Anyone paying attention to this bullsh%t? Check this out:

A group of far-right Bush allies released an ugly and outrageous ad which claims that John Kerry faked his injuries, betrayed his troops, and "dishonored his country" in Vietnam. The ad features people who say "I served with John Kerry" (although they didn't) and who make numerous provably false accusations about Kerry's war record. It's one of the most vile tactics seen yet in Bush's ferociously negative campaign.

The "Swift Boat" ad is so far beyond the pale that even Senator John McCain, a Bush supporter, spoke out about it, calling it "dishonest and dishonorable." Yet despite Senator McCain's request that President Bush "specifically condemn" the ad, Bush refuses to say anything about it.

It's clear that the ad continues the tradition of Bush campaign dirty tricks. In a recent interview, Senator McCain noted that the ad "was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me" in 2000. McCain was referring to a vicious smear campaign -- which included race-baiting allegations that he had a black child our of wedlock -- run by close Bush allies in 2000. In fact, the same firm that ran some of the anti-McCain ads in 2000 produced the "Swift Boat" ad. And although the group claims to be independent of the Republican party, the group's funding mostly comes from a longtime Bush supporter who gave over $20,000 to his campaigns for Texas governor. Further, today it was announced that one of the subjects in the ad is a member of the Bush-Cheney campaign's veterans steering committee.

The "Swift Boat" campaign is a classical political hit job. But even before the ad went on the air, the Washington Post ran a piece discussing how President Bush is running the most negative presidential campaign in U.S. History. In an article titled "From Bush, Unprecedented Negativity," the Post quotes an expert who says that "there is more attack now on the Bush side against Kerry than you've historically had in the general-election period against either candidate."

Discussing the "Swift Boat" ad, Senator John McCain said, "I deplore this kind of politics." Nebraska Governor Mike Johanns (R) called the ad "trash" and even Pat Buchanan said "not a single charge is substantiated... I think the ad is wrong." But George Bush won't condemn it.

Jim Rassman, a Republican veteran who served under Kerry, recently wrote an opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal. He told the story of how Kerry saved his life. And he concluded with these words on the "Swift Boat" veterans: "[W]hen the noise and fog of their distortions and lies have cleared, a man who volunteered to serve his country, a man who showed up for duty when his country called, a man to whom the United States Navy awarded a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts, will stand tall and proud. Ultimately, the American people will judge these Swift Boat Veterans for Bush and their accusations. Americans are tired of smear campaigns against those who volunteered to wear the uniform.

Swift Boat Veterans for Bush should hang their heads in shame.

Er...by that I mean that a vote for nader is a vote for bush...i don't mean that nader is a moron...far from it.

I put on my kitchen mittens and safety goggles and picked up Stinks list. But it was np.

Interesting that you call it an economic list, because that is what it is.

Items 11 and 12 are givens, though. And 6 and 13 are general philosophy. Only 20, the universal health care, is beyond reach, I thought. Health care is too tangled. Similar to what TMO said about Iraq. We are where we are, and we have got to go from here, not start over.

The list would be a good way to make both candidates define their platforms. How will they maintain each point in the next four years. Maybe you should email them to both parties.

I want candidates to list of their platform promises or doctrines.

Youre right in saying that Kerry needs to speak out. Neither candidate needs to slip off now or hide behind Swift vet-type attention.

@ Chief

Dont let Stink and Tally scare you. The breath is worst than the bite. Sharp minds. I imagine Stink ruins a keyboard a week. :)

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 1:07:52 AM

Listening to Rudi now, he is picking on Kerry for equivocating...

JJ: damn, can you really smell it from there? Egads! Let you in on a lil' secret: dat's not my breath!!!

In regards to healthcare -- why unattainable? Most european countries have it...are we too backward?

To both JJ and Chief...i feel a great deal of my ire is misdirected...i suddenly feel more at peace after lashing out at the DNC (see post a bit above). I feel that in some strange way, G W Bush is really their fault. Perhaps four more years of responsibility shirking, pro-business, religious pandering, fear mongering, deficit burgeoning, gay bashing, science skewering, war starting, civil rights eating, job out-sourcing REGRESSION is just what the DNC have coming for their lack of vision.

Hear this DNC: we don't need half-assed republics...the real thing is bad enuff.

Doncha think?

It's the DNC and his handlers' fault because they kept Gore in a box, playing the not-Bush card.
It didn't work for him either, shame because he has more grey matter and personality than GB2 does - to a factor; they just didn't want us to see it.
Someone must have suggested to them that running for higher office here isn't a personality contest, that it has something to do with substance.
Obama 2008.

Genius!

No one can cover as much ground in as few words as the enigmatic mr. Ho...

I didn't read much of this but I'ma say this aloud I HATE BUSH I THINK HE'S GAY THOSE WHO AGREE GOOD THOSE WHO DISAGREE GO SUK...
bush if u here this it wasn't me....

Just as an FYI - maybe you think I'm gullible enough to believe all the spin, that Hussein was behind 9/11 with bin Laden as his flunky.

Buzzzz!! Try again!

Perhaps many people in America do. I've never heard anyone say it, but then again, one of my best friends is a polysci/sociology degree. And I'd certainly correct them if I heard them say it. I lived in Saudi for 5 years as a teenager, not far from the Kuwaiti border. I even speak a little bit of Arabic from those jr high-school years. I'm hardly an expert on the region or the people though - we foreigners had our own schools and residential areas - other than shop clerks we had very little contact with them.

There were a dozen Iranians at the high school I attended though. Their fathers were influential enough or lucky enough to get them out of the country so they could avoid the Iran-Iraq war that was going on at the time. One of them was my roommate for most of my first year there. We got along alright, but we weren't bosom buddies or anything. Sometimes you have to wonder what happened to them after high school... I had a Turk roommate for part of the 11th grade. I got along better with him than with the Canadian roommate I had later on that year.

I'm pretty sure I've also mentioned that my father-in-law is in Baghdad right now, and has been for over a year. I think his contract is up somewhere around the end of the year. I don't think that I've mentioned that I gave him a copy of my resume to take with him. If he runs into anybody looking for someone with my qualifications, he's welcome to hand out copies of it. Evidently there was someone interested just last week. Nothing may come of it, or something may. Unknown at this point.

So, feel free to paint the American public as totally ignorant of everything regarding 9/11 and the Middle East. Just remember not to include me in that list in your head.

JJ, Master, Chief....

What do you guys think of this? is it true? I read that stuff and thought...it made sense. Perhaps these necons have high-jacked the conservative agenda? These neocons seem to be a completely different animal altogether...nothing like reagan.

I mean I read some of it and actually agreed! I've never experienced that with neo-con philosophy...and they seem capable of rational thought....like their world and mine actually intersect...

Whenever I read or experience the neocons, I feel like I'm living in some dystopia dreamed up by orwell or huxley, or as seen in terry gilliam's Brazil...such a nightmare of unmitigated belief in the power of the state to decide what is best for the unreasoning, flinching masses.

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 2:05:05 AM

Interesting... I've never paid a whole lot of attention to the internal politics of either group. I'd always gotten the impression that Buchanan was a far-right pol. Interesting that he paints himself here as more moderate...

Just as an FYI - I personally am anti-isolationism, pro-free trade (within limits), pro-immigration (also within limits). Not sure where that puts me on the political spectrum.

btw - to abbreviate my name, just use TMO. Master seems too S&M. ;)

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 2:05:21 AM

Oi! Master, that comment was aimed a bit at chief who mentioned that BS somewhere above...and for fans of fox news...the rest of the US -- that leaves around 50% have heard that message so often by now that they've junked it.

In terms of the american public being ignorant...just take a look around you. The numbers of strip malls being developed for megacorporations, the number of walmarts opening, the number of small businesses closing, the number of people pointing their fingers at teachers, the number of jobs being sent overseas, the number of people lining up to file unemployment extensions,the number of body bags coming back from iraq, the number of people lining up to vote for the chance to discriminate against gays, the amount of farm land being turned into development of second homes, the number of SUVs, the number of prisons being built, the amount that profit margins for ceos have increased while employment decreases... All hint at a nation of well fed knuckle walkers.

Ps. Please don't go to iraq...why would you?
pps. Your not on the list!

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 2:23:08 AM

Oh, yearh...i have heard both bush and cheney claiming recently, despite the preponderance of evidence to the contrary, etc. Etc. Etc.

Again: how is this not impeachable?

Oh, don't worry - I'll only go to Iraq if I'm confident the risks have been minimized and the rewards are worth it. I have a wife to think about, after all; and I plan on being around to start a family. My father-in-law has been in security his whole adult life, he'll be able to advise me properly on anything that comes up. I have no intention of dying over this. ;)

As for the american public being ignorant, that has been the cry for decades, if not centuries. But you've got me confused - Wal-mart = ignorant? If I can buy my goods in one place, spend less time getting them, and pay no more, or maybe even less for them, I'm ignorant? I thought that was being cost-conscious or frugal.

Jobs going overseas... Here I'm mixed. I've already said I'm anti-isolationist and more pro-free trade. Overseas workers ARE cheaper than American workers. It also helps improve the standard of living over there somewhat as they're earning more than they could otherwise. But there's a limit to how much we can afford to send, and how much is wise to send. I'm not an economist, I don't know what the right levels would be...

Voting on gay marriage - another tough spot for me... Personally, I don't see any problems with allowing it. My wife and her family are all religious right and oppose it. My sister is gay (married in Canada). Fortunately, neither side is intolerant. They disagree on the point, they know it, but they don't argue over it.

SUV's: That's what I drive. I drove a 2-door Explorer for 9 years. 250,000 miles on it. I got about 20 mpg on it (I only do highway driving). I just bought a Buick Rendevous earlier this year. It gets up to 26 mpg on the highway. I actually tend to average 22-23 with it per tank of gas, though. Why do I drive SUV's rather than cars? I'm 6'2, 250lbs, and I HATE dropping down into tiny vehicles and having to lever myself up out them. I'd rather just slide in and out. My wife is 6'1 with bad knees and a bad back (too much basketball).

The # of prisons being built: one of the problems of having more criminals, I guess. J/k. XD Actually, one question I have is: is the ratio of criminals/citizen changing? Our population is larger than ever before; therefore, the number of criminals should be larger than ever before as well, if the % of population has stayed the same. This is more my wife's field though. She just finished her degree in Criminal Justice, specializing in Juvenile Rehabilitation. Her father runs prisons for a living.

CEO compensation: I agree with you here. That's an industry that I would guess should collapse upon itself within another 10 years or so. I see no reason to pay some guy who's run 2 other businesses into the ground hundreds of millions of dollars to do the same to my company. I think there's a bunch of them that should be following Mr. Lay and Mr. Ebbers...

Education: Yup. Sorely lacking. You won't catch me arguing there. I have no kids at this point, so it's not something I've spent a lot of time worrying over yet for my family, but it does need fixing. I may have to go the home-schooling route in the future. Unknown though.

Fox News: I don't watch TV. My primary sources of the news nowdays are various chat rooms, Yahoo News (when I check my email I check the headlines as well), and US News and World Report - which seems to do a decent job of having reporters of both inclinations in it.

Body bags from Iraq: This is going to seem a little callous - but if you weren't willing to be shot at or shoot at whoever our government tells you to, then you probably shouldn't have joined the military. That doctor in the reserves who refused to go to the first Gulf War deserved far worse than she got, IMO. When you join the military, you sign a little paper that says the government has the right to put you in harm's way, and that you will shoot at whoever they tell you to. Did I ever join the military? Nope, but not for those reasons. I hated the idea of boot camp. I don't like hazings and refused to even consider joining a frat for those reasons. Boot camp seemed like nothing more than one big hazing to me. Now that I'm older, my main concern is that I don't necessarily mind being told what to do (no one who works can avoid it), but I like to be able to ask WHY I'm doing something. Asking Why in the military is a seriously BAD thing. ;) Back on topic, you already know I'm against evacuating Iraq. (Oh, I should probably add that my first job involved contracting to the Army. A job opportunity I've got to review this week would return to that.)

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 2:52:30 AM

Well, THAT took me past bed-time. :) Night all!

LOL Stink! You need to stop dissin' the DNC. You are in danger of becoming downright mellow.

Interesting TMO.

I don't pay too much attention to Buchanan. Lots of verbiage. There is a big difference in what people say and what they do .

As far as the power of the state, more government bureaucracy is no answer.

I want legislation against lag.

I nominate the Slug. His platform is definite at least. No diving and reduced ammo loads if you do. Jive around and be booted!

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 3:37:01 AM

G'night...when you wake up, consider dis:

Cause and effect:

Walmart: there's a reason its cheap...its been manufactured abroad, sometimes by children living in squalor. No protection for workers (unions) no protection for environment...effect? Environmental degradation and child explotation, also people living in regulated societies can't compete...ma and pa businesses go out of business: downtown business can't compete with large lot businesses, downtowns stagnate, crime increases...:walmart employs get paid a fraction as much as they made when they, the employees, operated their own ma and pa businesses...there is a serious cost to your saving a couple of dollars. Which brings us to:

Jobs going overseas...see above. The effect of sending jobs to the lowest bidder is the universal devaluing of labor. Now, to be competitive, the u.s. Worker has to work harder (aka: increase productivity) for less money. But what of the u.s. Ceo? His profit margins increase when he sends production overseas...he makes more money. More money comes into the company coffers, more money comes into the hands of share holders, but the working men and women see none of it...they line up to pick up unemployment benefits because they been outsourced. Ceos and stock holders become richer, working class people lose production jobs, and go get jobs making rich people triple, skinny, no whip lattes. Sans health care.

Suvs: damn, you guys are big!...well, then that makes a bit of sense. But the obvious objection is that they are gas guzzlers...effect: greater demand on foreign oil; effect: greater dependence on foreigners; effect: increasing clamour to tap into potential oil reserves in the us; effect: sayonara anwar.

Bodybags: you are right about that bit...sign up and go...but two points...1) lets not squander their lives. Soldiers aren't toys...putting them in harm's way should be our last option...they are our children, our sons, husbands, daughters...lets not send them to die for a lie; 2) this isn't only the realm of soldiers, whether or not to go to war is a question for the entire society...

Blah blah blah...can you tell I'm bored?

JJ: Mellow? Naw, I was just remembering why it was that I became an independent...

As to the difference between saying and doing...consider the monkey, bush: talks center; acts far right.

And have you seen the numbers on bushes govnmnt expansion? Its hilarious! He has grown government faster than any president in history! What a hypocrit!

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 3:40:36 AM

Take a week off.

Kick over the trash cans at the local Republican headquarters and scatter the trash around. Make it look like you found incriminating evidence.

Then put some of the more important looking, unshredded paperwork in and around the Democratic headquarter's trashcans. Call them and ask them why they have Republican garbage and were they looking for an idea to suggest to Kerry for a platform...

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 3:49:31 AM

Out F standing!!

Walmarts kill the economy. Its the trickle effect. The micro-problems from failing small businesses trickle into massive macro problems.

I manage a animal feed store (shi**y job I know)

I dont carry certain brands of pet food or ag food because I cannot compete. The wholesalers I buy from all give quanitity discounts. Walmart buys a semiload (or more) at a time and gets that price. I cant store or sell that much fast enough to afford to buy that quantity. So I get only what I know I can sell (JIT inventory system). Sucks because I buy the products from wholesalers at about the same price as the walmart type places retail it for!!

Screw iraq. There are people I want to fight HERE IN THE USA.

B

Assuming peak engine efficiency, TMO burned approximately 12,500 gallons of gas in his previous vehicle. :) Impressive...
BTW: Ne'er be surprised when extremist views are buried by a centrist face { (dictator of your choice) probably didn't stand up and announce his intentions to the public }. There's more support in the middle than there is anywhere else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buchanan and/or google "buchanan anti-semitic"

When I hear the name pat buchanan, I cringe. If you think he's centrist, then O'Reilly is right, and Krugman is a pinko commie.

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 4:36:17 AM

Denks for the goods tally...i knew dat sounded to good to be true.

Some of those quotes are pretty remarkable. It's more remarkable that the guy still has a platform.
Cable news has a lot of time to fill.

( Obama 2008 :) )

Stink - you're right about the unregulated economies that treat their workers like disposable garbage being able to make things cheaper than regulated economies. That's where the limits on my free trade idealism show up. ;) I have no objections to paying foreign worker fair compensation for their work. I object to paying their governments for running sweatshops. I try to buy domestic where possible, but that's not practical for most purchases. I can't remember what it was we were comparing, but one time we looked at 6 different models: Made in China, China, China, China, China and Mexico. We bought the Mexican model. XD

Give me an alternative vehicle that's not a tuna can, and I'd be happy to drive it. I am not driving an SUV for the social status (I'm a computer geek - I spit on social status ;) ) - I'm driving it because it's what I'm most comfortable in and it fits my needs. I drive about 40 miles to work every day, one way; and it's all highway miles. The new car is exceedingly comfortable, and gets good gas mileage (comparable to stationwagons and minivans, and better than many of those - and blows those bigger things out of the water). Granted, your rubberband cars get much better gas mileage, but the hole I'd have to punch in the roof and the door to fit in it would increase the wind resistance something fierce. ;) I got into a Samurai Sidekick once, 10 years ago when I was shopping. My left arm was pressed flush against the door. My right arm was moving into the passenger seat space. That's exactly what I want to drive for the next 10 years!! At least my head wasn't brushing the ceiling.

Also, you're implying that I'm a huge gas waster with the numbers above. I drove the Explorer for 9 years - back when I bought it, 30mpg was what many tuna cans were getting.. 250,000 miles later (not that it matters, I bought it used. It already had 50k on it when I bought it. I only put 200k on it myself), they burned approx 8300 gallons of gas. Yep, there's a difference. But first, anybody who does a lot of driving is going to burn a lot of gas. Second, I had to pay for that extra gas. I'm frugal. Show me a viable method to bring my costs down, and I'd be happy to take it.

Man, does this insane comment fit with today's politics or what! People are calling Kerry weak because he wishes to negotiate. Simple-minded idiocy.
- BombJames Bomb

You can't negotiate with religious fanatics bent on destroying our culture. (I should know. ;) )

In general fanatics are difficult to negotiate with. They tend to have an 'all or nothing' approach to it. "Give me everything I want, and perhaps I'll give you a little of what you want... If I feel like it."

Wow, what a great thread!!! It took me about an hour to go thru and read it all the way thru. Phew... I can't believe I didn't catch this one earlier... LOL

I personally agree with Michael More. Not necessarily because of Fahrenheit 9/11, but also because I follow foreign media, rather that US media and have a better understanding of the worlds view of George W. Than most of my fellow Americans.

I understand what Rudy Giuliani was saying last night about playing offence rather than defense with the terrorists. I also agree with the fact that the world is a safer place without people like Saddam Hussein in power. But I believe there's a right way of doing things and there's a wrong way of doing things. Bush has done things the wrong way from day one.

First off, he CHEATED his way into office! The people of America elected Al Gore to be president in the 2000 election! It was GW's golfing buddies in the Supreme Court and the Republican Held senate that thru out the peoples votes and granted the position to Bush!

Secondly, the Bush administration discarded vital documents that warned of the September 11th attacks! It is my firm belief that if Gore was in office (as he should've been), there's a good chance that what happened on September 11th would've NEVER happened in the first place!!!

If it did happen, Gore would've gone after the people who were truly responsible, The Saudi Arabians!!!

YES, it was the Saudi's who attacked us on September 11th, NOT THE IRAQI'S!!! Osama Bin Laden is Saudi Arabian and it was the Saudi Monarchy that protected the Bin Laden family during the wake of September 11th!!!

Where the hell is Osama Bin Laden now? I can tell you where his brother was on September 11th, 2001! In Washington DC attending a meeting with non other than George Bush Sr.!!! Why the hell couldn't we interrogate the Bin Laden family to help authorities locate Osama? Because they're protected by the Saudi Monarchy, and the Saudi Monarchy is feeding HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars into the Bush family trust on a yearly basis!!!

The American people pay GW Bush $450,000 a year to be the President of the United States. The Saudi Monarchy pays GW Bush MILLIONS of dollars a year to be their puppet!!!

In fact, S. Hussein, (as wicked and evil as he is) posed absolutely NO threat to the US what so ever! Yet who did we go after? Bush used Sept. 11th as an excuse to finish the job his dad started. He sacrificed thousands of young American solders in the Iraqi war for the benefit of his own pocket book! Those young American solders were ordered to slaughter tens of thousands of INNOCENT Iraqi citizens. Meanwhile, Osama Bin Laden is enjoying a feast at one of his sisters wedding under the protection of the Saudi government! IT'S DOCUMENTED FACTS PEOPLE!!! NO BS!!!

When it comes time to vote on November 2nd 2004, your choice will be very simple!

If you want to be responsible for World War 3! Vote for Bush...

If you want JUSTICE for what happened on Sept. 11th 2001 and a better quality of life for the jobless parents and starving children living right here on America soil, Vote for Kerry.

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 6:24:43 PM

http://www.thememoryhole.org/feds/justice_redaction.htm

And did you guys watch the convention? Apparently, there is only one issue in this election: that is TERROR!!!

BE VERY AFRAID.....

Vote for the guy who made things worse, the guy who instigated a fight that has been rightly percieved by the muslim world as an attack against islam, and has further provided support to all radical extremists.

Reminder: no link to al qaeda, no WMD....all you have is revisionism justifying a "humanitarian" war. Too bad the christians in sudan don't have any oil...maybe we'd liberate them also....seeing as they are being killed by the hundreds of thousands while george w does nothing.

Anyway...forget everything and vote terror, like a good citizen.

And now monkey bush is explaining what he meant when he said "the war on terror is unwinnable."

Now, can he explain what he meant when he said, "Peance Freeance?"

Still voting for this moron?

The basic premise of their reelection campaign is that they are the team that can defeat the "terror war," one which began beneath their noses, probably due to their negligence. I find this premise dubious. What courage to promote that horrific event as a feather in their cap.

Forgive me TMO, but this sounds an awful like our current administration...unilateralism, go-it-alone, preemptive, patriot act, enron energy policy, constitutional ammendments, flouting the geneva convention, not consulting colin powell re: iraq...never has there been less democratic presidency. Could you imagine trying to negotiate with g w?

In regards to not being able to find anything that's made in america...that is at least in part the effect of global competition...if you want to see the made in america label come back, you gotta quit buying the cheap, slave shop junk...read: quit shopping at walmart!

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 7:56:20 PM

@SteAlth - I have a link to a website covering the 59 Fallacies of Fahrenheit 9/11, including the points you mentioned above. The article was written by a Nader supporter (just like Moore is). I'll link it later tonight for you to peruse at your leisure.

@Stink - you might be right. I'm not voting based on any of that though. My typical voting pattern is to vote against incumbents, unless I have an overriding reason to do otherwise. IIRC, I voted Bush over Dukakis, Clinton over Bush, and Bush over Gore. I think I got to the polls too late for the Clinton/Dole vote.

Rabban:

true, but not true in this case...

This childish notion is the rhetorical trick gw played on americans to re-route cause and effect. Let me fill you in: they don't hate us "BECAUSE WE ARE FREE." this should be obvious....or else they would have attacked switzerland, or the netherlands...etc. THEY HATE US:
1) because we keep US troops in their country
2) because we support the draconian monarchy in saudi arabia
3) because we use force to exert influence in the region
4) because we support israel to the detriment of the palestinians

But I will admit, they also seem to hate us because they are religious fanatics....of course, it seems to me, we give them more and more reason to feel alienated and powerless to control their own destinies by propping up brutal governments like saudi arabia, and by providing israel with the bullets and the tanks that kill palestinian children. Now we've given them an even greater reason to hate us: we chose to attack a muslim country based on fabricated rationale.

Seeing as how it was largely saudi arabians (not a single iraqi) who flew into the WTC, why are the saudis considered such a vital ally? Why does the saudi arabian government, who consider bush family, hate us? And why doesn't bush care?

Holy shit! This thread has gone in about 60 different directions in less than 48 hours......

(reading and typing.......)

First of all, the Saudi government is hated by bin Laden almost as much as we are. He is an exile from that country, I believe.

Second, a quote I read somewhere that has no relation to this situation, but seems strangely applicable: "It's hard to keep the masses faithful when the heathens next door live better than your Paradise."

Nice quote, TMO! Man, this thread gets so much material every hour that it's getting hard to keep up! Some of the literary content in this thread makes my newspaper feel like a comic book. Keep it up!

(Ummmm....nothing to comment on right now. I've pretty much established my position on all of this.)

- BombJames Bomb

Assuming that being so, then why does "the arab street" still buy the bullshit?

TMO: dats part of my point...al qaeda loathe the saudi govmnt -- and hate us all the more for our support and defense of it...ie. Dats part of WHY THEY HATE US....not that feeble "they hate us because we're free" and that escapist "they hate us for our culture" crap I keep hearing of Faux News.

@stink - my comment on the Saudi govt was aimed at this quote from you:

I'm not saying that the Saudi's are without fault in this whole thing. Depending on who you read they may be indirectly to blame for the whole thing by their establishment of Wahabbist schools across the Middle East. I was merely establishing that the person directly responsible for 9/11 is *not* with the Saudi govt but, in fact, wants to destroy it too.

If anyone wants to understand these they need to go back to Tally Hos post immediately after mine of on Sunday, 29Aug @ 0004.

@ Tally

Sorry if I came off as an asshole. Must have been the bad shrimp talking.

Regarding W and Kerrys comparative war records.its turned into a he said she said situation.surprise surprise. I think if all of us, as voters, are to give one the benfit of the doubt then the other should get it to assuming were all objective here (right).

Nonetheless at this point I think there is so much bullshit and spin wrapped up in the Vietnam argument that its pointless to pursue.

I would like to go on record thanking ALL of our armed forces, past and present, active, National Guard, and Reserve, for their service to OUR country.

That being said, it seems that both the Bush campaign and Kerrys campaign has members that have worked for Swift Vets and Moveon.org. The only difference I see is when the conflicts of interest arise on the GOP side, those individuals are removed. Why is this not happening with Kerrys camp? (serious question)

@ JJ

Okay. I was just trying to be a nice guy (believe it or not).may have POSSIBLY been trying to get him to vote for W until I figured out that whatever he/she is is allegedly Australian. (figures)

@ stinky

No need to apologize I knew you werent calling me moron (at least not yet) where you were going in that post.just thought I would take the test. (was curious if the wife was right all along anyway.)

Truth be told, we all probably think each other are crazy as hell anyways

@ JJ

I agree - Rumsfeld needs to shut up and defend the damn country. While I admire what he has tried to do in trying to bring efficiency to the military, and deserves kudos on managing post-9/11 operations (yall dont start), he deserves everything he has coming to him for trying to get into the political side of it.

RE the Democratic Party trying to hook Ginsberg to Bush I guess they look at it the same way that Republicans view Mikhail Moorichev? (stand back this is going to get hot)
@ Bolo

Right on brother Kerry all the way!
(wait a minute did I say that?)

@ JB

RE Kerry

He never cut-out of his duty, he says what he believes (even at the cost of his image), and the man is not a puppet of his advisors (less chance of being pulled both ways by corporate influences).

Are we talking about the same guy??

@ Ge0rge

I was referring to the fact that because the DNC felt like there was too much risk of her losing 2004 to GW, they went in search of anyone that had the chance to beat Bush.

By the way has anyone sent the video of Daschles lastest campaign commercial where hes HUGGING GW??? LOL Talk about trying to come to the center

@ stinky

Youre not high thats partly what I was trying to get at in my Hillary comment.

Look I really think yall are being hosed by your party. There are MANY MANY more qualified Democrats out there than the current ticket a few I would actually consider voting for.

@ Zeonic

Nader needs to decide if hes running for office in the United States or Iraq.

@ JJ

Kitchen mitts and safety goggles LOL!!!!!

(donning mine now perhaps too late)

Again I have become physically exhausted driving to Cocoa FL on Thursday, and having bad shrimp for lunch (not going into details what the implications were), and then TRYING to drive back to SC Friday afternoon. After stopping at 2 hotels to use the facilities, I finally stayed put in Darien GA. Got home at about the same time as TS Gaston, who promptly decided to dump 14 inches of rain on our area inside of 6 hours. Then stayed up all night with my neighbors on drain watch trying to kep the water out of our houses.

If anyone thinks that flat land cant flood think again. It can.

@ stinky

Hey bro, Im with you. The DNC just hasnt presented a better option to anyone. I would have a RWALLY hard time voting for W oversay.Zell Miller (from GA). He wrote a great book by way you really need to pick it up.

@ Mak

Thanks for participating. Hopefully youre still behind the computer to read this and the Secret Service hasnt seized it as evidence.

@ TMO

There is another book out that actually contends that not only were Al Queda and Saddams regime connected, but they were also connected to OKLAHOMA CITY. I havent been able to find it yet its called The Third Terrorist and I cant remember the authors name. I keep forgetting to Google it.

@ stinky

Re The American Conservative

Unfortuantely, I think the mainstream media has mis-labeled all of us. Truth be told, all in all, we are probably 80% in agreement on most issues.

Believe it or not, all liberals arent tax and spend and all conservatives dont condone bombing abortion clinics.

Thats it for the momenet more in a while. Gotta go watch Ahnold

Ooooh chief...now your gonna get it!

This is the cynical genius of the right: make enough noise and clamour, obfuscate, insinuate, and utterly destroy the truth: this is a bastardized version of deconstruction. This is not he said, he said though Im sure the right would love to call the whole thing a wash. The fact remains your guy was hiding out doing coke and getting drunk while kerry was fighting in Vietnam.

Has that fact sunk in? Tthe Vietnam argument is not pointless to pursue, despite the rights attempt to mitigate it through cynical deconstructive attempts to MAKE ALL TRUTHS RELATIVE. Let me give you a quick intro to deconstruction: start with the premise that all truths are humanly created and work out from there.examine the interest, motivations, prejudices, history, and actions of those that created the "truth"; use logic, reason, the dialectic method, materialist philosophy, and you can then begin to reconstruct a historicized, somewhat objective version of the likely events.

The right cant seem to get this rightthey have stopped where true deconstructionists begin. But then again, it suits their purpose.

In regards to the Dems being my party: they ain't...just vote that way by default.

In regards to changing my mind: you don't offer anything I haven't already heard from Faux News...its all undigested nonsense....and a sign of faith on your part. Let me reiterate that: your voting for this man is an act of faith. Not based on any of those 160 IQ points rattling around in your brain!

Tell me something I don't already know, chief....and make sure you think it through next time. Remember: I don't have a party, and there for, no self-interested political ideological stance...all I have to fall back on is 100 well-oiled, well used IQ points.

Last edited: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 at 10:29:40 PM

Er...and alot of time on my hands

LOL! We all seem to be spending an inordinate amount of time in this thread. XD

@Chief - I'd heard rumors trying to tie OKC with Al Qaeda soon after 9/11, but never heard anything that could make a decent connection between the two without using Elvis and his flying saucers. Doesn't mean it's not true, but I'm a bit skeptical.

@Tally - I've got some comments on "the arab street", but they're long and pretty much just personal opinion, and not very useful for general debate, so I'm going to hold off entering them for now and go do something a little more productive.

Ps chief, that comment you made to zeo about ralph nader would make sense if it was preceded by a loud belch and followed by your falling off a barstool.

Wow, you do a lot of stomping in anger, Stink. You are truly the Fred Astaire of the Antis.

Wheres the Brave New World?

Take Item #24 on your list, for example.

President Stinkfingers is in the Bully Pulpit. He defeated Bush with 96% of the popular vote, after rising up out of Japan like Godzilla. (Can't bash him now, he's back in Texas, plowing crops.)

What is the vision on foreign policy for the next four years?

If Kerry cant do a campaign promise, maybe you can fill in. And, I repeat, if Kerry doesn't learn quickly to promote a vision, he's another Dukakas.

Lot of loving to hate for fo mo fo you!

We could get you a signed photo. ;)

@ Chief

Let's hope the Frances one goes away. (I am just above you.) Hate the water thing. Fran and Floyd, yike!

Last edited: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 at 1:04:22 AM

@JJ - the thing is that most of them are not for anybody. They're just against Bush.

TMO: I'm sure you do bud, the closest I've come is either CNN or the streets of Jerusalem { besides the whole generalization factor. Where would the american street be? }.
Close enough, honeslty. My first dose of Palestinian fallafel left me in the can for the next 5 days.
pretty colors.
{ same bat channel, different bat time }
In other news, thank you stink for beating me to chief's post, saved me all that typing :). The only thing I'll add is a comment about this line:

I love this sort of "we dunno, it just happened" theory. I loathe to summon poop culture, but reminds me of that line in Cold Mountain where Renee {Ane no main bedder den me} Zellwegger goes on her rant about man making the weather, then complaining that it's raining.
yeaaaaah, I'm due for a feeding.

Ps. Spin? Did someone say spin?