PLEASE just go away if you are not interested in this topic... No need to be a spoiler... Thanks....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I realize that any time I bring a religous topic to the table, you may be skeptical about my intentions.... Rightfully so... But I am here to ask a few simple and honest questions.....

I imagine that these may be "religion 101" to some of you, but on behalf of those of us that are curious but not able to devote the time to research, I invite the knowledgeable to share information....

----- 1) Why did God choose THAT date/time to bring Jesus to the world? Why not now, or thousands of years earlier, or thousands of years from now?

----- 2) Why did God choose to let Jesus suffer such horrible tortures and finally such a tragic and horrible death? I am not being facetious, I really am trying to understand this.

----- 3) When and why will Jesus return?. Is there any significance as to the date of his resurrection?

----- 4) When Jesus returns, how will we know he is authentic?

I realize the big dollar question for 2000 years has been "When will Jesus return?"... And I am sure only God knows the answer....I am just curious about your personal opinions on this topic.....

Thanks for your indulgence.... I PROMISE not to debate... I am on an information quest....

Katherine

Last edited: Sunday, July 18, 2004 at 3:49:47 AM

Yikes, when Rabban comes back, he brings a full essay! Pretty good stuff in there. Hey, TG, you still with us? ;)
- BombJames Bomb

Thanks, JB?

Last night I found a good answer to #4.

The real Jesus is going to make a very big entrance.

Why the "?". Is my response ambiguous?

- BombJames Bomb

So what are you trying to say? Are you saying I'm long winded??? Me??? Long winded??? <whooooooosh!> %)

Well, I wouldn't want to accuse you of that, since that would sort of be like the kettle calling the pot black! :P
- BombJames Bomb

Are you ready for some dogma? I breezed past this question many moons ago, but always wanted to throw some info out there. So here goes.

TG - the questions that you pose are based in my observation on your interpretation of the classic teachings of the nature of God. Traditional dogma teaches that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. I am not for certain, but I would guess that your personal experiences has brought many Christian teachings into question, as it has for many others in this community. If I can encourage anything, I would say continue to question, continue to push and engage your intellectual pursuit of knowing what God is all about. That is theology and any one preacher, teacher, minister or priest worth the collar that they wear will listen and engage with you as well. In my mind, that is where many leaders have failed. These are hard questions, and everybody has them, what you have to do is reconcile that desire to understand with the epistemic distance that is present with the sinner and the divine. So I hope you can find someone who will faithfully engage your questions personally. _{(doesn't mean that they'll have good answers, but hopefully they will be willing to work with you)}

That having been said the phizzle takes his turn at the plate.

1- In theology we have what is termed the kairos, that is God's time which is remarkably different from our own time; it termed Chronos. The kairotic moment which you bring to the forefront, is the time where God freely acted at that moment in history so that we no longer needed to come to God, but rather God came to us. God became human, however that may have worked out metaphysically, it is here where the one who took human flesh into his person takes human sin into his mission. That is, typically religion states that you have to work towards a goal, a telos, a place where you will experience the divine and then everything will be hunky dory. The problem with that is, sin has so invaded humanity that there is no way that you can actually get to that telos and God doesn't want you to. Rather God came to us in the person of Jesus Christ so that nothing could separate us from God and nothing can condemn us either. This is God's answer to the human quest for a "God" goal, God initiates the action so that we might know God.

2 - The second question has to do with your understanding of the omnipotent God. Maybe another question may be posed, if God is all powerful, then why do people suffer? Well the hard answer is that the wages for human sin is death, pain, suffering and in that there seems to be a God who is vengeful, angry, wicked. If God truly loves us, why do we suffer pain? We suffer because we live in a sinful world, yes that does lead us to say that God is too judgmental or maybe even evil. As a grounding point then, I assume that God is primarily a God who loves, agape in the Greek. God also has a committment to this world, that which was set in place when God intiated God's own good creation. Within that we have been given huge amounts of freedom, freedom to believe or not believe freedom to love whomever we choose, freedom to work within a vocation that best utilizes our God-given gifts. But freedom does have its price and there is pain in our own interactions, there is pain when creation goes awry, (it was good, not perfect), and God is so committed to that freedom that we have been given, that God cannot intervene even to prevent the suffering of his own Son. Freedom flourshes and flounders and the committment by God is so absolute that God cannot intervene in the workings of the world that were set in place, even in the course of saving God's own Son. God does work within the structure, but in a self-limiting way, usually in such a way as to bring God's children to wholeness, and usually through the relationships that we have with others. God works with and within people, ask Rabban, the Bible's full of God working within even those who do not believe. Also, the one who suffered such horrible tortures and tragic death, knows those who suffer these same things. Christ did not come to save the righteous or those who have it all figured out, Christ came to save the sinner, those who are chastised and left behind. The cross of Christ is where God is revealed to be a God who suffers for the sake of those who also suffer indignity and very real pain.

3 - There is no date as to Christ's coming again, we can only prepare by asking theological quesions and engaging the God that we have come to know or even to have disdain for. Those who say they have specifics are usually full of there own rudiments. _{Wait this isn't the cow thread?}

4 - When Jesus comes again, you will know. Everyone will know, it won't be a white guy wandering around in New York or Athens or Jerusalem, when he comes again he's bringing the noise. It will be the time when the kairos will be complete and God will make all things new. I don't know what that looks like, I just hope and pray that I am ready for it.

To wrap up, I hope that helps or at least gives you a grounding to ask more. No one will have all the answers because we are different from God, that isn't intended to be a cop-out either. God works differently than we do, that is what makes God pretty awesome. And God is subtle, the great things that happen usually occur and we don't even know what went on. When we most want to find God, God hides. This is not a game for God, but rather we just don't need to know, because when the time is right all will be given unto us. But God is revealed in one way, in the one who suffered for the world, the one who takes our sin onto himself and pleads for the ones that he loves on our behalf.

Peace to you as you continue your wilderness wanderings...

Memph

Last edited: Sunday, September 12, 2004 at 12:51:06 AM

VERY interesting Memphis......

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative reply.
:-)
Katherine

No prob, hope it helps, btw you should read some CS Lewis theological writings, "the problem of pain" is good as well as "Mere Christianity". Both solid reads from a former atheist.