Sept. 30 @ 9 pm ET
Oct. 5, VP debate
Oct. 8
Oct. 13

Ready to think?

Last edited: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 at 3:28:52 AM

Bingo brother ROGUE

@ Rabban- interesting article you linked to. I'd say that the author even made some good points, but it's difficult to take it totally serious when he repeatedly insults Muslims the world over by using words like poor, sick, weak and ignorant many many times throughout the article. It was so laced with anger, I had difficulty understanding why he felt so strongly until I looked at the date it was written. At only around 1 year after September 11, it's obvious this guy was feeling some hostility towards Muslims. I half expected the term 'towel heads' to show up or an end to the article with a cry to eliminate them all.

As for his points, I will concede that there are many facets to their hatred towards the West. Sure, maybe the fact that the once great Persian empires were the cradle of civilization and culture, and is no longer, has them longing to return to those glorious times.

But you know what I found most interesting about the article? That this guy lays out the exact point we've been trying to make all along about keeping religious dogma out of the government. He claims that Israel is successful and powerful because it's based on a democracy, not a THEocracy, and is what puts it head and shoulders above all the Muslim countries surrounding it, most of who are not ruled by secular governments. He implores Muslim nations to not allow religious fanaticism to rule, but to instead embrace freedom, science and exploration. I agree, and it's what makes us a strong country as well. We don't have mullahs, rabbi's or priests running the country.

So then, why are you supporting Bush and his administration run by faith, rather than truth and logic? Do you not see the danger that he and his beliefs impose on democracy here?

Well said rogue.
you too OM

Last edited: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 at 10:33:04 PM

Rabban, I support your mother's wish - based on her beliefs - that her treatment involves no use of dead bodies whatsoever. No one should be able to force that on her.

At the same time, you (nor your mother, nor the President) have no right to force your beliefs upon anyone else. It is the height of hypocrisy for the President to state in a debate that medical care should be between a patient and a doctor (without government involvement in the form of Kerry's financial plan) then turn around and defend his governmental decree that abolishes the medical community's development of better ways to medically care for people.

Pardon, but those are some fooked priorities.

Logic prevails. It's interesting that this conversation has come full circle - again, and that even evidence that is meant to support religious as trumper of reason does quite the opposite.
How can you construct an argument for the role of religion over the role of critical thought when it requires critical thought to construct the argument?
Bluff called, and it's time to show cards and put your money where your mouth is. Religion as ruling doctrine is the stuff board games are made of.
___
Nice deconstruction OM. Israel is a secular state founded on religious principles, like the US once was.
Team Canada, always amusing. So dry, so pasty :).
Rabban, that's the best piece of evidence you can find supporting your claim? Yikes. Ignoring the fact that marriage is this artificial construct, one day I'll write about how much good it's done for me. Safe to say, if people in love with one another are fighting to hard for EQUAL RIGHTS, who are you or anybody else to say they don't deserve it?
Or is it not their right, because they aren't like you.

I said "screw it" and uninstalled TT. Don't have time to play with all of the reading.

Great posts guys. I'm refraining from posting due to Stink and I agreeing earlier - I don't want to upset that fragile balance.

Ps - hope all's okay on your end of Japan, Stinky.

Double post!

Before I disappear for the day - my New York liberal friend sent me this link - http://electoral-vote.com - pretty cool.

Interesting link chief. My end? Its ok...just survived another typhoon. Completely obliterated the woods behind my house where I like to hike. How's trix in....was it s. Carolina or n carolina?

South Carolina! It's still here. You voted yet? There's still time to change your mind........

No it's too late...voted for bush...i'm doing my part to speed on the rapture...

LOL

Hey Stinky, I hope you're OK man. I gather you weren't anywhere near those quakes pummeling poor northern Japan. They've been getting walloped! :S

Oh, I also wanted to post these 2 links. Good stuff, unless you happen to be GW Bush:

http://inprogress.typepad.com/republicanswitchers/

http://www.bushrelativesforkerry.com/pages/1/index.htm

Great links OM. And I'm ok, thanks....Japan has definitely been getting walloped lately...earthquakes and typhoons....

"Black! Black art thou, Kettle!" exclaimed the Pot.

We know, we know already! His damage control team's cringe muscles must be hellaciously sore by now. Or perhaps they don't even have them - a requirement for the job.

I just heard that on the radio, g. My thoughts exactly. Their propaganda throughout as been the democrats', minus 2 weeks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm
mmmm, look, over there, in the basket....

Vote kerry

OK...I'm Dilbert.

More later.

Last edited: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 at 7:08:47 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/americas/04/vote_usa/map/html/default.stm
A pretty cool set of graphics: while the state descriptions on the Key Battlegrounds tab are rather simplistic, the Play button on the Past Elections tab scrolls through the state-by-state maps for each election (with winner and loser statistics to the right) since 1948.

http://www.electablog.com/2004/10/bush-campaign-jumps-shark.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/27/politics/campaign/27CND-CAMP.html?hp&ex=1098936000&en=b1b6e3220cd012a7&ei=5094&partner=homepage
Irony: Breakfast of Champions.

That explains a lot, rabban...

Is the pointy-haired one supposed to be Bush? ;)

No, he represents the AVERAGE American voter of EITHER party...

Unfortunately, RWS, I think you're mostly correct on that one. Sound bites go a lot farther in this country than intelligent discourse.

What came first: Spin or Disinterest?

Weeee, and I've been away working.

@ OM

Way back there on the venom thing that you mentioned that I said...

Both candidates are saying, in nasty ways, essentially: don't vote for him.

That's all I meant. No personal attack on you intended. The reference was to the universal "you" and not you .

@ about the candidates

Not much more in the way of fresh ideas.

Just a lot of canned talk.

Last edited: Thursday, October 28, 2004 at 4:42:41 AM

@ terrorism

I reread my post from waaaaay back. I incorrectly wrote: "It is us or them, ya think?"

What I meant was: "Is it us or them, ya think?" It was a question.

My intention was to say that radical Islamists are true zealots. Nothing short of everyone converting to Islam will please them probably. No freedom of religion there.

Of course, my remark above ^ only scrapes the issue of terrorists and terrorism...

But I don't feel like going into it any further... Everyone just starts screaming wild opinions about the other guy's ideas. NO ONE addresses the subject! Kerry or....

Last edited: Thursday, October 28, 2004 at 4:58:34 AM

Oop, excuse, Rogue did make a few good points about terrorism.

To me, the most interesting part of the whole Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran thing, Rogue, in response to you, is that those countries had their borders drawn by the British and others. I don't mean that as a criticism of your point, just my observation.

How should these nations be put together? Like they were? Like they are? What of it is really our business anyway?

Afghanistan is a different situation from Iraq, though. Less Arab.

Last edited: Thursday, October 28, 2004 at 4:37:11 AM

@ Memphis

So there is no long term truth? No absolutes through time? Hmmm.

http://homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobush/iMovieTheater182.html
http://homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobush/iMovieTheater217.html

Last edited: Thursday, October 28, 2004 at 5:18:47 AM

Anyone watch Frontline? If you had, you wouldn't have any recourse to the myth of the WMD...Iraq was clearly on the wolfowitz /cheney pre-9/11 agenda. As if you didn't already know that...

@ jj, there is one eternal absolute.

Ps...thanks for those links tally...awesome stuff at that site

All men are created equal, aye men ?

RE The pics above

I just noticed something - looks like JFK has a brown substance on his thumb........

:) just being silly. My head is swimming from being spun so much.

Wow...page 3 is intense!!! Lol. I will have to come back when I have more time. And the I shall enter the fray..... %)

Please don't disappoint us Canucks, boyz.

(Demo) Cratic

Without Republicans monkeying with things in illegal fashion, Kerry wins.
Thus, I predict a Kerry defeat and things getting broken.

.beware the impending wrath o'zell.

I'm definitely gonna break some stuff....a gesture that will undoubtably be misinterpreted here in japan...

Just as I suspected: " common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include: fear and aggression, dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity, uncertainty avoidance, need for cognitive closure, and terror management that causes conservatives to shun and even punish outsiders and those who threaten the status of their cherished world views."

What a bunch of pussies...

http://www.reason.com/rb/rb102004.shtml

Gallup? Watsup? http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/003100.html

Total Sample = 1195
GOP: 466 (39%)
Dem: 406 (34%)
Ind: 321 (27%)

Total Sample: 1461
GOP: 542 (37%)
Dem: 500 (34%)
Ind: 411 (28%)

Whats with these samples? No wonder they have bush leading by a couple votes...now, considering that there are more registered democrats in the states, it could just be that the presidential monkey is in for a flogging...

link
check this link out!!!
I saw this on the news and wanted to share it.
LMAO..........

Last edited: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 6:51:22 AM

@ Tally

Vote tampering is a bipartisan effort.

@ all

Don't talk to anyone at voting stations. Especially the Democratic workers. They are the ones with the loose 60-ish clothes, who smile a lot, and treat you like a used car buyer.

BTW, early voting in my area has been incredible. Two and three hour waits at a dozen stations. Lines around the block. Turnout is extraordinary.

@ Stink

I am sure you break a keyboard a week. Always been convinced of it. No matter what the discussion is about.

Last edited: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 10:33:53 AM

Final thought (maybe)

Of the three kinds of voters, I think I am of the third group.

I am not a diehard Democrat or a diehard Republican.

Diehards are followers. No matter what the party does, rah-rah, follow along. Don't think, just believe.

I am a listening undecided. I heard it and I have made up my mind.

I tip my hat to Stink and others like him for deep thinking (stinking? :) ). Also, to a Tally, George, OM, or 44 (wherever he is skulking) for being loyal Democrats.

I am disappointed in the debate of this election.

Best example is this story of the 300 tons of missing explosives.

The NYT's timing was suspicious. No specifics on time were given in the story. (I heard it in the car and I started slapping the dashboard and yelling When! Yea, but when!) Later, I heard CBS wanted NYT to hold the story until Sunday since they are running a 60 Minutes piece on it too. Watch for that, heh.

Immediately, Kerry and Edwards charged Bush with losing the explosives. Many in the media later started pointing out that the facts were not all in on the story. Even Imus on MSNBC who is for Kerry said he couldn't understand why Kerry would charge Bush with this when the facts weren't in. Imus concluded that "these days anyone can say just about anything when running for political office." AND IMUS IS FOR KERRY.

How can anyone vote for a pair like Kerry and Edwards when they pull unthinking stunts like this. Worse than Bush...

HOWEVER, I am happy for all the competition that the mainstream media is getting this election. The mainstreamers don't dare push incredible stories without qualifying their facts better now. The bloggers and other news sources have access to the VOTERS. You will get bit in the butt for releasing bogus news.

HOWEVER, even with the alternate news sources, the candidates aren't being pushed hard enough on their policies. Undecided like me will vote for a candidate based on their campaign promises.

On NPR yesterday, I heard an incredible prediction that we won't hear any more "the premises of international law discussed" because it is too "dangerous" for the candidates. No more discussion on the candidate's policies on Iraq.

Don't tell me that there has been enough discussion already.

Lot of wind. Little content. Lot of finger pointing. Little commitment.

As Thomas Friedman, the NYT columnist, said the doubts are that Kerry won't be able to shoot the tiger when the time to hunt comes. Bush will shoot, but can he aim.

Since I can't hold the candidate's feet to the fire until they answer me, I expect the media to probe for the candidate's position on issues.

They have failed.

Especially, in these last weeks, many are biased and personally involved in the making election results. Too bad for the voters.

HOWEVER, us supposedly stupid UNDECIDEDS are not so gullible that we believe the last minute rhetoric of the candidates OR that we don't know that the candidates have hedged on specifics on future OR that the media is monkeying around.

Someone pays the piper eventually. Sadly, it is usually the common voter that does.

I am thankful that we give no one absolute political power in this country. It's just for four years, at least.

If, I have time I want to take a shot at the cute little Jon Stewart and Bill Mahler flicks. Nice propaganda pieces that are chock full of falacies... Heh, heh, later.

Last edited: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 11:39:41 AM

P.S.
Since Tally is now a moderator, I expect my post may vanish. XD

Let's see...

Maybe I can get dash, KBC, or Rabban to protect it....

Payola?

Last edited: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 11:35:04 AM

Come on JJ. An undecided? I have a real hard time believing that one based on your many comments on these forums. You've been dead against Kerry from day one, and pro-Bush all the way through. I find it sad that you won't stand up for yourself, and instead try to claim you're undecided.

Oh, and as for weapons missing, etc, etc. More evidence, and more excuses by the Pentagon.

Oh, and I've said this before, and I'll say it again, since you apparently didn't see it the first time. I don't vote Democratic or Republican. At times in my life I've actually leaned MORE toward the Republican side of issues. Yes, it's true, believe it or not. But how ANYONE can't see the duplicity, lies, corruption and mismanagement of this Bush administration is beyond me. I'm not a Democrat by default, and I don't love Kerry. But I feel I have no choice but to vote for Kerry/Edwards. The alternative is a disaster in the making. Bush had his chance. It's time for someone else to take over. ANYONE else.

@ OM

First, I will take that as an apology accepted. I will just assume that I needed to apologize.

Second, I have leaned toward Bush from the beginning, true. I was willing to listen to something better, however. Don't think that I am completely happy with Bush. Kerry could have won me over. But I never heard it from Kerry.

Otherwise, I have had fun yanking the chain of you Dems here. Not only does Stink break keyboards, I assume Tally smashes things and yells "Doh!" when he reads conservative posts. A passionate bunch of diehards...

BTW, none of the passionate conservatives have taken much part in these forums. Why would they?

Last edited: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 11:54:29 AM

Apology? I wasn't looking for one. I just assumed you hadn't seen one of my previous posts on my political stance. Sorry if that came off as looking for one.

As for me, I won't be breaking things on Nov. 3 if Bush gets re-elected, but my heart will be very sad indeed. We need a change in our government, as I see things. I dread another 4 years of his ineptness.

Lastly, as for the passionate conservatives not participating much in these forums, I can take a few guesses why but I won't go there, today.

I will.

If you read the rest of the article that stinky linked, what does it say about the difference between those on the high end of the RWA scores (conservatives) and those on the low end (liberals)? Let's see:

Sounds to me like liberals tend to welcome rather than avoid differing opinions.

Frankly, I think the closest that Bush has come to proposing an alternative approach to to replace my support for maintaining environmental regulations is when he thinks that offering industrial corporations financial incentive for cleaning things up themselves (rather than being pushed into it by state and federal agencies). Recently I have worked on several projects for industrial clients going through voluntary corrective action (cleanup) programs at both the state and federal levels (one of which was the first-ever USEPA-approved VECAP: Voluntary Environmental Corrective Action Program). The client still had to let the agency know what their investigation and cleanup plans and results were, but as long as the surrounding community was kept informed at regular meetings (monthly during heavy investigation and construction activity periods and semi-annually otherwise) the client could avoid the long delays while the agencies reviewed their plans/reports in detail. The advantage is that it took only 2.5 years to go through a process that typically takes around 10 years under agency-ordered programs. However - and this is key - the client companies never would have budged to start this work if the enforcable regulations were not in place. It does not work if you simply just remove or relax regulations - the regulations must be coupled with an improved process that encourages industry to move ahead of agency enforcement.

Last edited: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 12:54:04 PM

@stink I acknowledged the fact that unbelievers do have a sense of morality. However, that standard for that morality is definitely subject to change. What youre talking about it basically doing what is right in your opinion. In that case I have to agree with George, that you cant enforce your beliefs onto anyone else since you really have no moral authority. Your sense of morality can change depending on the circumstances. In can say in my defense that my morality is internalized as well, but in my case my morality agrees with Gods. Thats why I would see a need to be reconciled with God in the first place. I knew that I was disobeying Gods morality and that I was out of fellowship with Him, however my rebellious nature wants to keep doing those things that are pleasurable to me. So in one sense it is true that I obey a command, but an internal agreement with Gods morality draws me to do so (this was true before my conversion as well). But if you where as moral as you think you are, you would come to God and seek a restored relationship with Him. As it is, you actually judge yourself more moral than God when you accuse Him of wrong doing while ignoring the wrong within your own life. Sure, Ill grant you that youre a decent guy trying to do the right thing (however you define it), but we both know youve done some crappy things in your life (we all have). Either you still feel bad about those things, youre gotten over it while realizing it was wrong, or youve justified yourself and rationalized that it wasnt so bad and/or they deserved it. But then, who hasnt? You seem somewhat familiar with Jesus teachings. Why do you resist him if your internalized sense of morality is so strong? It would seem the two of your could agree easily.

As far as the origins of my religious views. Obviously I believe they originate with God at the creation. Everyone had an equal knowledge of God back then, but some still chose to rebel against him. After awhile they had a spiritual need to fulfill, but instead of turning to the author of that need, they devised their own systems of worship and developed their own religions. So it doesnt surprise me that ancient religions and such would have similar themes and ideas passed down through the ages. Thats why when Jesus came on the scene, he made a point to make it very clear that he was The way, the truth and the life and that no one came to God except through him.

@Rogue -

I like that idly by statement. It infers so much. Bravo. Youve also inferred Im using a Gods will argument, but Ive yet to use the phase. Bravo again. And lets not forget how youre trying to paint me as a hypocrite. Excellent! Your religious prejudices are really coming out.
I still disagree with your embryo to soldier comparison. The embryos are harvested as a result of an abortion (another immoral act) and treated as a commodity. The abortion industry is turning into a business more and more. I liken the practice to what the Nazis did during the Holocaust with Jewish prisoners (non people), scientific experiments (research) for the good of mankind. Stem cells is people.

Youre going on your assumption that the war in Iraq is evil and that I must agree with your position. I dont. The soldiers there volunteered for service and they knew war could be on the dotted line when they signed. They made that decision. Also, you seem to be more upset about it then they are. Most of the reports and personal experiences Ive heard reflect a fighting force whos proud to serve in Iraq and theyre pleased with the good (see stinky) theyre doing over there. The Iraqis seem pretty happy with it as well.

I think your outrage has made you crazy. So, like, since I believe in the DEATH of Jesus on the cross I should support stem cell research? You really dont know anything about my faith, do you?

Are you foaming at the mouth at this point? This is ludicrous. Do you feel that by loving someone that I also have to accept their lifestyle, whatever it may be? I mean, yeah, Ill always love my son, but if he gets into trouble Im not going to condone his actions because I love him. Youre talking crazy.

And while I read the Bible, my faith is based in a person, Jesus Christ, who is Truth.
Ill just let your prejudices against rural people speak for themselves, but dont delude yourself into thinking I was staring at all those big buildings in DC and trying to figure out how they got the water to come into them. Ive been around, OK? Ive lived in San Antonio, close to Salt Lake City and Ive traveled the world during my 5 years in the US Air Force.

Isnt this supposedly your religion as well?

Anyway, if you would bother to read that two thousand year old publication written by an oppressive and male dominated society you might have an idea what it really says. When Jesus was praying in the garden, he prayed, Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done. He was submitting himself to the fathers plans. He also said to his disciples Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? after one of them trying to defend Jesus from being taken by the crowd. Jesus volunteered.

@george -

But you have the right to force your beliefs on us? Seems this argument is only directed at Christians or people of faith, but as I posted earlier, everyone has a belief system which guides their lives. I dont know why a nonbelievers beliefs would somehow carry more weight than a believers.

@Tally Ho - I just think homosexual marriages are going to have some serious impacts on our culture that we're not expecting.

Last edited: Monday, November 01, 2004 at 12:06:08 PM