No matter who is right or wrong.
No one deserves to starve to death.
If someone starves a dog they go to jail.
Thats all I'm going to say.

I don't understand really why the republicans are so up in arms. Are they running for something?
From the "you cannot be serious" department:
http://mediamatters.org/items/leftsidefront/200503230005
http://mediamatters.org/items/leftsidefront/200503230003
http://mediamatters.org/items/leftsidefront/200503220003
http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220007
Show of hands: If have the misfortune of turning into an irrecoverable vegetable, do you want to be kept alive by machine?
anyone?

Not. I'm a mere life.
I don't want my relatives to burdened with my shell.

I came and went like a grass of blade.

@Tally: From the one article I've read (the parent's site), they are contesting that she is in an irrecoverable vegetative state. Assuming that's what they honestly believe (and not just spin), if your son-in-law was proposing pulling the plug on your daughter when you didn't think she was permanently vegetative, wouldn't YOU fight it? Again, that's assuming that that is their actual opinion and not just hype.

I forgot where I read about her brain and saw a photograph ( allegedly ) of her cat scan.
Anyway, none of us are doctors, and I don't think discussing the width of her hope sliver will be worthwhile, which is why I wrote "irrecoverable."
We all get our number called eventually...

Agreed. Personally, I'm not sure it's still worth staying on if I can't feed myself, or have any meaningful discourse with those around me. But my personal opinions are not binding on her family.

@Flea

LOL

@Rabban

If the far right genuinely believes in the sanctity of life, then why do they support the death penalty, favor allowing people to buy automatic assault weapons and put bumper stickers on their cars promoting a war that results in the deaths of thousands of innocent people. And, if they genuinely believe in states rights, then why do they pass intrusive federal legislation when the states do things that they disagree with. And...

The Schiavo debacle is making hypocrites out of lots of folk...liberals and conservatives alike.

I couldn't agree more with 44.

When President Bush announced he supports "a culture of life" I look at his record and don't see much to support what he's purporting with any integrity really.

My prayers are with Terry Schiavo and her family.

Aye, sadly, if they stood for something, at least I'd give them that.
But little that they do is about the protection of values; instead, they project and exercise power in the name of those values [ as illustrated by ]http://mediamatters.org/items/200503240005]
I find it a yawner.
-----
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/03/20/regarding-the-cat-scan-of-terri-schiavos-brain/
-----

Last edited: Thursday, March 24, 2005 at 5:31:34 PM

This is a problem that only nature can answer I say leave the feeding tube out if her brain develops put the tube back in if it doesnt let her startve she cant feel anything she can think she cant remember she cant learn how he is now I know I wouldnt want my child/wife to be basically a vegetable instead of wasting time and money on trying to save her life let her life save others let them use her organs and donate them to needing people instead of basically wasting them on a half-dead brainless woman with no hope.

^punctuate much?

Jury's out on far right hypocrisy. It seems to have reached such unpalatable levels that even some of you posting from alternate realities are starting to chew it up a bit.

Now for a self-hypocrisy check: lets cut this "our politicians are all jerks" garbage. We voted for them. Own it. They wouldn't be jerks if we wouldn't let them be. The senators from my state have been making me proud lately. How many of these GOP panderers are from your states? Your president is pandering to this issue...did you vote for him? Just saying, "politicians are all corrupt" excuses your own actions. Own up to your complicity. Positive change comes from personal responsibility.

If you don't personally have any integrity, how can you expect your representatives to have any? Its not enough to stand for something. Stand for something good...and don't make excuses for representatives that don't.

Last edited: Thursday, March 24, 2005 at 5:33:42 PM

Well said, sir. We are those who elect the bozos, and we need to be more responsible about how we handle the elections. So many fall for the flash, but fail to see the lack of substance. Rather than saying politicians are jerks, we should question why we allow jerks to be elected.

I personally can't stand the slime associated with this deeply personal and private issue that a family has to confront.

Huh, I thought this thread was about a dying woman , her husband's struggle to carry out her wishes, and her parents struggle to keep her alive. Silly me! I should have known it was another Republican bashing thread.

Leave the politics out. Should they keep her alive or not?

Flea is developing an allergy to somethin'.

MJ...too late to leave politics out...the GOP beat us all to it.

Great post Stink. Had me staring at the ceiling for a long time last night and planning to write a letter this morning. Thanks.

This is a national issue and I think that we all should realize it.

Cat got it right.

This is about which question of many takes precedence or is the first one to answer.

Some look at the political aspects/questions. Some look at the medical/technical questions. Some look at the ethical question first.

If I have the right to pull your feeding tube, then I have the right to not feed you when I lock you in a cell. Viva la Citizens!?

Last edited: Friday, March 25, 2005 at 7:50:04 AM

Nothing but tragedy surrounds this situation. No matter how this ends up, pain will be experienced by parties on both sides. The question that should be asked is: how do we honestly deal with another person's pain? Can you callously discard Terri's life as if she is nothing but a vegetable? No. But can you honestly say that she has quality of life, or has she even for the last 15 years? I have to question the validity of letting someone live in such a state, for the mere consolation of keeping her around. Death is not something to be feared. Living in the state that Terri has come to, is.

This issue is so thick with dysfunctionality that I don't know where to begin. On the one hand you have her parents, who love their child, want the best for their child, but are also attempting, in my observation to make up for some of the failures of the past. Eating disorders, which caused her condition are not something that you just 'get'. It's a symptom of a dysfunction within the family. Also, mom may still be trying to control her child in whatever way she can, and keeping her alive is just another way to do that.

There's one place to begin. The other is to begin with her husband, and we don't know much about him, but he enabled Terri as well, and now maybe he wants to forget all of the stuff of the past and just move on. Maybe he shouldn't perhaps there are things that he needs to own up to. Also, I find it incredibly ironic that a woman who didn't want to eat anything, is now being force fed by a tube.

I begin and end with the question of faith, and what is it that God wants for us? God wants us to be in loving relationships with God and with others until the day our time is no more. Perhaps what needs to be said to Terri by all parties involved is that they are sorry, and that they love her very much. And even though they don't want to see her die, they need to let her go. Then begins the time for their own healing.

All of these things are not part of the function of government. To intervene in such a delicate personal thing, is also something to be feared. This is an issue about life and death, and it doesn't need to be solved nor can it be solved by any amount of regulation. No government intervention can provide the kind of healing that these people need.

Don't confuse the issue with the primary statement in the Declaration of Independence without forgetting how it ends. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Where is the pursuit of happiness when a life that was vibrant and full can no longer function for herself, and now relies on medical technology to keep her alive? I have yet to meet someone who has said that they would be happy if they could live the rest of their life in a vegetative state.

Last edited: Friday, March 25, 2005 at 9:15:37 AM

Personally, I don't think Congress, the White house, the Governor, or the Florida legislature should be involved. Losing a loved one is hard. I can't imagine what it would feel like to have to make the decision on "pulling the plug" on a loved one. I can understand why Terri's husband is asking to remove the tube. He is trying to honor her wishes. I also understand why her parents are fighting to keep her alive. They don't want to see their child die. They won't give up hope.

If she is in a persistent vegetative state, then let her go. Don't keep her body alive just to avoid the emotional pain of losing her. The Terri they all know and love is gone. Let it end. If there really is hope of some sort of limited recovery, then keep her alive and give her a chance. But, it has been 15 years since the heart attack. If there is no real sign of her recovering, shouldn't they let her go?

I do wonder what role the money from the malpractice settlement plays in all this saga. Is the legal fight over losing a loved one or getting some cash? Is there really any cash left to fight over? Would the tube have been pulled a long time ago if there had been no settlement?

@Stinkfingers

No, the GOP didn't beat us too it. The media did. The legal battle has been going on for over 7 years. The media decides to make it a front page story and the politicians came running. The GOP wasn't the only party hanging around D.C. To vote. The Democrats were there too. It took all of 3 posts before the thread was directed in a political slant to continue bashing the GOP. Is that the only thing you people have to focus on?

Actually, this thread started as an off-shoot of "thanks democrats" thread...so...the discussion evolved from a bash democrats thread.

I could post something about armies if you like.

If you think this isn't political...well, that's an interesting take. If you think the dems and the gop are both equally pandering, your off target there as well.

JJ: political prisoners and people in vegetative states...same same?

Last edited: Friday, March 25, 2005 at 8:47:55 PM

The death penalty is for people who have committed crimes worthy of such a punishment. An act that kills an innocent person (euthanization, abortion) is an act of a 'culture of death.' Euthanasia and the death penalty are simply not comparable. And furthermore, not all republicans support it.

This SHOULD have been a private matter, but terri's family decided to take it to court, and have been waging a battle over her for the past several years. When they took it to court, it ceased to be a 'private matter.'

Ive heard a hundred conflicting reports on her condition, people who are saying she's a vegtable and others who say she conciously responds to the world around her.
Ive heard Mr. Schiavo has denied all access to examine her except for 'pre appointed' physicians.
Ive also heard that he will collect a large sum of money when she dies, and that he 'spontaneously' remembered her rather vague reference to 'not wanting to live like that' only 7 years after she became brain damaged.

In my view, he clearly is interested in killing her so he can get the money.

I read a letter sent in to the local newspaper the other day...It said:

"Too bad Mrs. Schiavo isnt a Terrorist prisoner, a Death row inmate, or even a abused dog. Maybe then the democrats would come to bat for her."

People dont value 'life' anymore. In your typical secular laymans opinion, "if you dont have your cadillac and your swimming pool, your life aint worth living."

A 'not so good life' is better than none at all. And who are you to say that her life isnt 'good'? When was the last time you were in her position? How do you know what its like? "Quality of life" is relative, thats why the rich liberals are the most virulent opponents of her feeding tube being reinserted.

If she indeed is begging us to kill her, and we are letting her live, then that is a 'denial of suicide' for her. If she actually WANTS to continue living and we kill her, that is a horrible error...Much worse than the former one. If we must err, then let us err on the side that has the 'least grave' concequences.

The process of law is something that should not be trampled over, but neither should activist judges make rulings that are uninformed and biased. A judge who rules that she should die when there are so many conflicting reports out there, and no way of really knowing one way or the other is doing just that.

One last comment.

If she must die, dont starve her. Give her a leatal injection, or a shotgun to the head. It'd be much less painful.

<---- prepares scalpel...

I got your "culture of life" right here:

CNN is reporting that the FBI has arrested a North Carolina man for offering, via the internet, a reward of $200,000 for the murder of Michael Schiavo, and an additional $50,000 for the murder of Judge Greer.

Spooky what lurks in the fringes...chosing this incident as a way to pay back the relgious right for their support at the polls seems to be backfiring in more ways than one...

Hollar flea.
I need time to reply to the EventH post, like takin out a zepellin...

Last edited: Friday, March 25, 2005 at 11:35:01 PM

Bonkers™

1) A feeding tube is NOT a machine
2) The woman was anerxic which lead to her current condition
3) Most days I feel like most of the world has 25 percent brain function loss
4) Everything happens for a reason
5) She has nothing of her wishes in writing or on record. That fact there says it all!
6) It's for none of us to judge her quality of life
7) She will be dead in a few hours if someone doesn't intervene

Pray for her
Pray for all involved
Pray This never happens to you!

Moral of this story.....WRITE WHAT YOU WANT TO HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU SHOULD GET HURT OR DIE AND PUT A DNR ORDER IN YOUR MEDICAL FILE!
(DNR=do not resussitate)

The ONE known as Death is not prejudice on age, race, sex, creed, or other!

These idiots act like Michael Schiavo and Terri's parents went to court for the first time two weeks ago. As if Michael walked up to one judge and said, "I want to pull the plug." And then the parents said, "We don't want to pull the plug." As if the judge went back to his chambers, mulled it over for a couple minutes, came back and made an uninformed, unilateral decision and said, "let's pull it."

You are perfectly within your rights to believe all the reports you hear about lying husbands, greed, limited diagnoses, Terri's level of responsiveness, Terri's prospects for improvement, etc., etc.. Next month Fox News, Savage Nation and Rush Limbaugh will have more quality reports on other topics for you to soak up.

When you get bored with the rhetoric, might I suggest you pick up a newspaper, dig into this thing a little bit, and look at the facts. This thing has been fully scrutinized by legal and medical professionals for years and years and years. Many judges. Many doctors. Many ethics panels. All have made the same decision based on lots of analysis, legal precedent and good, strong evidence.

The facts are...Terri is in a persistent vegitative state. Her life is being artificially maintained through a medical treatment. Patients have the right to refuse medical treatment. When patients are unable to express their wishes, family may do so on their behalf. Marriage trumps all other familial relationships in these matters.

You can argue any or all of the facts...but the truth is, the very best medical and legal minds in our country have all agreed upon them. This was not an "uninformed and biased" decision made by a single, "activist judge". You are now witnessing an exhaustively and thoroughly analyzed problem coming to it's unfortunate conclusion.

Don't agree with it? That's fine. But don't rewrite the facts. Oh, and while you're at it, get your goddamn "culture of life" ideology and bible the hell away from our medicine and law -- they don't belong there anymore than they belong in our bedrooms or schools.

Last edited: Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 4:44:44 AM

EventH - a shotgun or leathal injection would be less painful if you believe she is not a vegitable. If she is then she's not feeling anything anyway.

I can't imagine this is for the money...

They've been in court for 8 years. The parents have said that all 23 decisions against them in that time frame are wrong and that every judge that has ruled against them hasn't looked at all the facts. I mean, seriously. That's what bugs me most - it seems like the media is making this look like it's been going on for 4 months. The parents have lost every time and now, that it's down to the wire they start pleading to the politicians to "save" their daughter. If they knew the law they would know there is nothing jeb or w bush can do... They never should have been involved in the first place.

Fo Fo:

A feeding tube hardly qualifies as 'artificial life support.' All babies and mentally/physically disabled people cannot feed themselves.

I have a hard time agreeing with any 'facts' when I see no actual evidence quoted anywhere.

'Oh, a doctor appointed by Mr. Schiavo 5 years ago said she is PVS.' That is not 'evidence.' You quote no athorities in your post, and so that leads me to conclude nothing after reading it, save for an idea of your opinion on the matter.

A vague reference to 'many medical professionals' seems to be enough to convince the brainwashed these days...Used to take much more than that. ;)

Until the 'facts' are made easily accessible to all and thoroughly scrutinized, there will remain a rather large shadow of a doubt in the minds of many.

I read the newspaper, thank you, and I see much talk of 'conflicting evidence,' no 'decisive' conclusions. Its not as clear as you make it out to be. 'Conservative groups assert this, while others assert that' does not make for a solid case.

Now, possibly the judges were privy to 'evidence' that has been kept away from the media...Id like to see some of that, if it does indeed exist.

And to use the ad nauseam repeated saying. 'The fact of the matter is' that the facts arent clear. Thats why I said I had HEARD several different opinions, rather than shoving them down the throats of all as 'hard facts.'

This lady's wishes arent clear, any idiot can see that. The entire case is built upon the (rather shaky) presumption that she made a rather vague comment loosely pertaining to 'not wanting to live like that' many years ago. Theres nothing written on paper, its something that only Mr. Schiavo supposedly heard. To kill someone based on the testimony of one man is rediculous. If it was shown that Mr. Schiavo made the statement up, (which, I think everyone can agree, would not have been that hard) the entire case would fall apart.

Another thing, why do we have to kill her when her parents are willing to take care of her?

...And get your goddamn atheist 'culture of death' ideology away from me, medicine and the courts as well. It ain't healthy. ;)

Silbarcalis: Why prolong death? If she doesnt feel, (you know this how?) just kill her in the most expedient way.

Last edited: Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 6:11:11 AM

And stink:

Thats one radical wingnut. They exist on the left too. ;)

Last edited: Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 6:26:37 AM

@EventH

It matters not one bit whether the medical treatment is a heart machine, a respirator, insulin, blood transfusion or a feeding tube. What is of relevance, is that Terri is receiving medical treatment to prolong her life. The law states that we have the right to refuse medical treatment (see jehovah's witnesses and christian scientists for lots of examples with things far less "artificial" then a feeding tube). The law further states, in hundreds of cases similar to this one, that in the absence of a patient's ability to express their wishes, the responsibility rests with the guardian. Further, the law states that spouses trump parents for guardianship.

But, why no difficulty apparently agreeing with bullshit from Michael Savage? Look at my statements. Look at your statements. Which are more credible? You want actual evidence? Easy -- read on.

Here's the link to the court's decision. Read the part about the five independent physicians who evaluated her current condition and prospects for improvement.

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/Nov22%202002%20TC%20%20trialctorder11-02.txt

Try google. You can find transcripts of all the court testimony. Nothing is hidden. Here's the report of one of the physicians.

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

Wrong for a couple of reasons. First, the courts thoroughly examined Michael's claims regarding Terri's comments. Testimony was provided by multiple parties and referenced specific conversations in which Terri commented about her desire never to be placed on artificial life support. The testimony reflected conversations at or proximate to funerals of close family members who had been on artificial life support. The context and content of the testimony was deemed credible and consistent by the court. Second...and to your point about the entire case being "built upon" and "would fall apart" without...if your wife is in persistent vegitative state and you are her guardian, unless she put in writing that she wanted to be maintained artificially, you can make the decision for her to pull the plug. Her wishes unless documented, believe it or not, are nearly irrelevant.

Again, you might like to think that the decision was based on an "atheist, culture of death". It was not. The decision was based on sound medical, legal and ethical considerations. Just because the decision isn't aligned with your ideology doesn't make it a "horrible error" or me a "radical wingnut".

Last edited: Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 7:48:03 AM

@DrSawbones™(UF) You hit it on the head.
Since when is hearsay allowed in court?
In reply to some of the posts.
@44

We all receive medical treatment to prolong our lives. As far as

Some have been sentenced to do time for neglect for not seeking medical treatment for their kids>
Can't feed their self can't talk or walk,What should we do?

Can't feed him self, can't talk heck he can't even see, What should we do?

Can't eat can't breath by himself can't even move,what should we do?

Can't remember how to eat doesn't even know where he is or who he is ,what should we do?

What quality of life do these people have?
Should we let them starve to death?
Who should decide?
Should we let a relative decide their fate?
Should a court decide if they should live or die?
Where will it end? Who will be next?

Last edited: Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 9:38:22 AM

Which one of those four have no cognitive functioning? Which one of those four have no prospects for improvement? Which one of those four have guardians choosing to pull the plug?

Weak, irrelevant and bogus comparison. Someone should pull your feeding tube.

Last edited: Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 9:33:31 AM

Only one has hope for improvement.
Can you guess witch one.
I'm just asking where are we going to draw the line.
You know how the law works some one gains a little and it leaves the door open to further laws.
cognitive functioning what about people with MS?

Last edited: Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 9:46:05 AM

Slippery slope argument...blaaaaaaaaargh....
<---twirls hammer...

Terry Is half way braindead she cant think she cant remember anything an infant is smarter than her she is only running on the food she is given she is trapped in her own body and her parents wont give her the key to let her go and that key is death everyone dies eventually and its the sad truth but we must make the best of life this is false hope let her go become a free spirit I knoew I wouldnt want to be trapped inside my body I wouldnt want my sister brother aunt uncle mother fath or whatever relative or anyone to be in such a torturous state if we take the feeding tube out she wont feel the pain of starvation it isnt torture if you cant feel it emotionally or physically her actions are only reflexes her smile her arms her voice everything.

Wow! 44!

Event...that's why I said fringes. The difference between the radical left and the radical right is...is partially one of political access...left politicians don't pander to radical lefties...partly because radical lefties hate them. That and the fact that while the radical right will kill people over ideology, the radical left typiclally target property ala ELF. Right now, those looneys on the right fill empowered by gw's professed 'values." I can guarantee you that ELF et al never felt empowered by the clinton administration.

Cat. Really weak analogy. The lady has no cerebral cortex. Neurologically, she unlike any of the emotion laden images you posted. Does that mean she should be snuffed out? Not for me to say. Its also not for you to say. Its for her family to decide. If they can't, they have all manner of legal tradition to fall back on. I've never had to make a decision like that. I can tell you this...i wouldn't let my dog suffer like that, let alone my wife. You ask where we draw the line. We draw the line all the time, no? That line gets blurred though when one's religious convictions trump one's civic participation. Separation of church and state only sounds better and better to me, and this is why.

44 is right. The reason the right are so riled up is chiefly because of the amplification of this event by conservative media. And also because of the political payback the republicans owe the religious right...

Doubtless there are hundred other cases very similar to this be quietly handled by families all across the nation.

Stinky nailed it:

"...And also because of the political payback the republicans owe the religious right......"

I disagree with the conservative media blowing this up though. This has been on conservative talk shows for at least 2 years.

First of all if you read the story, this lady has been on a feeding tube for nearly 15 years, and she has not een recovered a bit since it happened. Her husband has loved her very much, and even tried to get a degree in nursing so he could help her. He now has a girlfriend, with two kids, but cannot officially marry hiw wife, unless he divorces his wife. Maybe this is why he took out the feeding tube, but maybe it's not.
But if you may know, doctors say she does not have much of a chance, not that I am siding with them. The husband has tried to take out the feeding tube many times, but failed. While she is in this state without a feeding tube, she will maybe have about a week or two to live. Her parents still think that Terri will live, but it's highly unlikely. I hope she will survive, but for now we won't know. Time is running out for the parents. I hope she will survive, but as I said, it is unlikely. The one thing I wonder though, is does she hear her parents or others talk to her, and does she feel her pain. She hasn't talked in 15 years while in that state of trauma. It must be hard to see your child end up like that. Hopefully they will put back in the feeding tube, but it will cost a lot of money, and it may even more painful for Terri, for having a slow death is probably not the best thing to feel. Hope things turn out for the best.

-AncientOne

P.S
Doctors think that she will only live for 15 days after she has been taken off the feeding tube. That's a short amount of time for the parents now, for they have around 7 more days left.

For what it's worth, affidavits from people in the room the day her feeding tube was removed.
http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/032505vitadamo.htm
http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/032505weller.htm

Assuming the sources are trustworthy, apparently she laughs at jokes and was trying to talk.

I'm glad I'm not the one making this decision.

CAT -- sorry for the "pull your tube" comment. Uncalled for.

HAMMER

NAIL: "The reason the right are so riled up is chiefly because of the amplification of this event by conservative media. And also because of the political payback the republicans owe the religious right..."

44 No problem I expected such from posting in such a emotional thread.
My last post to this thread.
My point is that there are thousands or more , of mentally challenged people in this world that are no different then Terry.
There is no real way of knowing if she feels pain or understands what is said to her. (no matter what the doctors say, they have been wrong in the past, also remember the word practice in the medical field) She has no way to express it.
I don't want a precedence set to use against people in the future.
This might be total different but recently I saw a program on DSC or such.
This man was in a coma for nineteen years. Doctors said no hope for him to come around. Or have a life other then laying in bed.
Guess what happened? You got it , he woke up. He still thought it was 19 years ago. He understood every thing said to him.
Of course he could not move his muscles, because of being in bed so long.
Every one has their own opinion. And in the end there will only be one judge.

All I can say is WTF.

We know very little about life, afterlife, reincarnation, and how we were created. Has anyone thought if there was ONE life to live? We starve her to death because she struggles every morning? Who knows where we go when we die, it could be worse. Let the woman live. The only real person who lost their mind is Terri Schiavo's husband .

The bottom line.

Theres a way to save her, so why are we killing her again?

Tank