Inspired by the new Pope, I find the differing views on his election and past record interesting. So I'm curious to know how sinner and saint alike feel how religion (in this case, Christianity) should lean, either conservatively or liberally and WHY.

Personally, I lean conservatively, but I'm always open to changing a traditional view if its found to be errant. I don't think faith is supposed to change to reflect the views of a constantly changing world, but be a source of stability and truth. Obviously, there are situations presenting themselves today that weren't directly addressed in scripture, but I think we can look to the "spirit of the law" in those cases. And as I said before, if there is an issue that's based on the King James Version of the Bible that ends up being a traditional or cultural belief, then it should be changed or abandoned.

I feel we need to be a bit more conservative in our interpretation of Scripture since I feel it is in our nature to want to make some things easier on ourselves by lowering the standards presented within the text. Not that salvation has ever been dependent on our performance, just our acknowledgement that we need grace in meeting an unattainable standard of holiness. If the standard is lowered, some may feel they can attain it and earn their way into the pearly gates which has never been the case.

Now let'er fly!

Well JJ, in the context of your original question, it's a state of mind achieved that helps me clarify what perhaps Gods will is for myself or brings me closer to the truth at least. It's also a deepening of my relationship with God. Like taking a walk with Christ. I would mention grace but I don't know if a non-believer would understand the term without experiencing it. It's very real and profound as well.

For example when Bono sings "Your love is teaching me how.. I can kneel" I would imagine it's not some S&M scenario and perhaps he's relating to going farther in a spiritual relationship with God. I can relate to that. It's just what I get from the song and it's energy btw. We do experience Gods love and it's not just by blind faith nor is it something we only assume is there.

Dylan's seems like maybe he's reflecting on perhaps what he saw as messiah as a Jew. It also reflects a second coming of sorts as well or at least a coming. I was hoping to illustrate the non black and white aspects of faith and realization that God's power and will is omnipotent and it's not in our hands to control.

Last edited: Thursday, May 05, 2005 at 4:36:41 AM

@ Az

It is an interesting post. That's a lot of ground you cover.

I am a Merton fan. He was a good poet. His prose is incredible at times. He uses language like Nietzsche used language. For me, occasionally too deep maybe. I last read his stuff quite a while back though. You challenge me to dust off some of it.

By mystical I wonder that you don't mean just insightful? Maybe your mind works so well it just appears mystical, eh?

I have a few comments to make still, but I gotta fold for tonight...

Last edited: Thursday, May 05, 2005 at 4:52:29 AM

@JJ

I'm getting a clearer picture of your point of view. Thanks for that last post. I also have to admit I didn't give "the big N" (as stinkfingers called him) much of a chance. The reading I did gave me the impression that he was pretty heavy handed with his point of view, and I got turned off by that. I still think he's off, but I will give him another run, and see if I can better see his views. I do see valid criticisms in some of his work, though.

And you're right about Christians being "all over the map". I'm not happy with lots that I see.

As far as the mountains, I have the Cascades just east of me, and have spent time in the Sierra Nevadas too. My offroad experience tends to be on foot or canoe, though. Love the mountains.

@all
I am glad to see thoughtful and honest discussions about these views, though. I get good food for thought. I also get to see more perspectives than I will in my day to day conversations. Thanks! This thread has turned into quite a philosophical discussion. Reminds me of college and donut shops...

JJ, I meant mystical. A Christian would understand it in more simple terms but mystical as well. I find aspects of our faith and the Holy Trinity are often hard for others to understand. I used that term to illustrate the profound nature of it in my life at times.

Maybe what your seeing when Merton goes deep or beyond your scope of reasoning is his transcendent knowledge. The creative stirring of his soul from that type of experience and of the monastic life he led in search of it. For me as I get older the parts are easier to put together and it's more fluid in those areas. Revisit it and you may see the same. Also, order 'The Ascent of Mt Carmel' by St John of the Cross for your shop maybe. It's an amazing treatise on the human soul.

Stinky gotta run but wanna respond to you. You sniff'm to make sure?:)

Since you brought up Dylan again:

That Dylan song wasn't from his "conversion period". It was after and some see it as resurrected Bob. Listen to the song and you tell me. How could he recapture his past when "the times they are a changin" anyway ? Lets start a Dylan thread!

Last edited: Friday, May 06, 2005 at 3:20:01 AM

Its always interesting to see where these threads lead.

Anyway, I was asked a few questions that I'd like to respond to.

@Az - Your first question actually takes us back to my intent of this thread, the "liberal" or "conservative" expression of the same faith. Some would feel that Christians are to be very active in social and political issues, effecting change and helping bring about the Kingdom of God. Others feel that the world is basically a lost cause and we're to be getting people ready to meet their maker as we separate from the world. How those ideas are worked out on a individual level is often an expression of how they view the scriptures and their personality. It can also take on several different meanings. Who's humanity to we defend? The unborn or the mother's? The sovereignty of a nation or an oppressed people group? Alcoholics or the people they abuse? I think it is often difficult for people to respond to Jesus' teachings and mission correctly since they're coming at it from so many different directions. That's why I think the conversion process is so important since Jesus often stressed that words that he spoke were spiritual in nature, not natural. When he spoke of a kingdom, it wasn't to build a new nation or free Israel from the Romans, but a spiritual kindgom within the hearts and lives of men. One day the kingdom will be manifested in the natural world, but my conservative view is that it will only happen as a result of God establishing it, not through people bringing it about through their good works.

As far as being adopted, I see that more as being adopted into God's family as a child of Abraham by faith, not necessarily becoming a Jew. Does that make sense? I'm not claiming to be Jewish now though I think knowing more about their faith and heritage helps me to understand my Christian roots better. Christianity was an outgrowth of Judiasm. Most of the early converts were Jews who accepted Jesus as their Jewish Messiah, so the transition from one faith to the other wasn't a big switch, but a culmination of what the OT pointed to and the prophets spoke of coming to pass. Jesus spoke of the children of God being those children of Abraham by faith, not through physical birth. So as I exercise faith in God, I'm adopted into a spiritual family. Now I am opposed to anti-semitism (though some feel Christianity IS anti-semetic) just because I don't feel we should be against any people group, but not because I feel a personal attack when I hear about such things.

@ JJ - Hmm. Interesting question. I think creation was/is created to be good, but I don't think it is what it was initially created to be. Of course, I don't think there's anything evil or wrong with nature and the beauty I see in it. It is inspiring and awesome (though I fail to always see and appreciate it). However, I don't think the truth is found in the creation, but the Creator and His revelation of Himself is in the Bible (IMO). So I guess I have to wonder how is it that the "Bible prism" colors my view that you feel needs to be corrected?

One of my favorite N quotes: Taking a crack at the powerful German intellect: "How much beer there is in German intelligence!"

Work snatched me. I got comments.

@stink - and another thing! ;)

You and others have made mention of following the fears of 3,000 year old shepherds. Well, let's say (for argument's sake) it did start with them. It didn't go directly from them to me, but through many men, through many minds. Isn't it the same with everything? Isn't the knowledge we have today a result of standing on the shoulders of those who preceeded us? Just as Nietzsche, Lennon and others have been mentioned, I could mention Luther, Augustine, Calvin, and Sproul. So I don't really think its fair to continually characterize the Christian faith as the rants of overheated shepherds unless you're willing to say your beliefs are from 40,000yo poo-flinging cro-mags. XD

Sorry guys. I've got nothing to add to the conversation, but this painting for sale on ebay is too darn funny.

The power of the lord!

^ That's jacked up! :o

<Later> OK, this reminds me of the thing folks do with Samson. Whenever you see Samson in movies, he's always huge and muscular. But I don't think that's correct. I think he was very average looking. That's why the Philistines said to Delilah, Seduce him, and see where his great strength lies, and by what means we may overpower him, that we may bind him to humble him." (Judges 16) So it wasn't obvious to anyone where his strength came from. If he were huge like Arnold in Conan , folks really wouldn't have wondered the source of his strength, but as it was, it was mystery to them.

I think the same is true of Christ. ;)

Last edited: Friday, May 06, 2005 at 7:23:44 PM

Why I'm Rooting Against the Religious Right
Save the Republic from shallow, demagogic sectarians.

BY CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS

I hope and believe that, by identifying itself with "faith" in general and the Ten Commandments in particular, a runaway element in the Republican leadership has made a career-ending mistake. In support of this, let me quote two authorities:

* The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100%. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both.... Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some god-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."

* "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother." And he said, "All these have I kept from my youth up." Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

The first citation is from Barry Goldwater, moral founder of the Reagan revolution, who, when I interviewed him on his retirement from the Senate, vowed to "kick Jerry Falwell in the ass."

The second citation is from Luke 18:20-22.

I am neither a Republican nor a Christian, and I don't propose that there is any congruence between Sen. Goldwater's annoyance and the alleged words (which occur in similar form in all four gospels) of the possibly mythical Nazarene. Yet two things are obvious. The first is that many conservatives appreciate the value of a secular republic, and do not make the idiotic confusion between "secular" and "atheist" that is so common nowadays. The second is that no "Moral Majority" type has yet proposed that the most important commandment, the one underlined by Jesus himself, be displayed in courtrooms or schoolrooms. It turns out that the Eleventh Commandment is not "Thou shalt speak no ill of fellow Republicans," but is, rather, a demand for the most extreme kind of leveling and redistribution.

I have never understood why conservative entrepreneurs are so all-fired pious and Bible-thumping, let alone why so many of them claim Jesus as their best friend and personal savior. The Old Testament is bad enough: The commandments forbid us even to envy or covet our neighbor's goods, and thus condemn the very spirit of emulation and ambition that makes enterprise possible. But the New Testament is worse: It tells us to forget thrift and saving, to take no thought for the morrow, and to throw away our hard-earned wealth on the shiftless and the losers.

At least two important conservative thinkers, Ayn Rand and Leo Strauss, were unbelievers or nonbelievers and in any case contemptuous of Christianity. I have my own differences with both of these savants, but is the Republican Party really prepared to disown such modern intellectuals as it can claim, in favor of a shallow, demagogic and above all sectarian religiosity?

Perhaps one could phrase the same question in two further ways. At the last election, the GOP succeeded in increasing its vote among American Jews by an estimated five percentage points. Does it propose to welcome these new adherents or sympathizers by yelling in the tones of that great Democrat bigmouth William Jennings Bryan? By insisting that evolution is "only a theory"? By demanding biblical literalism and by proclaiming that the Messiah has already shown himself? If so, it will deserve the punishment for hubris that is already coming its way. (The punishment, in other words, that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson believed had struck America on Sept. 11, 2001. How can it be that such grotesque characters, calling down divine revenge on the workers in the World Trade Center, are allowed a respectful hearing, or a hearing at all, among patriotic Republicans?)

Then again, hundreds of thousands of young Americans are now patrolling and guarding hazardous frontiers in Afghanistan and Iraq. Is there a single thinking person who does not hope that secular forces arise in both countries, and who does not realize that the success of our cause depends on a wall of separation, in Islamic society, between church and state? How can we maintain this cause abroad and subvert it at home? It's hardly too much to say that the servicemen and -women, of all faiths and of none, who fight so bravely against jihad, are being stabbed in the back by the sunshine soldiers of the "crusading" right. What is one to feel but rage and contempt when one reads of Arabic-language translators, and even Purple Heart-winning frontline fighters, being dismissed from the service because their homosexuality is accounted a sin?

Thus far, the clericalist bigots have been probing and finding only mush. A large tranche of the once-secular liberal left has disqualified itself by making excuses for jihad and treating Osama bin Laden as if he were advocating liberation theology. The need of the hour is for some senior members of the party of Lincoln to disown and condemn the creeping and creepy movement to impose orthodoxy on a free and pluralist and secular Republic.

Last edited: Saturday, May 07, 2005 at 12:51:25 AM

:) Rabby you made my day. Great post.

I was throwin you a fastball, but over the plate. Yeah you make sense to me. I share that with you. Your original statement was a rather raw way to say it & I do understand that too. I find the word Hebrew to be more in tune with what you mean IMO. It's more reflective of a special brotherhood that predates even the temple. Goes farther a bit if you will.

When you replied to JJ with " I don't think truth is found in creation", I think your selling yourself short or maybe not expressing yourself fully.The book Acts (Proverbs too) teaches us something about that. Doesn't it ? Im sure you've found truth in a powerful sermon or homily as well at times ( don't we all ). Does not the creator reveal himself in those around you and people that postdate the Bible in history at times as well? When I look at your reply to Stink am I wrong to suggest to myself that yes indeed he has and you would or maybe do agree?

Last edited: Saturday, May 07, 2005 at 9:06:17 AM

Oh FO FO back on politics

I've been meaning to give you this link. I found it really informational on religious movements and their involvement in US politics and culture.

University of Virginia religious movements website

Last edited: Saturday, May 07, 2005 at 6:47:15 PM

@ Az

I picked up the Seven Storey Mountain today. From an old box in the basement. That guy can write!

Boom!

On your earlier post, pharisees are usually pegged as habitual offenders. The weak or occasional sinner falls for different reasons. So there needs to be some consideration for motive?

I have no problem with mysticism. (As long as we aren't talking about substance-assisted mysticism. No Carlos Castaneda, plz!) It is an individual experience. As a card-carrying Super-naturalist, mysticism is within the range of possibility, though I have never been there. There is certainly a certain magic in the common things too. Hey, I was sucker enough recently to buy one of those sale-table books full of Irish landscape pics. Ireland is incredible, mystical in beauty.

I don't mean to pontificate (no pun to a Catholic) but...

The anti-intellectualism of Christians needs to take a hike. In particular, the tendency to ramble in "Christo-Jargon." Some concepts can't be communicated without particular terms, I admit. But there's too much of the other.

"Black Hole" Christians are those who suck the light out of everything. "The Bible is the only book that I read and it is the source of my joy." Usually said while looking miserable.

I suspect that the source of anti-intellectualism is the so-called "Leap of Faith." Logic and reason and God don't mix? I step but I don't leap. (This is not indirected toward you, Rabban.)

That was an interesting site that Stinker put up and I take this from it: Every human should be humble in the face of creation and respect the divine right that each individual has been given to educate ourselves.

This is, I think, is not as outlandish as it sounds. Just traditional values need to be more intelligently expressed by Christians. We need to learn to enjoy creation more.

Last edited: Saturday, May 07, 2005 at 5:59:36 AM

Now you're covering a lot of ground JJ :) Great quote ty

I brought up the Pharisees in response to your quotation of Christ. Where I was coming from was after a little research and reminder to myself to maybe bring more meaning to the context of the quote.

This excerpt from Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary:

So we see there is quite a division between a Pharisee and a sinner. Sure, sinning is not always necessarily a conscience attempt to be evil or ungodly. But a sin nonetheless. A Pharisee is something else.

In Christ we find salvation. Play the song 'Amazing Grace' in your head, it's that real.

'Consideration of motive' I think is a great expression you gave that could be stated as an examination of self & even social conscience or movement IMO. Who are we serving?

I wasn't meaning to push the mystical. Just trying to express something that does exist in Christian faith. The power of the Father. Son, and Holy Spirit.

For me it is the little things that are the most profound. And those I find as all to common in my life. The Catholic Church would love to have you JJ. Come join us!

Your thought's or your 'pontification' are well taken here. :)

OMG A friend's horse just won the Kentucky Derby! WOOT!

Gots to go :)

Edit: JJ I do get much joy from reading the Bible btw. Although I'm no expert here or anything close, you might enjoy reading Proverbs. A collection verses about wisdom from the wisdom of Solomon.
Proverbs

Last edited: Sunday, May 08, 2005 at 2:31:37 AM

Getting a tad too deep in particulars for me, though great posts from all.

Rabby:

You are missing a vital element with this analogy. My question to you is: how much have luther, augustine, calvin or sproul changed the OT or the NT? How much have they added to or revised the message? They may have been influential in regard to influencing the church, but have they refined the message? Have they questioned, doubted, rejected?

Nietzche didn't take socrates at face value. He even rejected most of what his own mentor attempted to pass on to him. That highlights the big difference between humanism and organized religion...

@Az - The creation is a wonderful expression of God and its wonders inspire awe and spirituality. However, I don't think it is a source of truth. The created world is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. We should say, "Wow, look at what God created. I need to find out more about Him." and then seek out what He has revealed to us in His written revelation. I know the Bible uses examples from nature to make points about God and following Him, but nature by itself sometimes teaches lessons contrary to Scripture. I hope this is making sense. I just wanted to make sure people understood that God is the source of truth, not the place he made for us to live.

@stink - I don't think "my" guys have done much to change the OT and NT, only helped us understand them better and perhaps get past our own misguided interpretations/misunderstandings of scripture. I'd say there are some things they've doubted, questioned and rejected which pretain to how we've understood the text and their implications. I mean, Luther made some points that kicked off the Protestant Revolution. My point was that no one operates within a vaccuum and knowledge builds on previous generations.

@JJ - it is unfortunate that there is a backlash against intellectualism, but there is a sense in the Bible that sometimes God uses the foolish or silly things to mock the wisdom and intelligence of man. So I can see where some people may take that to the extreme and outright reject being brainy at all. Sometimes that IS easier than trying to learn everything about everything. There are some difficult issues within the science vs faith controversy, but I think those issues sometimes transcend the catagories used to describe them. And I personally don't have the time to invest in discovering every nuance of evolution (for example) and competing theories to really understand and argue every point (and I'm a smart enough guy to do so), so I can understand another segment's desire to avoid the whole thing and concentrate of their Bible study. The thing is, if we were all really able to get back the Jesus' message and strip away the new religion/tradition encrusting it, I doubt there would be as much opposition to the core and its followers.

Fire's burning, fire's burning
Draw nearer, draw nearer
In the glowing in the glowing
Come sing and be merry.

--Traditional Campfire Song

Rabby 'the Creation'? Hmm I don't know if I'd describe his divine work as just simply 'expression'. All his work is Holy, isn't it? Genesis page one. I'm not meaning to argue semantics btw. We all express things differently I do realize.

Ducky, :)
We are stardust
We are golden
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

--Joni Mitchell

Last edited: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 at 2:58:19 AM

Azazel-

That's what it's all about

The question is how to get back to the garden. Can I get there through my own effort? Can I do something wonderful enough to get back to the garden? The creation we live in is amazing, and so much is here to learn and do, but can any works undo the fall from the garden? I don't think we can "get ourselves back".

Man's works are not able to pull that off. Christ's works make it possible for mankind to be made ready for a return to the garden, though. (very conservative of me, I know...)

Amen LGM. Well said.

It's a group effort too, know what I mean? In Christ united, but sometimes in America I find my self more divided from other Christians at times. Regardless of the name on our churches I think we all would be better served by not seeing them as borders.

Oh, that's for sure, Azazel. Some of my deepest experiences with God have occurred while visiting/working with other churches. Unfortunately that experience hasn't always been the case. Often, but not always.

If you ever go to Yosemite on a Sunday, the little church in the valley was really great. Nice to worship in a truly beautiful place like a meadow in that stunning valley. It's really great to vacation, visit a church, and have a great time worshipping. Christians need to keep working on that unity piece...

Hoss races and campfires!

Many moons ago, creation was loved by Christians. Scientists did. Now it's Christians vs Science, church vs state, logic vs faith. Or not?

Interesting to listen to Physicist Brian Greene talk about the discoveries in physics: how exciting it is to undercover new things. He accurately, I think, says that he is either uncovering the laws of the universe as it exists with no creator or he is uncovering the laws of the universe that a Creator laid out.

Refreshing. Greene is into creation without any kind of preconceptions.

Creation is indeed a good thing. Logic and reason are indeed a great thing.

The continental divide is between the existence of God and the logical proof of his existence. The right way to say it or not? Is this the situation or not?

As for joining the Catholic Church, Az, I grew up around Catholics. The Catholic school was just down the road. All my friends were Catholics and hated Sister Lawrence. They egged the convent and were caught.

I grew up Episcopalian. My grandparents were hellfire Southern Baptists. I went to church with grandpa and the preacher yelled about sin. I was very young and I said: "Grandpa, we got to leave this church, this man is angry and out of his mind!" I was mystified that grandpa wasn't afraid or upset. Grandparents on other side were from England and very high church Anglican.

I went to college at a Quaker school and finished at a Methodist school. Been in a friends meeting where everyone sat quiet for a whole hour. I had hometown college friends who took me to full-gospel charismatic meetings -- which were the opposite of the Quakers, to say the least.

I had a basketball playing buddy who was the son of a Pentecostal minister. Great jump-shooter. He felt extreme guilt because he couldn't speak in tongues. (Me neither, but I'm not guilty.)

So, I have not seen it all but a lot.

My dad hated religion. He was an Ayn Rand disciple and believer in engineering. Especially liked the capitalist side of Aunt Aynnie. He used to sit in the back of the Episcopalian services and read the prayer book. "Look how they figured out the holidays! It based on the moon cycles!"

Last edited: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 at 4:53:54 AM

You guys are tune-ish.

Who wrote this and what do you think:

The truth is a river
Where the strong can swim down deep
And the weak and the broken
Can walk across so easily

@ Az...

I LOVE that song...one of the first I learned to play on the guitar...the dilemma is, do you play the Joni Mitchell version or the Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young version? Depends on the mood...

And I dreamt I saw the bombers
Riding shotgun in the sky
Turning into butterflies
Above our nation...

Brilliant.

-ducky

Ducky, I just listen to 'em back to back sometimes. Spliced with no break, it sounds awesome. Joni's voice like the angel of peace, I hear 'hope'. CSNY recorded it post the Kent State massacre (so I've been told). Neil's guitar kicks in and adds 'urgency' to it.

JJ, I've been around a few churches too. Well, you have me beat by a long shot lol. That's a great story. Nice verse too. I liked that. Eh I had to feed it to google to get the artist.

I've only become a Catholic as of Easter. When I started to read Merton and others years ago I felt something inside me start to clarify so I pursued it. John Paul II greatly inspired me as well.

That is a refreshing concept you quoted btw. A man of science admitting that even he scratches his head once in awhile and looks up.

Father Thomas Berry is a Catholic monk who's stirred my thoughts recently in the areas of earth, ecology & spiritual science.

Is man & the modern world becoming a natural force of destruction?

LGM, I so appreciate you saying that you experience the presence of God on a deep level at times. I share that with you and only hope that others will relate to it as well. Maybe I'll make it to Yosemite one sunday.

That perfect knowledge
was of peace and holiness
held at no remove
in profound solitude;
it was something so secret
that I was left stammering,
transcending all knowledge.
-- St John of the Cross

Last edited: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 at 10:35:25 AM

HEELLLLLOOOOOO WHITE PEOPLE
Lol Best thread I've read at PTT. Anyone see that?

Last edited: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 at 10:53:44 AM

@Az - I think I have to agree with Memphis on this one. When God created, it was "good", not perfect. I'm not really sure I get where you're coming from when you say "All his work is Holy, isn't it?". If I just read that straight out, it puts us into a long discussion. :) Is the creation divine? Is it worthy of devotion? I don't think so.

This is where I'm coming from. His power and divine nature are shown in his creation, what he has made, but man started to worship the birds, fish and animals instead of the God who created them. The passage is part of the "history of man's rebellion" found in Romans, and talks about how man turned from God and how he responded to that and what the consequences were. Hopefully you'll have a little better understanding of where I'm coming from on this one.

Yeah I understand where your coming from there. Thats a nice verse to wake up to today btw Rabby TY.

What it speaks to about honor and giving thanks, that's where I was coming from. Make sense?

When you said:

Lol Are you misunderstanding me that way? Heh I'm not promoting animism or pagan worship. I hope thats not the conclusion you drew. I was expressing a humble heart. Or at least trying to.

When I said 'Holy works', Rabby, I meant that literally as to what he has revealed to us in scripture. But also to witness the work of Christ in those around you too.

Can you meet me there?

Last edited: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 at 7:32:01 PM

Well...sure!

Great.

Interesting perspectives on nature, Rabban and Az.

I fully expected the reactions...but I don't say that out of cockiness. Whenever I talk about nature with others, I get the you-are-into-godless-nature accusation. This attitude against nature runs in Christian circles.

As an example, my wife manned a environmentalist information booth not too long ago. She got "the business" from a Christian type about her being weak-minded liberal. Unfortunately, he picked the wrong person to pick on. She started after him about some of the things Berry mentions in your ^ quote.

What I am looking for is a "synthesis" of views about nature and the supernatural. (For those of us in the cause-and-effect world, "synthesis" is a nasty word, but I'll use it this once!) I stand by this: If God created it, it is good. And, to quote you, Az, it is nice to see someone looking up. It is unfortunate that non-Christians do more of it sometimes.

This is actually pretty simple, common sense stuff if you reflect -- I repeat again.

How about this quote from Merton about a family's love for him when he was a small boy: "It did not burn you, it did not hold you, it did not try to imprison you in demonstrations, or trap your feet in the snares of its interest."

I got more to mention, but I got woooooooooooooorrrrrrrrkkkkkk........I'm melting, I'm meeeeelting....laters.

Last edited: Friday, May 13, 2005 at 5:56:59 AM

Nature. One of my ways to get focused on God. I get what JJ is saying about some not understanding how nature can lead people toward God. (or I suspect we have a case of misunderstanding each other's initial statements about this, but being on common ground...)

I've got a book recommendation for you. It's a book called Sacred Pathways- Discover Your Soul's Path to God by Gary L. Thomas.

In the book, Thomas describes 9 different pathways people use to experience worship. One of them is called "the Naturalist". For me, this is one of my "sacred pathways". The other pathways Thomas describes as:

the Naturalist- who is most inspired to love God out-of-doors by being in a natural setting.

the Sensate- who loves God with the senses -- through awareness of taste, smell, touch, sight, and sound.

the Traditionalist- who loves God through ritual and symbol.

the Ascetic- who prefers to love God in solitude and simplicity.

the Activist- who loves God through contributing toward justice and the enhancement of life in the world.

the Caregiver- who loves God by loving others.

the Enthusiast- who loves God with mystery and celebration. (The term 'enthusiast' is derived from a Greek root-word which means God-filled.)

the Contemplative- who loves God through contemplation.

the Intellectual- who loves God with the mind.

It's an interesting read.

Last edited: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 at 4:42:27 PM

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2829&page=0

Aynn Rand + genius, minus capitalism = Nietzsche.

T: I think the coming apocolypse is comforting to some...

Last edited: Friday, May 13, 2005 at 9:46:14 PM

LGM: I thought about this: "the Activist- who loves God through contributing toward justice and the enhancement of life in the world."

But what about this guy: "the Republican Talking Point - one who expresses his love for God by supporting status quo, pro-big business, anti-working class and poor, anti-education, anti-environment, pro-war texas oil millionaires and their crooked cronies"

That ought to cover a few of our more prominent posters, and alleged "christians." not very christ-like...such rabid republicanism.

You can take my life, but you cannot take my jesus weapons :).

Wow.

For those of you who haven't: Read "Mere Christianity", C.S. Lewis. In the meantime I'll be going over this thread en toto...

@ Ben-

I wish you luck. This thread has been all over the map philosophically... And you have a good recommendation for reading.

@ stink-

Here's an ad that may clear up my point of view on Christianity and politics. LINK

Christians don't come out of a cookie cutter. There's room for individual points of view, but the essential beliefs remain. Those core beliefs I laid out way back in the thread are the key. There's room for many points of view on other issues.

As far as:

The guy you describe wouldn't be what I expect of a brother. I'm oppposed to them on all the issues you mention above. I abhor using Christianity as a front for political gains. The sad thing is that some believe they're helping in those ways. I believe a political party has been strategizing for years to create the mess we're in now. They've attempted to co-opt Christianity to advance their policies. It deeply dissapoints me. People falling for it makes me sick.