Check out these clips.

EDIT: I moved the links to here:

http://supra.planetthinktanks2.com/archives/comm-thread.asp?forum=4&thread=12402&page=1

Last edited: Friday, March 10, 2006 at 2:51:23 PM

Still missing one game.

You don't have to have a dog computer to feel the pain Tally. I think lag can be contagious. Even if you have the fastest box in the game, if someone elses comp
starts choking on graphics intensive maps your interactions with that player will be laggy because your information on their state coming in from the network will
be spotty. We all know it can be painful to be around a lagger. Its distracting thinking about the lagsters and keeping track of "Oh thats player X, I have to lead him by an extra 20 pixels, to hit him. ", "Oh its Player Y, 15 pixel lead", "Oh its Player Z, shoot at my teammate on the other side of the map to hit him". BTW I dropped Scrumbag to 8 players. Keep me posted.

Been busy at new job...

I have the perfect solution: Solo-player mode! Completely solves the lag problem! %)

I don't know what to add that's helpful. It's all been said many times over and yet here we are still.

I don't see myself hosting much anymore though. I am done causing others aggravation. I will just show up and play on the East Coast lag boxes and deal with it.

Good man, dash. Seems better to me. Wonder what others think.

@dash, the lagger has way worse conditions than the non-lagger. Lagger's firing is slower, movement is slower, he may lose the flag to a guy whose driving behind him, all of a sudden someone may drive past him like in a drag race. I would call that a pain.

I bet most of you have noticed Freudian Flats to be laggier than the three other original Lush maps. It's often said to be laggier, because of the amount of trees, which holds some true as large amount of trees increase lag, but the amount of trees are pretty close to the amount of trees in the three other maps, but guess what, the Freudian uses different visual settings than the three others. Coincidence? I don't think so.

IMO the same thing is happening here in the PSX. Overall the maps you play on are pretty similar same size, pretty much same amount of objects, etc, but the big difference is in visual image. I don't mean textures, skies or anything like that. What I mean is how far you can see and how close the fog is. These two settings effects a great amount to the frame per seconds rate that the maps gives. The higher the fps is, the better it is, because when the fps is high the map won't cause bad screen flickering, which feels a lot like lag. This is one of the reasons why some maps feel better to play on than others.

Bad fps, typical distance lag and server hoster playing(missed sth?) the outcome has surely to be bloody terrible, but the good news is that the fps can be raised to a good level with just a few setting changes which are barely noticeable on the game. I'm not saying that after you have fixed the fps the games would all of a sudden be unlaggy, but IMHO they should be much better to play on than before.

I don't know what is the ultimately best settings, but I know what settings gives good fps and what should be avoided. There are two different settings that I have noticed to give great fps.

First one drops the fog around the gaming area and therefore hides outer islands if there are such. The 500 are changed bigger until you can see the gaming area well from the northest point to the southest point. I suggest not to change it bigger than 1000. Myself I have prefered this.

                                        

                                        new Sky(Sky) {

                                        --

                                        visibleDistance = "500";

                                        fogDistance = "300";

                                        --

                                        

Second one shows outer islands well, but these islands may look like they are part of the gaming area as there are no fog covering them. Works good on some maps, but not on all. Looks nice on maps which don't have outer islands. Not totally sure if the values are good on the example below, but they are way giving.

                                        

                                        new Sky(Sky) {

                                        --

                                        visibleDistance = "1600";

                                        fogDistance = "1000";

                                        --

                                        

Wow, thanks Triv that is awesome.

Wonder what those setting are on the current maps? Would be intersting to change one and leave one and get a bunch of idiots to test it out.

So, my Haunted Woods map should be the ultimate in non-laggy maps, eh? %) Since you only have about 5 tank-lengths of visibility anywhere in the map.

Nice post Triv. Sounds like this really could be a significant factor.

Since these are such easy and minor modifications, I suggest we modify our PSLX maps to meet Triv's minimum settings (visibleDistance = "500"; fogDistance = "300";) and repost a revised PSLX_Map_pack to all hosters. This would be a good test.

I nominate Napalm to make these changes ASAP. We need to come together and do something constructive to solve this. This seems like a good opportunity.

Comments?

Sounds like the wingman script is the diagnostic tool of choice. Does it work on Macs?

Git r dun. Im still missing scores.

If I recall when I tried the wingman script ages ago I had a problem with it on my Mac. That was back when he actually played though so it may have gotten an update.

Great info Triv.

Maybe the modders if they haven't done so could work up a good and thorough modding FAQ that includes information on performance issues.

Last edited: Saturday, March 11, 2006 at 2:12:12 PM

Not sure if it will work on a mac. But in linux just type metrics(fps); in a console when starting TT. Think that works in Windows too, been awhile since I used that.

Last edited: Saturday, March 11, 2006 at 2:21:02 PM

@ Triv: any script to specifically augment my Freebie Rate? :o

Eds
No Pic
MM_Lush05r1.mis (Monkee Man)
visibleDistance = "1000";
fogDistance = "300";

Hampsters

cblush1mis (Crapblaster)
visibleDistance = "1600";
fogDistance = "1000";

Muts

Receptor Ridge (Bravetree)
visibleDistance = "1000";
fogDistance = "300";

HBM

Carlisle Wheeling MM_Lush24.mis (MonkeeMan)
visibleDistance = "1000";
fogDistance = "300";

Locos

Charcoal Cresendi charcoalCresendi.mis (Napalm)
visibleDistance = "1600";
fogDistance = "300";

Bugs

Catacomb National Park cnp.mis (Napalm)
visibleDistance = "1000";
fogDistance = "200";

CTB

Sweetwater Bay sweetwaterbay.mis (Napalm)
visibleDistance = "1600";
fogDistance = "300";

I'd be happy to make r1 or r2 versions with changes, but this should be tested before any league mission is changed.
I think Triv has great insight in these types of matters, but lets measure twice and cut once.

I find this a bot confusing because we play on Charcoal Cresendi which has a distance of 1600. One of the highest of the maps. And yet it seems to be a pretty smooth playing map. Of course I have a really good ping to Dash's so I may not see the same things a s others are seeing there. Please let me know of your experience has been something else?
What if you have a 1600 and 300 but there is no terrain to be see outside of the playing area? Sweetwater bay has the backgreound images as part of the sky files. But then there's a couple feet ,or meters of fog. Seems like there are more factors that just these two settings. What about the thickness of the fog at different elevations found in this line?
fogVolume3 = "8 144.9 146";

It gets deeper!!!! Are you frightened yet? :)

Last edited: Sunday, March 12, 2006 at 8:49:00 AM

Good points Nappy. There is no doubt more to it than this parameter. Just hoping there is some basic thing that we are overlooking that would be easy to test.

Regarding Triv's analysis, I can remember that even on stock maps, in early PSL games, lag attacks (i.e. A laggy situation that stayed relatively constant for that set of games) were still somewhat common and unpredictable.

Last edited: Saturday, March 11, 2006 at 7:23:08 PM

In my own uneducated opinion, I think there are many things that can help minimize the lag. Particularly in modding what Triv presents are great points. Both of those paramaeters should be as low as possible. The less distacnes you see the less the video card has to draw. In addition I think if the maps were either built up, or outside the playing area were flat, (basically out-of-sight,) again less for the video cards to draw. Minimizing the objects placed may have a beneficial effect as well. I actually have two or 3 maps that are just lag hazzards. I will have to give them a test and see if the terrains can be performance tuned at all.

I remember when I played with Bryce fog was a killer for rendering... Basically fog is a 3D texture, as opposed to a surface or 2D texture. Remove fog altogether I say.

I get the worst FPMs on Charcoal Cresendi (50s). I get the best on Bravetree's Receptor Ridge (100s). The rest of the PSL maps were about the same (70-80). This was with me and two bots with 50 ping to the MI server.

I wonder if lag is worse when there's 2 or more players with choking hardware and/or high ping that are "out of sync" with each other. The effective lag seems to be an exponential effect as a function of how many offending players there are.

Ironically, Charcoal Cresendi and Sweetwater have the same settings with the exception of the fog. So what's different with Receptor ridge? We'll have to go digging!

I don't know what mis you used, but if you didn't know the mis in psx pack is actually (visibleDistance = "500"; fogDistance = "300";)

Ah, reminds me of the good-ol'days of Homelan;

^ Were there any servers NOT RED?

Oh my. :)

Hillbillies, I have bad news...
[check back on wednesday for completed post]

I say, if you clowns cant get me scores within 5 days, both teams should both get docked 2 points.

LC₅₀ s Pregame Preview, brought to you by Magic 8 Ball

Week 9

LCs picks (28 for 48: 58% accuracy):

Eds @ Hams : Splitsville once again for the Eds and Hams. Eds by 5. Hams by 5.

Billies @ Muts : Muts on a surpising 6-game skid, face rejuvenated Billes. Muts turn it around for Game 1, and win by 6. Game 2: Billies by 1.

Locos @ Bugs : Locos 10-game streaks stops tonight. You heard it here first. Bugs by 2, Locos by 6.

Guest prognosticator of the week: No connection found.

Magic 8 Ball Question of the Week
If lag is the answer, then what is the question?

Magic 8 Balls Answer: Concentrate and ask again.

Last edited: Monday, March 13, 2006 at 6:21:43 PM

@Tally, Bugs beat Eds 1st game 12 to 3. Eds won 2nd game 9 to 4. Something like that. A split night at any rate.

Chart check.

Looks good, Just extend that dark grey line to the 50 mark. That'll work. :)

Someone find LC a good sponsor... B)

This is a very big week. I apologize in advance for any misdeeds that may occur on my team's part between 7 and 8 pm.

HBM @ -64? HAMs 9 pts? Is it the Enron guy whose fixing up the scoreboard?

Below is the MUTTS getting ready to go play the HillBillies on their 'home turf'... FYI they started going down the ladder 2 hours before the scheduled PSL match...

:).

Napalm and his mods... Geez

Tally, check the March 8th match scores for the Bugs vs Eds. The 2nd match was actually 10 - 5 Eds. Racer posted screenies on the screenie thread.

-ACA

^^ I don't get it. Is there a problem with the new map?

It's called "bed of nails."

Relly, what's the problem? ;)

Excellent games tonight!!

Mutombo's and Hillbillies split: 7-7, 6-6. Epic 2 game double-tie match. Really great competitive, intense, strategic, heart-pounding, gentlemenly games that remind me of why this league is so great! I could swear the games seemed to last only 5 minutes each. Seemed like time slowed down. Oh wait - maybe that was due Smokin' J ;). Thanks for the server PREY, seemed lag free and enjoyable for all.

^ ditto. More of that, less of the rest, and mb I'll stick around for another season. :).
time warp magic.

Aye.

We need scores for Bugs vs. Locos!

Last edited: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 at 9:45:58 PM

Bugs won both games. I dont remember exact scores, but I think Racer has screenies.

Interest fading. Spring nearing. Or, maybe it's the three consecutive terribly lag filled games in a row we've played. Not one has been in any way enjoyable. The last three games for us have gone in this order; unplayable server, really bad lag for both teams, and an all tanks with vanishing lag server. Fun, fun, fun. Winning or losing has no merit. I just want one somewhat enjoyable game where I don't feel like puking from staring at a laggy screen for thirty minutes. Please, let's have a server for next season running for months with all PSL 11 eligible maps. I'm hoping we can weed out non-hackers with a few months worth of full servers to check them out. I know there was one up for this seaon but I never saw one full game played in the server. So I guess what I'm saying is taht we need folks like Dash, Roo and whomever else runs a popular TS server to keep the PSL maps in their rotation.

I've one other demand. The Ed's demand that you all stop playing so much. Our mainly part time team doesn't have the hours needed to keep up. Plus, we're in training for this summer's Olympics. Cheer for me in the 50 Meter Drool. I'm also entered in the Get Dressed on Your Own event but don't expect to medal.

Hamsters Sweep!
17-6
9-5
I'm buying the boys a Hamster Brush for some petting! They deserve it... B)

Ed's bus driven home to a sinkhole near you. Cya later Eds! Thanks for the visit! %)

Take away the 9 or 10 consecutive free goals in game two and it would have been a lot closer. :)

Craziest free goal game I've witnessed in a long time. I've never been down 6-1 in under two minutes before and even our lone goal was a freebie.

Last edited: Thursday, March 16, 2006 at 8:15:18 AM

To be deserving of scoring freebies depends on one's outlook on life.
Was the freebie half-full, or half empty?

I've also thought it would be a good idea to have PSL map candidates up for evaluation well in advance of the season.

Just a reminder that the MI servers are hosted from dash's rack in the Michigan data center. Every-other map in the PSL labeled server has been whoever the seeds play next but all the captains have the admin password and are free to give it to any team member they trust. Just skip to whatever map you like by using the restart command.

For PSL-XI I like the mod talk that was going on earlier - find out what's wrong and fix it is a perfectly good motto. Personally, for next season I seem to be wavering between retiring, playing, and captaining. *shakes head* My opinion seems to mainly depend on how our last match went. %)

Stinky britches, she's got dem stinky britchaaaass

Stinky britches, oh she's got those stinky britchassss, yaaaaowww!!