Forums Index >> General >> a warm and fuzzy for my fellow christians..
And here is where Stink proves my point that it is best to remember that the Bible, though an excellent book of God, was put on paper by people. Too often, people have created civilian laws for whatever reason, and then enforced them by claiming they were commanded by God. The Old Testament has a lot of this. You can tell if you read the whole chapter (whole book preferably) if the stated ruling is one to support God, or to support the current society.
It is perfectly okay to use some judgement in what the bible states. God would not give us brains if he didn't want us to use them. Don't worry, I've yet to see a brainless post here. Stinky makes a good point that some parts of the bible seems a bit off, and Vanbuskirk makes an incredible rebuttal.
As for the caption: Aaaah! The idiots set the world on fire again with thier bombs! Ah well, <dump> back to the drawing board. :P
Bomb...James Bomb
Okay stinky, your getting way out of line. If you are going to quote and use passages from the bible, you should at least understand them, or not use them at all. You are trying to use Old testement (Jewish) law to define christianity. Which is wrong. You obviously dont want to read the chapters I suggested because you know they will prove how silly your ideas are. In all the old testement bible is one of the leading sources of historical information of anceint history.
One of the main reason they killed so many of the Midinites is that they had broken thier promises, sinned, and "did evil in the eyes of the Lord" against the herbrews. So God delivered them to his people. But also according to the law, from this battle they were able to get great amounts of wealth and virigins to further increase thier numbers. Yes killing babies and all that is nasty, but it is a part of war in those times. There was no geneva convention, nor UN. There were far more uglier thigns happening during that time by non-hebrews. People were sacrificing there newborns, raping thier own kids, all in the name of worshipping false Gods. Frankly I am glad the Hebrews killed all the midinites. The hebrews were justified in killing them, thier soilders, thier king, thier hiers, and thier wives for the horrbile things they did to thier OWN people.
Thankfully, all that horror isn't a part of my life. And I can be assured by the innocent death of Jesus on the cross, that I have a place in heaven for me when I finally take my eternal slumber. Amen
Hang on, last week we were being asked to swallow the story of the Creation from the OT - get your story straight lads!
And history being written by the winners, the story of the Midianites might have read rather differently from their point of view. Not one of God's most glorious days was it.
My question is, "Does this mean Stinky opposes abortion?" ;)
From GnomieHang on, last week we were being asked to swallow the story of the Creation from the OT - get your story straight lads!
My story is straight. I did not personally tell you that YOU should belived in the creation of the world as was told in geneisis. But if YOU want ot know what I believe then you are free to read it and ask me questions on it.
Who wrote Numbers Gnomie? Was it Hebrews? Or God? If it was hebrews you ahve a point, but if it was God your point makes no sense.
What about Sodom and Gomorrah? Jericho? Ai? The Gibeonites? Makkedah? Libnah? Lachish? Eglon? And hebron? These were all cities in the Land God had promised to Abraham and his decendants back in Gen 15:18-21
18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [4] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."
But for stinky to point out a VERY small segement of passage and then tell everyone that is how all chistians act, you are wrong. I have explained why stinkys ideas are incorrect, and even pointed him to relevant passages to help correct his misiterpitation.
If you want to learn about Creation, read the first 3 chapters of genesis. If you want ot learn about Noah and the Ark, start reading Genesis 6. If you want to learn how God lead the hebrews out of cruel slavery, read exodus. If you want to learn about Gods love for us, read Romans 8. But dont quote out of context fragments and tell me that is how all christians or even jews act
"Hand me the Holy Fountain Pen!" saith the Lord. Sorry, I had no idea God wrote the OT himself ! This changes everything!
Van: always excellent points -- nicely done
Rabban: thanks for not taking me seriously...i knew you were gonna bring up abortion OUCH!
Also...i am not trying to make blanket statements here about christians. Some of the coolest people I know are christians. This is really meant to be a respose against those namby pamby people I encounter daily who have those cutesy posters with a cat in a garbage can with the caption "I hate mondays" or some insipid crap like that. Part of their offensive behavior includes wearing theme sweaters with the inspirational bible passages on them...so I thought it would be funny to highlight the darker side of the bible...of course I turned to the nasty old testament....which in my opinion, as I've stated before, doesn't mesh with the teachings of jesus.
Anyway, I figure I can quote the bible, since they feel that they have a right too...and you guys have quoted it here and there to make your points....
And I quoted it out of context: guilty...
But van, seeing you rationalize the historic murder of children reminds me of the zealotry I read about coming out of the middle east...i don't mean to put you on the spot, but...i can't think of a good reason to kill women and children and to feel righteous about it...lets move away from religions ideology for a minute...that's not OK...right?
Stinky
The gig is definitely up....i keep forgetting to log out as o pappy....den back in as stinky....
Stinky
I can't think of a good reason to kill women and children and to feel righteous about it
Agree.
Van said to Stinky...
But dont quote out of context fragments and tell me that is how all christians or even jews act
Thats right stinky!! How dare you read a few sentences from the Bible and tell us how ALL Christians and Jews act. We all know you need to read at least few paragraphs to know how all Christians and Jews act!
I have to say that the arguments against Stinky's out-of-context-Tom-Foolery in this thread are just as selective as what they condemn stinky of.
Van said....
Frankly I am glad the Hebrews killed all the midinites. The hebrews were justified in killing them, thier soilders, thier king, thier hiers, and thier wives....
And their babies too right? Whew VAN, I just moved you down the list of possible Gods that I will worship. You were a notch above Bob's Big Boy and just behind Neo. You and Rabban were neck and neck. If Neo messes up in the final Matrix movie, you were going to be my next god.... Well I'm here to tell ya brother, after that "Glad they killed...." statement, you fell far down the list. Now you are one below Charles Manson (he was glad to kill a lot less people than you were glad got killed) and just a few above Stalin. I thought God was a forgiving, loving entity and he tells us to "forgive those who tresspass against us." Sounds to me like you need to get an extra helping of churchin' this week. Even Ghandi forgave the dude that shot him... Right to the guys face...while blood is still pumping out. I bet Van woulda called his guards to kill the mutha effer right then and there.
Last edited: Monday, April 19, 2004 at 10:00:10 PM
Wowser! I'm glad we're on the same team TG...(I mean team carpet munchers or team atheist) but I gotta take exception...i dont practice "tom-foolery" as you suggested...my predilection is clearly toward"bufoonery" geez....
Stinky
Last edited: Monday, April 19, 2004 at 10:21:35 PM
So again TankGirl comes down in the side of Pro-Life!
@Van - You're getting sucked in dude. WWJD? XD Oops! Now pappy will be after me!
Your are forgeting the why
"They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people.
14.700 HEBREWS died in that plauge. The hebrews were punished, but the punishment is far far worse if you turn someone away form the lord as the midinites learned.
Sin is ugly, but again, thankfully unlike 5000 years ago most of us dont have ot worry about things like this happening, and if we do sin, all we need ot know is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, so that we can have enternal life in heaven. Yes, even the babies today can know Gods love for them, and the parents can be assured that the LORD will take care of them in heaven
Rabban!!! I would never go after you for saying WWJD? I think jesus was groovy...if people use his example as a benchmark for their behavior...more power to them...
Stinky
[quote] You are trying to use Old testement (Jewish) law to define christianity. Which is wrong[quote]
Ouch...hope hammer doesnt see this....
Whats the big deal?? Anytime a bunch of holy people want to get together and kill each other im a happy guy!!!
I think stink is just trying to expose the great ironies of the bible...on one hand half of it has inspiring quotes and morals that have been followed for thousands of years....the other half of it is full of evil and the rationalizations made up so that they wouldnt feel guilty...as said b4....SELF SERVING MAN MADE BULLSHIT STORY...(sry tally for yelling)
Hasta
B
Well I hate to be the one to tell you Van, but the baby-spiking was going on 5000 years ago and it's going on now. Still, so long as all the little babies end up in Heaven eh?
There must be a better planet somewhere...
Last edited: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 at 12:07:00 AM
Here's another caption:
"the Big Bang theory gives way to the Big Hairy Hippy theory"
Here's another:
"god applauds as ezekial of jerusalem captures the trophy in the 3rd annual "Heathon Baby Bash-a-thon. This year ezekial set a personal best of bashing in the heads of 46 baby middites in just under 23 minutes. Way to go zeke"
Stinky
OK, I'll throw my caption into the hat.
Jesus opens his first Christmas present.
"Wow! A planet of my very own?! Just what I always wanted! You're the best Dad!"
Another caption:
"Hey 44! I can see your house from here."
Last edited: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 at 7:46:37 AM
"god applauds as ezekial of jerusalem captures the trophy in the 3rd annual "Heathon Baby Bash-a-thon. This year ezekial set a personal best of bashing in the heads of 46 baby middites in just under 23 minutes. Way to go zeke"
ROFLOL Stinky.
(TG, I'm not trying to single you out, I'm just using your statement as representative of many.)
Van, look at this...
I thought God was a forgiving, loving entity and he tells us to "forgive those who tresspass against us." Sounds to me like you need to get an extra helping of churchin' this week. Even Ghandi forgave the dude that shot him... Right to the guys face...while blood is still pumping out. I bet Van woulda called his guards to kill the mutha effer right then and there.
I'm sure you're seeing the problems here. TG wants to remind you that God is loving and forgiving (which he is), but she rejects that love and forgiveness when it comes to applying it to herself through repentance. Jesus went through hours of torture and suffering to open the way to receiving forgiveness from God, but they reject it.
They're not aware that we're living in a grace period. In the OT, God judged people a lot quicker (relatively) than he does today. What they don't realize is that God is storing up wrath for a time of judgement. The same Jesus whom they want to judge you by will be the one who judges them using the same standard. You know Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven and continually called people to repentance. The difference is that you've asked Jesus to forgive you and they haven't.
In Revelation 2:19-29 (ESV) Jesus is speaking to a church in Thyatira.
I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve. But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Only hold fast what you have until I come. The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
If that's how he addresses a church that's allowing sin, how do they think he's going to address those outside his grace?
Revelation 19:11-16 (ESV) describes Jesus.
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
Will they note the description where it reads, "He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty."? Jesus is going to be the instrument to execute God's judgement on earth. So while it's true that Jesus offers grace and love and forgiveness, it must be applied to a person's life through repentance and faith. If not, then those who reject God (whether they be in the OT or NT) while be subject to his wrath and judgement.
TG wants to remind you that God is loving and forgiving (which he is), but she rejects that love and forgiveness when it comes to applying it to herself through repentance.
Actually Rabby, I was being facetious when I joked with Van ("I thought God was a forgiving, loving entity and he tells us to "forgive those who tresspass against us."). I was making fun of him for saying he was glad the Hebrews killed a whole city of people (including innocent boys, women, and babies that were slaughtered just because of they were Midinites, not because they had done anything wrong)
:P
Last edited: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 at 11:58:24 AM
Well, I must've missed the smiley faces in that post.
Here's a favorite Bible verse from the KJV. Judges 3:21-22
And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly: And the haft also went in after the blade; and the fat closed upon the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly; and the dirt came out.
What do you suppose that dirt was? ;)
Here's a bumper sticker. "The dirt's coming!"
Last edited: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 at 12:58:58 PM
TG you obviosuly do not read my post when you make this comment
Including innocent boys, women, and babies that were slaughtered just because of they were Midinites, not because they had done anything wrong)
Numbers 25, numbers 31:16 explain what they did wrong, which I have quoted, and posted, I think I refereanced them at least 3 times allready. Please read my previosu posts before you make false commentsx like that
Yeah those Midianite babies, evil little buggers, doing wrong all over the place as only naughty little babies can, they really had it coming didn't they.
The ravings of maniacs. And then there's the Bible itself of course...
Terribly bad form don't you know, but I'm going to post twice - beat that for sinning, you evil little Midianite babies!
Anyway, I think what you Christian types are saying is: "God is Love. Jesus is Love. Unless of course you have a conflicting viewpoint, in which case it'll be the Fire of this and the Wrath of that, and verily ye'll wish ye'd never been born".
Which sounds like a classic propaganda technique to me - we'll try to persuade you with our arguments, but if you fail to see things our way, we'll send Big Jes round with a baseball bat.
You're not making too many converts here guys, I would shut up until TG launches her next offensive.
Wow, those quotations are just heaping piles of yuck....vengence? Resentment?...sounds like their authors are tired of being treated like dogs...justifying the murder of babies...(yeah, van, you've explained why those babies had it coming...jesus buddy, that is frightening...you use the words of murderers to justify murder...a scurious tactic).
Don't you guys see a glaring contradiction here? Snap out of it! Is there anyone home? Wake up! Your nasty book was written by vengeful, maligned, mistreated and angy people....who eventually won the day....its evidence of the maxim that the victors get to write history.
If you guys were born in, say...saudi arabia, you'd be spouting some other nonsense with equal vehemence....you know you would....wake up! I think you'd be the types to strap on bombs, convinced of your righteousness, and destroy human life for an idea....
I'll give you another idea: the world is perfect...it doesn't need slandered, it doesnt need "cured" it doesn't need "saved".....
Look what happend to this gnome! Watch yer step mofos! Matthew:13.42
Some things just aren't funny...i started this thread primarily to counter the relentless saturation of "uplifting" spiritual tidbits people parade around each day where I work, where I shop, where I recreate. People will beleive what they want. I'm just sick of having to see it all, especially given what I see are inconsistencies in the christian messages.
This thread has lost its humor...its devolved into a sad apology for the historic murder of children...i dont want it to sound like im taking some kind of high road...im sure every culture has had its hands steeped in the blood of kids....but christ...i'm damned if I'm gonna sit by and listen to justifications of it...
Im done with this non-sense...sorry I made sport...
Z can you lock this up? Or make it disappear? And never allow me to make fun of religion again?
Stinky...the crest-fallen
I guess you're right in a way. God is love, but you've got to do things His way. I suppose that's one of the benefits of being God, you get to make the rules.
I guess it could be interesting to discuss what real love is, but I'd say that one would get ugly as well.
And no, I'm not any more likely to to strap on a bomb for my ideas than anyone else in this forum. Making such an accusation is, well, just...(I don't know what to say).
Honestly, I'd prefer not to discuss religious topics here. I wanna have fun and enjoy the game. I don't think TT is the place people come to discuss religion (or is it?) since there are so many better resources on the subject.
If folks will stop raising the religion issue, I'll be more than happy to let it alone.
Last edited: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 at 1:24:02 AM
If your side was losing, would you strap it on? Would you kill for god????
Im sick of this too rabaan, I agreeeeeee
Stinky
Correct me if Iīm wrong but didnīt God give Moses the ten commandments, and wasnīt one of them "Thou shalt not kill"? So how can anyone condone all that killing and say that it is Godīs will?
Can't we all just agree to love lesbians?
I'll tackle the love question. The highest and most important love is the love an individual can have for their life. This would nessesarily exclude harming others. And yes 44, it's a fine thing indeed to love lesbians. :P
We are supposed to abide by these set down laws of God but why doesnīt he lead by example? What happened to practice what you preach? Why is he allowed to kill and we are punnished for it, unless of course we have some politition that sayīs we are doing it in Godīs name or for the sake of freedom. Why is it okay to kill in Godīs name? In my oppinion and personal beliefs, Iīll stick with the "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" type of practice or belief. Being Iīm part Blackfoot Indian and you Christians didnīt like the way we worshipped our gods, or shall we say spirits, we were forced from our land and killed in Godīs name. I believe in Mother nature, at least if everyone would have believed like the Indians we wouldnīt have all this pollution today. How many wars in history did the Christians start? Did anyone ever try to count them? It might be very interesting to know exactly how many people have had to die in the name of Christianity or God.
@Jinx, you're part Blackfoot? Wow, cool man. I've always had a lot of respect for Native Americans. And I hate what we've (white man) done to them over the centuries in the name of "progress" You'll hear that more often than in the name of God, but regardless, it's no excuse for hunting down and killing entire nations of people. Truly sad what has happened there, and continues to a degree to happen today (the discrimination at least)
OM
Sigh...i hear your guys....
I hear you too 44...
I hear you too rabaan...
I guess sometimes, all you can do is smile.....
Stinky de inebriated..................
Once again, like clockwork, those who argue about the inconsistencies of religion, the hypocrisies of the bible, win easily over the blind followers. I am NOT saying that all of you are "blind" followers, BUT those that insist the bible is to be taken literally AND those who have bizarro hypocritical justifications for the plethora of inconsistencies the bible brings to the table (justifying killing babies for example) are truly "blinded by faith."
Once again as well, I am in awe of the power of your faith to be able to pick and choose those things in the bible that suit you, and either disregard or "god's-will" your way out of those things that you can't define or go in agreement with.
So what is it? Do you follow the bible and your religion or not? Are you picking and choosing your passages of the bible that are ok with you or are you swallowing the whole pill?
If you are going to be in a public forum beating the bible over our heads as being a roadmap to god, you had better be prepared to give some good answers to the vast number of strange, unacceptable, inconsistent, severely outdated ideals the 2k year old book (written by regular men in an ancient culture) brings to the table.
Actually I do belive everything in the bible is true. And it has broguht me a great peace knowing how many parts of it further to stregthen the message that repentance, faith, and love will allow me to live a new life in heaven.
Oh and Jink, the commadment is better translated as "Thou shall not Murder" otherwise everytime someone went to war they would be sinning and half of the bible would be full of contradiction. This CORRECT translation has brought great peace to one of my elders that has served in the military, he also now teaches anceint history and it has been such a great benifit for him and his faith in Jesus
Van, for starters, blanket statement. I like you. You are a good guy and I appreciate who you are.
That said, this next statement of yours is a perfect example of what I had said earlier.... The faithful justify the hell out of everything to make the world fit their beliefs....
Oh and Jink, the commadment is better translated as "Thou shall not Murder" otherwise everytime someone went to war they would be sinning and half of the bible would be full of contradiction. This CORRECT translation has brought great peace to one of my elders that has served in the military, he also now teaches anceint history and it has been such a great benifit for him and his faith in Jesus
Going to war and killing your enemy in the name of riches, oil, or land, or religious beliefs is murder.... Plain and simple. If you are a soldier going to Baghdad, you are putting your country over your faith in god..... Isn't that a sin? Oh wait, the christian soldiers will pray to god to make their aim true. Religious followers on both sides of the battlelines are praying to their god to keep them safe and asking for help to massacre the other guys.
Did god say that you shouldn't kill unless it is for some good waterfront land? Maybe God said you shouldn't murder unless it helps to drive down the cost of oil per barrel? You don't think those christians in Badghdad are sinning? Sure they are, but they get a proxy to god by apologizing for their sins, wiggling some beads, doing a few hail marys.... How very convenient.
I guess you will be seeing Hitler in heaven then eh? He was only doing what he believed was right, and he believed it was god's will that he exterminated the Jews. He truly believed this was what God had assigned him to do.... Is Hitler going to heaven if he had a chance to apologize to a priest before he blew his own head off? No, wait, suicide put him right back to hell again... Even though he believed he was right to kill, because he chose to kill himself, he is going to hell...... Im confused.
Killing in the name of your country is a-ok, unless you kill yourself, then you are going to hell. Killing in the name of god is OK, unless you are a lone assasin because then you are just crazy, but killing in the name of god with an army behind you is ok.
..... I'm glad you followers have it all figured out because the more I look at the paradox that IS the bible and organized religion, the more I have to call BS on the whole thing.
Last edited: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 at 1:13:22 PM
Unfortunately TG the rest of us are living in the real world. That is insulting to me and my family members who have served in the military, including Iraq. Though I do not agree with their initial reason for going to war, WMDs. I do believe Saddam needed to be dealt with harshly. You also have to consider that we are warring against extremists who hate our way of life and put their faith in killing all that are free. Check the definition of Jihad. By the way, what size burqa do you wear? If you think this is over oil you need to do some research. Most of our oil comes from Canada. We buy from the Middle East because our country believes in a healthy world economy. Your quote "If you are a soldier going to Baghdad, you are putting your country over your faith in god....." Actually you are putting your country before yourself.
Semper Fi
Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to be on my toes.
Invite a retard to a picnic and you'd better expect to get drool in the potato salad.
If the answers are too distrubing, stop asking questions.
Just for the record, I believe the entire Bible. Not only that, I read it, study it and try to apply its principles to my life. Am I sinless or perfect? No. But I recognize that and ask God for forgiveness and mercy. I know I deserve judgment and punishment for disobeying God, but He's gracious, kind and patient towards me because I've submitted myself to His lordship.
I'm sorry the death of babies disturbs so many here, but it illustrates the consequences of sin. The parents disobeyed God and lead His chosen people to disobey them as well. God judged the parents and the children were swept away as well. So why isn't anyone angry with the parents? Why aren't they being condemned? I think it's because the guilty, those facing God's wrath, are identifying with the punished and they don't want to face that.
The real object of the story is to identify where we stand individually in our relationship with God. Are we among the obedient or the disobedient? The obedient receive mercy, grace and salvation. The disobedient receive judgment, wrath and death.
The 10 Commandments were mentioned. They should be used to judge ourselves rather than God. If were guilty of one sin, we should ask for forgiveness rather than accuse God for making us as we are or trying to become His judge.
God offers a very easy way of reconciliation, faith in Jesus Christ. A faith that accepts Jesus' death as the substitute for our own and repairs the relationship between the Creator and the created. When our lives are judged, theres no one to blame for the verdict but ourselves. Either we accept His salvation and enter into everlasting life or we reject His salvation and enter into everlasting death.
TG, I like you too, but I think your thinking is warped. Either that or you just like to argue. ;)
Amen to that Rabban.
Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to be on my toes.
Invite a retard to a picnic and you'd better expect to get drool in the potato salad.
Oh man, I don't know if I even want to try to respond to this sour thread. Addictions are hard to break, I guess.
The people who have the roughest job in the world are the military chaplins. They have to try and answer when a soldier asks them, "am I sinner to be fighting and killing in this war?" There are days when I'm really proud of what I do and the protection my men provide, but there are days when I wonder if I'll have to answer in the afterlife for the acts commanded of me. Last I checked, the enemy was not trying to enslave or commit genocide on the followers of God, so I don't really know if God really deems this war as necessary (or just for that matter). I mean seriously, the concept that "we will attack and kill your people until you start treating them better" is really a hard motive to swallow.
I joined the National "Guard" in order to "guard" this country under God. Originally, the Guard was called overseas to "guard" the nation from WMD. I believe a christian has a right to defend himself. Turns out there aren't any WMD. So...ummmmm...why are we sending even MORE soldiers over there? And why did we kill all those people? Oh, because we have to re-instate a new government and clean up the mess we made. Sure, God will understand. I apologize if there are people in the service here who truly believe that what we are doing is right in Iraq, but I'm having a really difficult time with it all.
Anyhow, as for the baby-killing thing, this was back when it was believed that the children inherit the sins of their parents ( I believe it was for 7 generations). So, the babies were killed with the parents. This is what started the concept of babtising a baby so that the sins can be forgiven before anything happened. I still find it a bit hard to swallow.
However, I am the one who always states that people muck up the word of God. EverythingEVERYTHING in the Old Testament was written BY PEOPLE who heard it from PROPHETS! Seriously, think about it. Why didn't God just send a voice from the sky and tell all the people at once: "Here are my requirements!" Instead, things were done by important-looking people who heard voices that could possible make errors or add to the messages they were given. I'm not questioning God here, just his messengers. I honestly think this is EXACTLY why he finally had to send his own son to Earth to speak to the people in mass. Remember how many times Jesus disagreed with the church? Didn't they have prophets of God telling them what to do? So, why was Jesus' message so different?
I think both the Old Testament and the New Testament are an excellent reference, but they should be read like one reads the newspaper. Sometimes things are skewed to match the views of the writer. I bet the prophets had the same problem. So, did God really want those babies killed? I honestly don't know. I wish somebody asked Jesus that.
- BombJames Bomb
@ James Bomb
Some good points but this sentence you wrote baffles me.
" I mean seriously, the concept that "we will attack and kill your people until you start treating them better" is really a hard motive to swallow."
Tell that to the folks that were damned by Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Hussein, Milosovich...
I can't believe I actually entered into a TT forum conversation. This one struck me since I just picked up my bro-in-law from a base when he returned from Iraq.
Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to be on my toes.
Invite a retard to a picnic and you'd better expect to get drool in the potato salad.
@James
If you remember, God was going to rule Israel, but the people wanted a king so they would be like the other nations. God initially intended on speaking directly to the people, but they feared the direct communication so they wanted God to speak through Moses. Eventually God started using prophets to deliver his messages to Israel.
During the time of Jesus, there hadn't been a prophetic message for about 400 yrs. The Scribes and Pharisees (sects of Judiasm) and the priests were implimenting the Law and their traditions. Jesus' issue was with their interpretation and additions to the Law which God had given them. So Jesus was against the rules and regs they had added to the Law (which often superseded the Law's intent) and was trying to get them to see what God had intended. If you think about it, Jesus didn't like religion either, but offered a relationship with God. However, Jesus supported the Law and the prophets teachings and said that not one little mark in the writing would be ignored until all was fulfilled. If you look, you'll see that the OT and NT (big picture) messages are the same.
As far a war goes. No one likes it, but sometimes it is necessary. I was deployed to Bosnia for about 5 months back in 1999. Nothing like Iraq by then, but we were still packing 9s when we traveled between bases and M16s around the countryside. Had I or my team been in danger or under attack, I would have done my best to defend myself and my people. There's a difference between murdering someone, killing someone during an act of self defense and killing someone during war. The Bible speaks to each of these in the Law, so when people charge God with being unreasonable it just shows their ignorance of the Scriptures.
Well said JB, you manage to balance your religious beliefs and your critical faculties without sounding insane!
I think most wars have been about grabbing or defending land and resources, whatever the religious or political spin, and I don't think Iraq is any exception. Interesting that the three main opposers of the war - France, Russia and China - already had treaties with Saddam to extract from the new Iraqi oilfields, whereas the US and UK hadn't. No offence to people in the services, but I think you're mainly fighting for the right to keep on driving SUVs.
Hold the phone!!!!
I never EVER meant my statements to be a slam against our soldiers. Not in the slightest, not evern a little. I hold the highest regard for those incredibly brave men and women that face the dangers of war. War is unfortunate, but it is part of our world and I greatly respect those that carry out their orders with their own safety in question. I am an extremely patriotic person, cry openly when the National Anthem is played (you don't want to be around me at the gold ceremony when we win an olympic event). Nothing that I said was targeted at our military and I am sorry that it is perceived that way. I understand in reading back how you could see it that way and I am VERY SORRY.
Try to read my post more as a curt reply to the thread that I quoted. The ONLY reason that I mentioned the military is in reply to van's comment that the bible actually says "Thou shall not Murder" otherwise all of our military would be sinners. I was picking at his point by saying killing is killing and it doesn't matter the reason, I can't imagine a god would think differently about the motive (land, religion, oil, riches, etc).
Remember, I don't believe that our soldiers are sinners.
@ Rogue, chill out a bit eh?
By the way, what size burqa do you wear? If you think this is over oil you need to do some research.
I mentioned going to war over waterfront property, riches, oil, land, or religious beliefs as examples of different types of wars and you grab onto the oil statement and rant at me.
@Rabban
I'm sorry the death of babies disturbs so many here, but it illustrates the consequences of sin....God judged the parents and the children were swept away as well. So why isn't anyone angry with the parents? Why aren't they being condemned? I think it's because the guilty, those facing God's wrath, are identifying with the punished and they don't want to face that.
Wow. This is a can-o-worms and another thread all together. First off, I can't even believe you would say that. This does not illustrate the consequences of sin, this illustrates they hypocrisies of religion. Babies have no sin, babies do not deserve to be punished for the sins of their parents. Should a baby born to a crack-whore be put in jail for the illegal activities of the mother? Is that baby a sinner because his mom is a sinner?
So if you suddenly realized you were gay and had to leave the church, you and your entire family should be punished for your "sin"? If this though held true for our legal system (let alone thousands of years of religious fanaticism) the entire world would be in jail. Should the families of the priests that molest children be punished? Maybe if they knew about the problem and chose to not act, but if they knew nothing of the molestation, should a priests family be punished?
@Rabban and others, this whole argument about it being OK to have killed the innocent babies because they were unfortunate enough to have been born to sinners is nothing short of REVOLTING. I brought Hitler into this thread because what you are speaking of is frightfully similar IN MINDSET to what the nazi's did to the jews.
This thread has been locked
You know, I love the way my fellow christians display uplifting christian messages on bumper stickers, on theme sweaters, and on coffee cups and so on...i've got a few favorites of my own I'd like to share...read on and be inspired
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads
Levitcus 20:13
Positively makes me gush.......sigh
Peace
Last edited: Sunday, April 18, 2004 at 10:02:57 AM