Sept. 30 @ 9 pm ET
Oct. 5, VP debate
Oct. 8
Oct. 13

Ready to think?

Last edited: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 at 3:28:52 AM

Hey where's the sacrificial wine?

Napalm

"@Tally Ho - I just think homosexual marriages are going to have some serious impacts on our culture that we're not expecting."
Par example?

{ when I read, I start at the bottom :)... }
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/008497.html#008497

JJ: Ignore the spin, dude, and listen to the news BEFORE the yammering domes come on and try and spin the news. America's Mayor, btw, came out and blamed the troops, right after everyone else blamed everyone else. What we KNOW is that with each new news cycle, the deluge of bad against this administration continues to grow. As for these weapons, as this spin: http://kstp.com/article/stories/S3741.html?cat=64
We know that these guys had been planning this since 1999, yet nearly everything went unplanned. It should piss everyone the hell off; I don't get it.

What I also I don't understand is how the debates could have left anyone undecided. You had chocolate and vanilla worlds on display.

"""How can anyone vote for a pair like Kerry and Edwards when they pull unthinking stunts like this. Worse than Bush..."""
Care to explain this? I can't find the support for this conclusion, especially considering, um, that it's true, that just as a screwed up the "peace," they screwed this up as well.

Beware a priori.

Last edited: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 4:00:10 PM

Our democracy at risk?
David Shuster)

Oh, and then there's that voter suppression thing...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/29/121813/53
http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/000587.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/28/201853/53
http://www.newdonkey.com/2004/10/rove-mo.html
http://www.newdonkey.com/2004/10/gops-november-surprise.html

Serenity now,

Last edited: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 4:10:31 PM

Rabban, for me it comes down to how your beliefs affect others. In this case, your belief limits others' access to life-saving treatments. Mine do not: you nor anyone else have to have stem cell-based treatments.

Actually George, we're talking about stem cell research, not life-saving treatments. MAYBE the research will produce the treatments you're hoping for, maybe they won't. But I think there are other avenues of research that are available as well and that's fine with me. Just for the record, I'm not against people going to doctors either.

Y'know, I watched the pentagon briefing today on CNN about the lost weapons and I figured you'd really have to be a moron to not know these guys were lying. "We've had several days now to examine what actually transpired...but we can't give you a definitive answer right now...we'll let you know once we know...blah blah blah." Yeah, right. I'm sure you'll let us know once the election is over.

And, then, in a phone conversation with my brother just now, he informs me that Frontline reported that Bush never had a passport until he was elected president. He'd never left the country. Say what!? Furthermore, the Bush propaganda machine has been caught duplicating soldiers heads for photo-ops that make it seem like a shitload of people are all on board his righteous path. Well, I guess if you lie enough, the lie becomes the truth. Bush has pulled the biggest stock swindle in American history by duping the American taxpayers. I smell Nazism. Which leads me to......

@Rabban

I'm just curious if you've ever left your country. If you have, did you ever get a chance to talk the locals or were you just shuttled from the airport to your hotel room and back again? A decade ago, I lived in Asia for about four years, and trust me, the US had a REALLY bad image over there. Throw Bush into the mix now and do you think it's any better? The myopic, self-righteous, and money-grubbing arrogance of this current administration will most certainly bring doom to your nation. Certainly not now, but my guess is in fifty years. Do you really want your children or grand-children to have to bear that kind of catastrophe? As your friendly neighbour to the north, I most certainly don't.

Aye, that photoshop duplicating operation was paaaaaaatheeeeeeeetic. That crizap didn't fly in the 1940s...to try it now?
omg new epson printer drivers, bbl.

Ps, do you need a passport to leave texas? Nay!

I guess for Bush leaving the country meant going to Houston.

Jangles, I've been to the England and Bosnia, not the best places to make your point. ;)

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2002/080502a.html
How do you defend this crap? Just a little reminder to keep your eyes wide open this time around.

Good link, George. In fact, there have been many great links recently - most notably the one involving a couple of ferrets.

Hey, I think that's great, Rabban. I was hoping you hadn't travelled for the sake of argument, but I could never fault anybody for seeing the world. And, what do you believe their impression of America was? Was it favourable? I know I certainly didn't enjoy getting jumped and forced to fight innumerable times overseas because my appearance and accent suggested I was Yank. Do you think George W. Makes America a more likable place now? Or does someone like me have to put a Canadian patch on his parka every time he wants to leave the country?

Cripes! Unbelievable the lengths they'll go to. I'm fortunate to be in a state which is, overall, hostile towards Bush, so I doubt I'll run across anything such as that. If anything, it would be reversed.

Oh why not. Here's another link I found interesting today:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/index.html

I'm so glad we made things safer for Iraqis. Aren't you?

Let's hope whoever wins next week will correct this situation ASAP. You know who my bets with.

Wow! You fellas been busy...i need to read for a while to catch up...but first:

JJ: thanks for the tip o the hat....ps. I'm not a dem, and didnt vote dem in the last two presidential elections....
Rabban: I need to read that carefully but: yeah, I dig jesus (the man) and NONE of those quotes which you seem to attribute to me in that response came from me...whattsup with that?

Ok...i'm really not invested enough to read Rabban's piece on why christians (with their long, distinquished history of butchery, hypocracy, and moral superiority) are better than I am. I accept the thesis that people who believe in spooks and prefer mystery to rational explanations are in a far better position to do the right thing when confronted with a moral quandry. History....bears this out? Er, guess not. But anyway, you are welcome to your self affirming myths.

Jangy...i believe your point is blunted by the fact that heartland bush supporters don't give a shit about the rest of the world. In case you didn't get it from listening to bush, this is the promised land. Jesus is a republican, and his pops is a texas oil man. And these are end times...who cares what all those old europeans think of us? In a matter of moments, jesus is gonna frag all their asses and then take all his followers to the big costco in the sky.

OM:

"Yes, it's true, believe it or not. But how ANYONE can't see the duplicity, lies, corruption and mismanagement of this Bush administration is beyond me. "

Well said...

Is it because bush supporters don't care about any of this? Or do they conveniently lose sight of it in the tangles of spin?

"I accept the thesis that people who believe in spooks and prefer mystery to rational explanations are in a far better position to do the right thing when confronted with a moral quandry. History....bears this out? Er, guess not."

Zing! Good one Stinky!

'jesus is gonna frag all their asses and then take all his followers to the big costco in the sky.'

LOL. Well, that would fit right in with Bush's comic book view of the world.

Shnicker, shnicker....

LOL!

What is this? All getting in the last word at the eleventh hour!

I must say that for me it is truly fun to see the divergent views bouncing off each other.

@ OM

If Bush wins, I am going to journey to NYC especially for you and dance in the street in front of your dwelling and sing "Four More Years!" and throw comic books at your front door. Then run like...

@ the weapons thing, Tally...

I watched the Pentagon's news briefing. Among the notable numbers: 10,000 found weapons caches, 400,000 tons of explosives destroyed. Quite a few. The television crew that filmed the site hasnt cleared up much yet, I think. More importantly, the source for this story was a UN official who has an axe to grind. Of course, he denied any axe or any grinding.

Above all, as I said, Kerry jumped too quickly on an inconclusive story. It is starting to look even more inconclusive, too. My advice to the DNC is, dont count your ostriches until they hatch.

Do I smell another CBS rerun???? Was Dan Rather behind this???

As Jangles might say, are smilies required on all tongue-in-cheek jabs? I was just taking a campaign-rhetoric type poke at Kerry. His charge against Bush was just more of the same ol campaign biznai. (BTW, Jangles, I read all your posts like there are smilies before, after, and in them.)

I am always appalled how many politicians fling the hyperbole. Some of the minor local races here have reached absurdity. I will fight for yew

Also, more specifically, by undecided, I mean that I, along with many others that I know, dont trust politicians. Listen to the sales pitch before making up your minds.

The "debates" did not offer any new, mind-changing information. The debates offered no new information to change a decided, I felt.

It made me want more investigation from the media, with less partisan probing

Saying that ^ always reminds me of Ed Bradleys face when Dan Rather announced that Florida had gone to George Bush that fateful night last election. Bradley looked like someone had punched him in the stomach. Then he said to Rather that the Miami area precincts hadnt reported in yet. He said it to Dan Rather like Look at it a little closer before you jump the gun, you monkey!

@ George

Interesting line on the EPA stuff. Part of what I dislike about the current admin is their stance on environmental issues. However, its not like the environmentalists ever fall off the other side of the horse.

I am sure my agreement with you warms your heart... Plz dont allude to rioting

@ Stink

I did not call you a Dem. I called you a deep stinker, ah, thinker.

@ Rabban

You have to expect Stink to tune up like that. Can't you see it in his posts? He's like a jet engine. He sputters and fumes and chokes and then revs up to a high whine and flies off. He likes to riff.

About the stem cell research though. I am not sure how to jump in on that one. Here or elsewhere.

As Tally characterizes, there is Chocolate and Vanilla. Especially here where there is no common ground. Common ground is going to have to be found first, before any mind-changing discussion happens.

The common ground is at the fight between the sanctity of life ethic and the quality of life ethic. The worst rhetoric in the country right now...

@ this political system

There is a line in politics that is absolute. That is the right to vote. Pure black and white. Right on one side, wrong on the other. Abusing anothers right to vote or misusing your own is absolutely wrong.

I lived in the mountains of Kentucky briefly. Up there, the motto, sad to say, of a good number of the voting people was: If they dont pay me to vote, I am not going to make the effort. I couldnt believe it.

We all have a right to vote independent of any influence and SECRETLY. I go in the booth, shut the curtain, and vote my little heart out. If I have to stand in line three hours, I will. (But, darn it, if I have to!)

I am thankful for the right to vote. I am also thankful for all the checks and balances of our political system. Including the electoral college!!!!

Last edited: Saturday, October 30, 2004 at 2:28:21 AM

"There is a line in politics that is absolute. That is the right to vote. Pure black and white. Right on one side, wrong on the other. Abusing anothers right to vote or misusing your own is absolutely wrong."

Amen

A quote from talking points memo:

Which of these two statements sounds like it comes from the stronger leader?

John Kerry: In response to this tape from Osama bin Laden, let me make it clear, crystal clear. As Americans, we are absolutely united in our determination to hunt down and destroy Osama bin Laden and the terrorists. They are barbarians. And I will stop at absolutely nothing to hunt down, capture or kill the terrorists wherever they are, whatever it takes. Period.

George W. Bush: Earlier today I was informed of the tape that is now being analyzed by America's intelligence community. Let me make this very clear: Americans will not be intimidated or influenced by an enemy of our country. I'm sure Senator Kerry agrees with this. I also want to say to the American people that we're at war with these terrorists and I am confident that we will prevail.

"I've never seen a person anywhere ever succeed so much by failing. Why does he get to consistently, repeatedly, retake the test?"

Only in the bleakest, most cynical recesses of my mind, do I look for the answer to this question...

Am I really sitting here agreeing with this guy? Are his arguements really more reasonable than those of my leader?

Sad.

We have spent billions upon billions, and overextended our entire military, to capture Saddam Hussein.

Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction and posed no immediate threat to our country.

Osama bin Laden is healthy, can freely broadcast his message to the entire world and poses a very real and immediate threat to our security.

Our enemy is comprised of radical, islamic extremists who hate the United States.

Our current administration's foreign policy increases the number of radical, islamic extremists who hate the United States -- we are strengthening the enemy.

Republican: "We invaded Iraq because we believed they possessed WMDs and needed to prevent those weapons from falling into the hands of terrorists. Our intelligence said there were WMDs, past administrations said there were WMDs, other countries agreed there were WMDs...we had to secure the WMDs."

Democrats: "But there were no WMDs."

Republicans: "Our intelligence was wrong. But we truly believed there were WMDs."

Democrats: "If you believed there were WMDs, why did you have too few troops in place to secure weapon storage facilities and no plan to prevent widespread looting of weapons?"

Republicans: "Uhhhhh."

Democrats: "Is it possible that WMDs were truly in Iraq and now they have been looted?"

Republicans: "Uhhhhh."

Democrats: "Why would we invade without a plan to adequately protect the items we were most afraid might fall into the wrong hands?"

Republicans: "Uhhhhh."

Democrats: "Why would...."(interrupted)

Republicans: "FLIP FLOPPER! Did you see Bush with that bullhorn?"

The spin cycle's on high fellas........

"Come one, come all! Get your re-cycled data right here! Everyone's a winner!!"

I wish this stuff came in another flavor - vanilla and chocolate get kinda boring sometimes..........

My prediction: Bush by 4 points. I still think it'll go to court for some arcane reason. I hope not...I ultimately would just like to see a decisive winner so this "uncivil war" will come to an end......

Quick question: who voted early?

In pay-attention-to-me fashion, my question again :
Perhaps we can discuss this now - briefly stated, my confusion:
Up to this moment, we all expected that if Bush were to get a positive october surprise, it would be bin laden in handcuffs.
Instead, we get bin laden on videotape again.
Yet, this is a Bush victory.
I don't understand.
I've never seen a person anywhere ever succeed so much by failing. Why does he get to consistently, repeatedly, retake the test?

Bush gets to repeatedly take the test again because the Republicans are masters of propaganda. I read the Bin Laden transcripts last night and, like 44, I had to sadly question myself as to why this goon was making more sense than Bush.

In any other country, this videotape would have been a slap in the face to the current administration. But nope. The Republicans once again spin it as some kind of moral victory and Bush is still on track.

Troops dying in Iraq and Bin Laden at large. Just where exactly are Bush's priorities and the sensibility of the people.

As the only Canadian involved in this and the other political threads, I think it should be pointed out that pretty much all the media over here wants Bush out. The US is our protector and friend, but the last thing we want is guilt through association. Perversely, there are a select few in Canada that want Bush to remain in power: namely our Conservatives in the Prairies (oil dudes, go figure!) and those that believe the intelligentsia of America will become so disenfranchised with their own country that they'll come here - thus eliminating the brain drain south and improving our own economy.

"and those that believe the intelligentsia of America will become so disenfranchised with their own country that they'll come here - thus eliminating the brain drain south and improving our own economy."
Those that can, may.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/247753p-212149c.html
Some quotes therein are amazing.

Last edited: Saturday, October 30, 2004 at 6:51:32 PM

@ Tally

Good question. Simply put, the fact that OBL is still running around the Afghan countryside kinda slams one of the longer standing conspiracist theories of "we have OBL and will announce it before the election."

Regarding the tape, which I personally think is a bad sign as they tend to preface terro activity, I think the "prrof in the pudding" that the GOP are pointing to is OBL's stated dissatisfaction with the outcome of the Afghan elections and his admitting that the Pakistani operations have limited his movements - link .

@ jangles

The US media want him out too!

PS - make some room - if Kerry wins I'm comin' up!

Last edited: Saturday, October 30, 2004 at 7:40:29 PM

They'll eat you alive, chief....

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=377
Comment allez-vous?

As one of the comments at the link states:

"sick sick sick sick"

Utterly disgraceful. Maybe desperate too? Is Bush's entire persona wrapped up in 9/11? Is there nothing more to the man? Mb that's why he never pushed to catch UBL. Once that happened he'd be a hollow shell.

Hey mister mysterio! I don't play too much these days...a bit bored by it all...waiting for TT2. You?

Well, since it is SUNDAY already, maybe we should all start to WIND DOWN this thread!

The GREATEST thing about the USA is: historically, we have ALWAYS been many cultures, many ideas, many backrounds and opinions...

But the USA has worked because of ONE idea: We all keep our differences LOCAL, and try to focus on the things we have in common as a NATION.

We at PTT need to keep that same focus!
This is NOT a political blog, it is the ONE TRUE ThinkTank Forum!

And no matter who wins or loses on tuesday, no matter who cheats or lies or uses 10 Thousand Lawyers to try to CHANGE the outcome....

We need to remember that WE are here to support THINK TANKS!

EVERYONE here has THAT in common!
And no matter WHO wins this election, they CANNOT take TT away from us!

So, since NO ONE is gonna change anyone elses mind about the election at this point, howzabout we all count to ten and then agree that we all support TT?
Just a thought.

"Hi!...I'm RunsWithScisssors, and I approved this message!"

LOL, RWS! Nice to see the moderators working overtime.

In the spirit of neopolitan ice-cream, I pose a fun competiton in which we can all participate...Let's see who can guess most closely the correct answer to the following question:

After Tuesday and through the end of the year, how many days will Bush spend 'working' on the Crawford ranch?

My guess? 5 weeks.

I don't think it really matters, 44. He is probably involved in 'work' at the whitehouse as much as he 'works' in crawford.

Tally: "The Bushies' campaign pitch follows their usual backward logic: Because we have failed to make you safe, you should re-elect us to make you safer. Because we haven't caught Osama in three years, you need us to catch Osama in the next four years. Because we didn't bother to secure explosives in Iraq, you can count on us to make sure those explosives aren't used against you." nytimes...

That's for the question you posted twice...does backward logic explain why this tactic works? No. I guess you have to conclude that bush supporters are impervious to facts. A whole community of people who put more stock in faith than they do in facts...disconcerting.

Early voter here. Felt good.

It felt even better to spend the weekend volunteering, too. Knocking on doors, reminding eligible voters to vote, passing out recommended candidate lists (it sure would help if D's, R's, etc. Were pasted next to judges' names, too), passing out replacement Kerry-Edwards yard signs.

I also was shaking my head at people trying to rake leaves into piles in wind which gusted all day Saturday up to 15-20 miles per hour, even though the vac truck doesn't come by until Monday morning to suck up the leaves from the street curb. Believe it or not but every one of the rakers in those neighborhoods had Bush and usually "Yes to Issue 1 - Protect Marriage" signs on their lawns. (Ohio Issue 1 is the one that makes it illegal for all unmarried couples to receive benefits usually given to married couples even if they are in a proven cohabiting relationship and whether they are gay OR NOT - even Republican Governor Taft is voting against it!) I think it showed a little something about many of those that are supporting Bush: 1) vote your ideology even if it hurts innocent bystanders (like elderly widow-widower couples that do not wish to get married again but live together for support AND REGULARLY ATTEND CHURCH - there are plenty of these couples in Ohio) and 2) bull-headedly continue on your present course despite the facts in front of your face.

Last edited: Sunday, October 31, 2004 at 9:26:21 PM

Way to go GeOrge.

There is still time, knuckle-heads...

Last edited: Sunday, October 31, 2004 at 9:51:44 PM

Good for you Ge0rge. It doesn't surprise me in the least the Bush supporters would be the bull-headed stubborn ones who continue to do something even if it's obviously not the place or time or way to do it. The word "logic" doesn't seem to exist in their vocab.

Where do you think they get it :).

My newest bumpersticker...

CHOOSE KERRY-EDWARDS 2004
There's Still Time, Knuckle-heads

@ RWS

I think we are all still support TT. This has been mild to what appears to go on in other places.

Hey, you ought to hear what the extreme pro-Republican folks say.

They use things like:

You, reasonable, logical...

;)

Last edited: Monday, November 01, 2004 at 11:37:38 AM

@ JJ

LOL

@ RWS

I agree. Irregardless of the outcome of the election, the world's gonna keep on turning after Nov. 2.

About my "Canada here I come" comment above - please understand that I was kidding when I said it. I consider myself American first, Republican second - I survived 8 years of Clinton - I can survive 4 years of Kerry if it comes down to it. I will support whomever is elected on Nov 2.; the time for presidential discussion and discourse has come to a close.

Let's get it done and get on with it!

@ All

As I will be out of town on business the rest of the week, I just want to take a moment to thank all of you for the opportunity to have a civilized political discussion. I have really enjoyed participating.

Pointless post forthcoming:
http://horseracing.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.horse-races.net%2Fsounds%2Fdwnstrch.wav

Latest poll data from electoral-vote.com as of Nov. 1:

Kerry - 298
Bush - 231

But it's still way closer than the data makes it appear to be. Is anyone else going to be biting their nails tomorrow?

@Chief- I agree with you. Whomever wins, we'll survive. But I want this country to thrive , not just survive.

Last edited: Monday, November 01, 2004 at 3:36:07 PM

I'm not about to start supporting that fear-monger orwellian monster bush, regardless...I'll fight him with all my feeble, non-existent, irrelevance....ah, screw it. I'll guess we'll all survive.

Mostly, I'm worried about how the environment will survive. Living in the environmental halocaust that is metro-tokyo, I don't want to see this duplicated in beautiful places like oregon, and washington, etc etc.