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Plus, I've never been much of a fan of fascism....i know some of you prefer to think of the current political methodology as "nationalism" or patriotism...but it seems protofascist to me:
Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
Disdain for the importance of human rights
Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
Rampant sexism
A controlled mass media
Obsession with national security
Religion and ruling elite tied together
Power of corporations protected
Power of labor suppressed or eliminated
Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts
Obsession with crime and punishment
Rampant cronyism and corruption
Fraudulent elections
By my count the bushies engage in 13 of 14...i don't count sexism. But anyway, there it is knuckleheads...here's your chance to vote in your kinder, gentler mussolini, or to return to democracy...
Om:
I'm down to my knuckle dude.
@stink - I've since added the "@Rogue" to my lengthy post. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to confuse anyone.
And I wanted to address the dualism here.
I need to read that carefully but: yeah, I dig jesus (the man)
Great! That's who I want you to look at. I'll easily give you that you're more moral than I just cause I know my own history (you'd be surprised, but then again, maybe not. ). But then, you're not going to be compared to me and I'm not the one you have to answer to. God is and compared to him we're all scum (as far as being good goes), that's why he's set up a system through Jesus Christ to make us acceptable to him.
Ok...i'm really not invested enough to read Rabban's piece on why christians (with their long, distinquished history of butchery, hypocracy, and moral superiority) are better than I am.
I just want to make one point here. Let me just change one word and see if you can see what I'm getting at.
i'm really not invested enough to read Rabban's piece on why negroes (with their long, distinquished history of butchery, hypocracy, and moral superiority) are better than I am.
Doesn't sound the same, does it? You're doing the very thing you despise in others, catagorically stereotyping a group of people based on the misdeeds of some. But anyway, since you're open to Jesus (the man), here's something he said that may help you.
Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 7:21 ESV
@ Tally Ho -
I think marriage between a man and a woman is an important thing and whether it came from God or evolution, I would think it came into being over the years because it benefited society. For us to deconstruct it so quickly is a mistake. I disagree that a homosexual couple can raise children just as effectively as heterosexual couples, but we won't see the results of our social experiment for years to come. As I mentioned before, civil unions or domestic partenerships eventually leads to couples just living together with no real commitment. I think people need that and marriage gives it to them in a unique way, regardless of what pop culture says. And on a personal note, I don't think God's going to indefinitely turn a blind eye to openly homosexual relationships. Sooner or later, he's going to judge the nation.
Last edited: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 at 11:36:24 AM
Electoral Vote Predictor 2004: Kerry 262 Bush 261 (3:20 EST)
Rabban,
It's truly 2 different languages we speak.
You wonder if marriage comes from god or evolution. To that I would say... Institution.
You wonder which raises children better. Forget the comparison: How many kids are broken products of broken "straight" homes.
You wonder if god will strike us down for allowing homosexual marriages. Of all the atrocities all the nations on earth have committed, gay marriage will be the one which will cause US to incur his wrath?
I find that egocentric.
Rabban: er....that is so absurd and fallacious...i don't even know where to start, or if I should even bother.
lets cut to the chase: you suppose that "negroes" and christians are analogous enough that substituting one for the other could serve to make a point. Sorry, but I don't see the analogy. Maybe you'd care to explain it to me?
Are you implying that "negroes" also have a long history of butchery, hypocracy, and moral superiority? I am not aware of any such suposition.
Are you implying that my argument is false because christians don't have such a history? Have you never cracked a history book? Take a class in western civ...and get back to me.
Are you implying that I over-generalized? Well, you got me there, I did. But here's the thing -- you make a hell of an over-generalization when you posit that christians are in a better place with regard to morality than an atheists like me is. I can give you long lists of christian butcherers, murderers, rapists, pedophiles, ethnic cleansers, and on and on and on.
Here is my final point: in the whole history of christianity, there have been very very few christians. following christ doesn't seem to be the point. When I think of jesus, and then I think of how his name is invoked in the name of wars, it makes me sick for all of you "christians" that just don't get it. Quote scripture at me all you want. That doesn't matter to me. I know what jesus said. I understand the spirit behind the words. I don't need complicated formulas to help me reconcile his teaching with the other malicious nonsense that makes up the old testament, and a great deal of the new.
So don't bother.
Chief's "from the gut (and it's a big one)" call:
Bush by 8
Over / Under is 97 - in other words, Nader will pick up 3.
Of course, this is the popular vote.
Electoral:
Bush 288 Kerry 235.
Will still go to court though, unfortunately........
I'm hoping zogby is right:
Bush
213
Kerry
311
with two states too close to call.
Maybe the brainiacs at stanford got it right:
Kerry 82.1% chance of getting (>=270) electoral votes 16.8% Bush chance of getting (>=270) electoral votes
Last edited: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 at 8:55:46 PM
I'm heading home - just thought I would share this from msnbc.com:
President | RESULTS | POLLS
Candidate Vote % Electoral vote
Bush (R) 57% 39
Kerry (D) 43% 3
Nader (I) 0% 0
2% of precincts reporting
Last edited: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 at 10:00:03 PM
We're all watching dude/
However this plays out, I'm so freaking disgusted with the 18-30 right now I could freaking scream. Unfreakingbelievable.
Does anyone else have a really sick feeling in the pit of their stomach? :S
It's almost official. America is truly the land of the dumbshits! Way to go numbskulls of America for voting this monster back in.
Maybe when he starts WW III, sends our economy into another great depression and generally screws all of us up the butt, the dipshits of this country will learn that he IS NOT A PRESIDENT!! He's a GD disaster on the loose. Probably not even then though, 'cause you need a brain to figure that out!
@tally -
It's truly 2 different languages we speak.
Very, very true
Just to clarify, I don't wonder where marriage comes from. I believe its a God ordained institution. I was just trying to be inclusive and present a "non religious" option. I don't wonder which relationship raises children better, I believe hetero is better. Children need each gender for their balanced development. Even in the broken homes you mention, the kids still benefit from the differing genders. And I don't wonder if God will judge America for homosexual marriages. I think it will come, but not as the only factor. Its just one of the more blatant things we can do as we as a nation continue to turn from his precepts.
@ stinkfingers-
I'm implying that you over-generalized. I'm implying that you have an anti-christian bias as you judge me and others based on the wrongs commited by those claiming to be Christians. You're sterotyping a group of people based on the bad behavior of some. This would seem to be something that would run counter to your internalized morality since you think its wrong to stereotype people (unless they're WASPs?). I think you're smart enough to find out good things people have done in the name of Christ, but you seem to prefer to sustain your bias and only look at the negative. As far as the "moral superiority" of atheists, give me a break! Let's look at Communist China and The Soviet Union and the things they're done to their people in the name of secularism as part of an atheistic state. Is there a Christian who's killed as many people as Stalin, the atheist? Besides, its easy for folks like you to pick at the shortcomings of believer's since you can go to our book and say, "Ah ha! You're not doing this or you shouldn't have done that", but you have no known code to live by other than what you feel like doing and you can justify anything you do and who's to argue with it or point out when you fail to abide by it? If you truly understood the Spirit behind Jesus words, you'd accept them and the man himself and understand the nature of repentance, justification and the spiritual struggle all true believers face.
THE SEGREGATION VOTE
It is very clear that Bush won the election because of the 11 state referendum that was aimed to ban gay marriage. I equate this, on a smaller scale, to the segregation votes aimed at African Americans.
If you voted for this referendum I wish testicular cancer upon you. If you can see that a human can be born with down syndrome, aggressive/manic behavior or a friggin twin attached to their head and not believe that a human can be born gay you truly are a jerk. Beware bigots, in the very near future you will see how truly disgusting you are, just as the racist bigots are viewed by today's modern society. I've not seen one of these jerks protest the men and women who get married for a few days, weeks or even a few months and then get divorced. That makes me sick and is an obviously opressive view.
We did very well Dems. We nearly beat the religious right and racist rednecks. I was surprised that the vote was this close when considering said referendum was on the ticket in 11 states. The majority of urban areas voted for Kerry and the rural areas voted for Bush. This point will hurt the GOP in the next election as more jobs are lost and Billy Boby and Betty Jean are forced to move into urban areas to find work.
I'm also pissed that the word "liberal" is viewed by these morons as a negative precept. If you consider me immoral because I believe that all people deserve equal treatment so be it. Scumbags!
Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to be on my toes.
Invite a retard to a picnic and you'd better expect to get drool in the potato salad.
Last edited: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 at 1:30:33 PM
Here's an interesting quote on the exit polling in states voting on the gay marriage ban:
Surveys of voters leaving polling places showed wide margins of support for the measures among voters of all backgrounds: white and black, young and older, those with high incomes and low incomes. Conservatives and those who attend church regularly were particularly supportive; better-educated voters were less likely to be.
Better educated voters were less likely to be I guess Bush is going to have to make sure education in this country continues to go down the tubes, so he can get more states with dummies to support the ban, eh? Bigots.
And a dark cloud settled over the land....
Kerry tells President Bush he will concede White House race at 1 PM ET... - The Drudge Report
If the bitter hatred and arrogance oozing here is any indicator of the Democratic agenda, I'm all the more glad and relieved Bush won.
Rabban- It is not arrogance and it's only hatred because we feel strongly that he is ruining the country and in some respects, the world. I'm sad you and other Republicans can't see it too.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/53438/6175
I'll write more when I clean the vomit off my keyboard.
Well, Bush won.
Time for America to go back to sleep. :(
What's he do for an encore? Bomb iceland? Bankrupt the country? No, wait, he's already done that...the thing is, I'd say all of you who voted for bush have the next four years coming, but you don't even know the damage he has done to democracy itself in the first four, I doubt you'll even notice when this fascist regime smothers out the last remaining sign of democracy....so just keep waving your flags.
I'm out, done.
Sayonara
Last edited: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 at 6:44:33 PM
I didn't vote for Bush for lots of reasons. But it seems to me that maybe the result, much as it was not what I wanted, will be good for the country. We are in the middle of a war whose outcome is very much in doubt. We have a fiscal policy that may or may not prove successful. Issues that have seemed remote to many like abortion and the Patriot Act's definition of rights and privacy are likely to become more immediate over the next few years. Had we changed leadershop now, it would have been difficult to assign accountability, for good or bad, for these policies and decisions. I always feared, in fact, that Kerry would have had little chance of success in the face of a conservative chorus of "everything was going in the right direction in Iraq when we handed it over to you". Whatever the result, over thee next few years we all will be better able to asses the success or failure of many things that are unfinished now, and hold one team accountable.
It has to get worse before it gets better, basic jewish axiom.
Yid rather.
Last edited: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 at 10:32:45 PM
Thank god for tally....
I blew my top and planned to stop posting here...for all the good it does...but people like tally help me with perspective. Salute!
Stick around stink, now we need you more than ever.
Indeed. If we are so emotional, ask....ah shit, its psycho time. :)
ill finish this later.
No worries.
Except if you're cadc. Then worry :).
Yeah, don't go anywhere stink. You have friends here for sure.
Tally, good post. I was actually thinking the same thing. The only way this country will learn how bad he is is to let him continue to f&ck up the country.
But as I said in a previous post, they'll still probably come up with some excuse. Maybe they'll still blame Clinton or something similarly preposterous.
I swear, someone needs to call Steve Jobs. Bush has obviously stolen his patented Reality Distortion Field for his own nefarious purposes. It's the only explanation that makes sense. :)
As for cadc, don't even argue with him. He's an arrogant 17 yr old punk who thinks he knows how the whole world works. He'll get his rude awakening at some point. They all do.
Rabban: arrogance? Anything on the level of presuming that you and yours are morally superior to 2/3rds of the rest of world? Anything near that level?
And glad you voted for bush? As though you may have done otherwise? C'mon. You are implying that you gave that some thought. Thinking isn't a republican strong suit. Which is why you all resort to faith. Which is why you all vote against your own economic interests when a presidential candidate makes a big show of his religion...praying isn't going to get the jobs that are being sent over-seas back....at some point you people are going to have to confront the fact that the people you elect are selling you out. Selling us all out.
Did you ever stop to think about why it is that the gap between the rich and the poor has soared to an all time high? Is it because of values? Or is it because of lopsided economic schemes? It's time for some of you to wake up and look around you...
Interesting that one demographic of bush supporter that grew in 2004 was the number of non-college educated women....still not approaching the level of non-college educated men, but there's always hope for 2008...
@Stinkfingers
1. I missed the part where Rabban assumed moral superiority, can someone help me find that?
2. I don't see how telling someone they don't think, when they disagree with you is effective.
3. The "statistics" that democrats and republicans conjure up regarding the negative characteristics of their rivals constituency is tiresome.
Last edited: Thursday, November 04, 2004 at 3:53:58 PM
...why it is that the gap between the rich and the poor has soared to an all time high? Is it because of values? Or is it because of lopsided economic schemes?
A Republican co-worker of mine sent this email to me:
>OLD VERSION:
>The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house
>and laying up supplies for the winter.
>
>
>The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the
>summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has
>no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
>
>
>MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!
>
>MODERN VERSION:
>The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house
>and laying up supplies for the winter.
>The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the
>summer away.
>Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands
>to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others
>are cold and starving.
>
>CBS, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper
>next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with
>food.
>America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country
>of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?
>
>Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries
>when they sing, "It's Not Easy Being Green."
>Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the
>news stations film the group singing, "We shall overcome." Jesse then has
>the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.
>
>Tom Daschle &John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Peter Jennings that the
>ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an
>immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share."
>
>Finally, the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act,"
>retroactive to the beginning of the summer.
>
>The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs
>and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is
>confiscated by the government.
>
>Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation
>suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges
>that Bill appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients.
>
>The ant loses the case.
>
>The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the
>ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the
>ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it.
>
>The ant has disappeared in the snow.
>
>The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house,now
>abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once
>peaceful neighborhood.
>
>MORAL OF THE STORY: Vote Republican
"Statistics" may get inflated, misused or whatever, Dash, but I think the Republican satire in this "joke" is based on some badly-applied morals: Jesus rocks! when it comes to using the Bible to step on the necks of gays, but it's dog-eat-dog when it comes to using the collective pocket-book to help those in need. To finish this "modern moral" by taking stink's quote into account: Vote Republican and you can have your Creationism and eat your social Darwinism, too!
Last edited: Thursday, November 04, 2004 at 4:48:59 PM
I'm glad this thread was resurrected. We need it.
What we don't need are personal attacks. I did think about my vote and what it meant for the country. What stink and others can't seem to grasp is that my views are fomulated by my values and they're just as valid as anyone else's, especially if all those views and values are internalized.
I know the Dems are...disappointed, but then that's how the system works. The nation chose Bush. He won the Electoral College AND the popular vote. The majority of voters cited "moral values" as their primary issue. That's their right and prerogative. Like dash said, calling the opposition names isn't going to do anything for reuniting the county, much less this community.
Besides, look on the bright side. Hillary's going to take it in 2008. XD
Nov. 3, 2004 | "This country is going so far to the right you are not even going to recognize it," remarked John Mitchell, President Nixon's attorney general, in 1970. Mitchell's prophesy became the mission of Nixon's College Republican president, Karl Rove, who implemented the strategy of authoritarian populism behind George W. Bush's victory.
In the aftermath, Democrats will form their ritual circular firing squad of recriminations. But, finally, the loss was not due to their candidate's personality, the flaws of this or that advisor or the party's platform. The Democrats surprised themselves at their ability to raise tens of millions of dollars, inspire hundreds of thousands of activists, spawn extensive new organizations, attract icons of popular culture and present themselves as unified around a centrist position. Expectations were not dashed. Turnout vastly increased among African-Americans and Hispanics. More than 60 percent of the newly registered voters went for John Kerry. Those concerned about the economy voted overwhelmingly for him; so did those citing the war in Iraq as an issue. But the surge of the Democrats was more than matched.
Using the White House as a machine of centripetal force, Rove spread fear and fused its elements. Fear of the besieging terrorist, appearing in Bush campaign TV ads as the shifty eyes of a swarthy man or a pack of wolves, was joined with fear of the besieging queer. Bush's announcement that he favored a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage was underscored by referendums against it in 11 states, including Ohio -- all of which won.
The evangelical churches became instruments of political organization. Ideology was enforced as theology, turning nonconformity into sin, and the faithful, following voter guides with biblical literalism, were shepherded to the polls as though to the rapture. White Protestants, especially in the South, especially married men, gave their souls and votes for flag and cross.
The campaign was one long camp meeting, a revival. Abortion and stem cell research became a lever for prying loose white Catholics. (Rove's designated Catholic leader, his own political pontiff, had to resign in disgrace after being exposed for sexual harassment, but this was little reported and had no effect.) To help in Florida, a referendum was put on the ballot to deny young women the right to abortion without parental approval, and it galvanized evangelicals and conservative Catholics alike.
While Kerry ran on the mainstream American traditions of international cooperation and domestic investment, and transparency and rationality as essential to democratic government, Bush campaigned directly against these very ideas. At his rallies, Bush was introduced as standing for "the right God." During the closing weeks of the campaign, Bush and Cheney ridiculed internationalism, falsifying Kerry's statement about a "global test." They disdained Kerry's internationalism as effeminate, unpatriotic, a character flaw and elitist. "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig," Vice President Cheney derided in every speech. They grafted imperial unilateralism onto provincial isolationism. Fear of the rest of the world was to be mastered with contempt for it.
These emotions were linked to what is euphemistically called "moral values," which is actually social and sexual panic over the rights of women and gender roles -- lipstick traces, indeed. Only imposing manly authority against "girlie men," girls and lurking terrorists can save the nation. Bush's TV ads featured digitally reproduced crowds of cheering soldiers, triumph of the leader through computer enhancement. Above all, the exit polls showed that "strong leader" was the primary reason Bush was supported.
Brought along with Bush is a gallery of grotesques in the Senate -- more than one of the new senators advocating capital punishment for abortion, another urging that all gay teachers be fired, yet another revealed as suffering from obvious symptoms of Alzheimer's.
The new majority is more theocratic than Republican, as Republican was previously understood; the defeat of the old moderate Republican Party is far more decisive than the loss by the Democrats. And there are no checks and balances. The terminal illness of Chief Justice William Rehnquist signals new appointments to the Supreme Court that will alter law for more than a generation. Conservative promises to dismantle constitutional law established since the New Deal will be acted upon. Roe vs. Wade will be overturned and abortion outlawed.
Now, without constraints, Bush can pursue the dreams he campaigned for -- the use of U.S. Military might to bring God's gift of freedom to the world, with no more "global tests," and at home the enactment of the imperatives of "the right God." The international system of collective security forged in World War II and tempered in the Cold War is a thing of the past. The Democratic Party, despite its best efforts, has failed to rein in the radicalism sweeping the country. The world is in a state of emergency but also irrelevant. The New World, with all its power and might, stepping forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old? Goodbye to all that.
I wonder why this news was released now, 2 days after election day:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/04/iraq.weapons.ap/index.html
Here's a summary in case someone doesn't feel like clicking the link
Explosives were looted from the Al-Qaqaa ammunitions site in Iraq while outnumbered U.S. Soldiers assigned to guard the materials watched helplessly, soldiers told the Los Angeles Times.
About a dozen U.S. Troops were guarding the sprawling facility in the weeks after the April 2003 fall of Baghdad when Iraqi looters raided the site, the newspaper quoted a group of unidentified soldiers as saying.
U.S. Army reservists and National Guardsmen witnessed the looting and some soldiers sent messages to commanders in Baghdad requesting help, but received no reply, they said.
Interesting. But as Guiliani said, it's the troops' fault, right? Wouldn't have had anything to do with our Commander-in-Chief, right?
@George:
I'm missing how your post has anything to do with shady statistics fabricated by parties with a vested interest.
I don't see the link between jesus and the grasshopper and the ant.
Comparing Creationism and Social Darwinism and trying to cry hypocrisy seems silly to me.
A belief about the origin of life cannot be used to bind a person to a particular view on social dynamics. However life came to be, the probability that it was a human construct is infinitesimal. On the other hand human societies are human constructs. So while Vote Republican and you can have your Creationism and eat your social Darwinism, too!
sounds funny, it is no more meaningful than. Vote Republican and you can have your apples and oranges too!
Wow - I actually found an unlocked policatlly related thread...only problem is I forgot what I wanted to say........
@Dash,
Spent way too much time this AM explaining the thoughts behind my overuse of rhetoric, but the login timed out and I lost my post (arg). Back to you later once the workday is done.
I'll mount my open source voting software soapbox now. Voting software has to be open source. If we allow our voting software to be made by a private corporation and the source code to be kept from the general public therewill be huge problems. Only with 100% transparency can voting software be successful. That way everyone can audit the source codefor vulnerabilities and bugs, checksum the source and binary formats to prevent tampering and make sure nothing has been done to alter the system before during and after installation at the voting center.When we let corporations like diebold sell us these blackbox voting machines we are buying "Cars with the hood welded shut" and we have know way of knowing what goes on underneath.
From that interesting voter site tally posted...
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke
True, unless everyone has a copy of the magicians spellbook.
Last edited: Friday, November 05, 2004 at 1:36:24 PM
Has anyone watched the movie yet?
http://www.dispatch.com/election/election-president.php?story=dispatch/2004/11/05/20041105-A6-01.html
avalanches gotta start somewhere.
Last edited: Friday, November 05, 2004 at 6:12:23 PM
Last edited: Friday, November 05, 2004 at 8:24:46 PM
Yeah, I've seen this before. Either people polled in Ohio and Florida were lying about who they voted for, or there was shady stuff going on. Which one is more likely? Also very convenient that OH and FL voting machines were Diebold supplied. No paper trail to trace back either. Very convenient.
G W Bush: America's # 1 crook
Don't forget New Hampshire and PA just because Kerry took both.
Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to be on my toes.
Invite a retard to a picnic and you'd better expect to get drool in the potato salad.
And that one of the machines in Ohio added about 3 thousand votes to Bush, and that has raised question about the other machines now.
Www.democraticunderground.com
There are so many instances of "inaccuracy" it's ridiculous. Preposterous even.
Last edited: Saturday, November 06, 2004 at 12:16:47 AM
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This thread has been locked
Sept. 30 @ 9 pm ET
Oct. 5, VP debate
Oct. 8
Oct. 13
Ready to think?
Last edited: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 at 3:28:52 AM