If you were causing lag and winning would you admit it?
Does your bad connection and the ability to lag out the server make you a more skilled player?
Should you admit that you have a bad connection and lagging so that we all know that it is your lag that is bogging down the server, making it harder for the rest of us to play normally?
Should you admit that you have a bad connection and lagging so that we all know that when you teleport into the goal 4 times and win the game, that it was a bunch of laggy BS.
...

I've been getting the bizarre impression from noobs and some others that they think, the lag they are causing, is a part of their skill. These same dudes make the mistake of showing up in a modded server after playing indie, only to find out they have like 200 - 350 ms pings. Skills may arse!

It is never actually a surprise, but... What I don't get is how they can claim that they are not lagging. As I watch them skip and skitter around and teleport all over the place. Some even have the audacity to proclaim that it is me who is lagging and not them bogging down the server. Not that nobody ever lags, but it a joke to be in these games.

It would almost seem that it is just me being effected by the bogging server since so many of them deny any lag whatsoever. Except for one thing. The part where I have been a huge, gigantic complainer about lag since the beginning of this game. I know when I see lag and when a server is bogging. I used to argue with ~z~ about the cause of lag and and what ping means, but we never did quite figure it all out.

Being on the east coast, I understand that I get a little laggy on the Rx server but the other players for the most part seem fine. But on the shockwave indie servers it feels like CTF was before the new server. The lag gets absolutely ridiculous in the daytime. Many are from Europe and even further away, and others have dial-up I'm sure. But they wont admit to it. Especially when it is benefitting them.

BTW I know it's not me who is lagging for 2 reasons.
1. I know what the game should feel like normally and I know when I see laggy players and a bogging server, seeing as how I have been bitching about it for 2 years. It's my friggen MO. MAX the winer about lag. I know I'm not the only one too.

2. I have a T1 connection (cable @ home), with a Apple 1.5 GHz Power PC G4,128MB Radeon 9700, 1 gig ram.
This is my connection to Los Angeles, CA right now. From dsl reports
Actually is near 5 on a good day.

LAG = Skill?
Skill = LAG?

Just admit it, that's all I ask.

GOL
MAX

Last edited: Monday, June 20, 2005 at 2:19:20 PM

Ya, you guys are right. Pretty much everyone who lags is a terrorist, homophobe, or member of the kkk.

They are obviously trying to sabotage your gaming experience, I feel your pain, once my little brother was eaten by a gorilla. It's basically the same thing.

Especially banana, the fact that he's a good friend of mine in real life and the fact that the cable company refuses to service his private road means nothing. It's his fault. I've seen him spend hours installing switches and plugs just to cause you all lag so he can laugh and eat his damned polish sausages. He's out to get you, he'll eat all your children and pregnant wives, I've seen him do it.

Banana's a very good player goddamnit. I've played with him practically every night for half a year. He rarely seriously lags, yet when he does Max and his fellow whiners run whimpering from the server. I've had enough of it. The thing is, none of the laggarts can gain respect because everytime they score some idiot blames it on lag. And yes sometimes it can be cheap, but barely once a week do I see lag decide a game, rarely even a goal. There are people who suck who lag up games, and with them I agree with you, but to single out individual players who are actually quite good and attempt to remove every shred of respect they've struggled to earn, that's just low.

Last edited: Saturday, June 25, 2005 at 1:43:29 PM

@walrus
That was a low blow, Wally. I don't need to explain myself (again!) but for those few of you who care, I leave games early just as many times when my team is winning as I do when we're losing! Ask around... Happened last night too. We were winning and I had to go help a pregnant wife...I even left the tank in the game hoping to come right back but got kicked out for not moving (which is understandable).
I leave because it's not fair to your teammates to leave an idyle tank!!! I also have a 2 year old and 6 year... So I rarely have time!

Last edited: Saturday, June 25, 2005 at 12:24:58 PM

Ok all my weak video card did was hurt my eyes and make me suck more than I normally do. I don't think it affected the server at all.

Yes, lets not get into attacking people about lag. We all know that when one (anyone) player joins the server it affects the server to some degree. It seems that higher pingers affect it more. Till the makers of the game or the server hoster adds a ping checker of some sort it is something that we have to deal with. Again, nothing personal just like lag(less) free games.

My above post was a combination of sleep deprivation, stress and a bad mood. Not quite PMS but it was getting there. I stand by the general idea of what I said but I came out a bit more savagely than I meant to. My apologies.

No apologies needed Walley. I agree with you to some extent. I've no real problem with people that simply lag. When tanks vanish that's when I get a little annoyed. There is a difference. I know the Banana Man lags but I've never seen him have the vanishing act. Plus, like you said, he's a good dude.

Whinesano, Walley is anything but a jerk. He's always been a pleasure to play with and he's funny to boot. His maturity level is above most adults in this game and eons above yours. Reply with a rant if you'd like, but the truth is unavoidable.

I'd love to see a ping checker, but at what point would the cut off be? I'm quite sure if 150 was the cut off I'd never make it into RX's server.

Then again, after what RX said about the convention I still believe our lag is mainly due to defects in the game itself. Might this be something Bravetree is aware of and will improve upon? For instance, do we really need the extra graphics like mountains in the far off fog?

@ROGUE
I always thought it should be about 200. I guess it ultimatley depends on the server though and how many people, average ping and......I think the more people you have the lower ping you should accept (NUTS!, Captain of the obviouse!)

Yeah the more I think about the "lag prob" the less I think anything can really be done about it. I think it is more in the game than anything. Plus, I would rather shoot my laggy friends any day of the week then not play with them.

It is mostly the game. I play lots of other online games like:

Warcraft 3
Halo
Black and White
Aliens Vs Predator 2
*And many more...

And even if someone has a ping of around 400, There is hardly any lag because the games have alot of funding and theres alot more updates to fix lag issues and they have a bigger team to fix the lag issues.

BraveTree is just a small company and doesnt have much time to sort out lag problems, But soon enough they will get bigger, the TT comunity will get bigger so they will have to sort out the lag issues otherwise people will stop playing.

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. There are just too many points (aka lag opportunities) betwixt a players machine and the game server to blame it solely on the player's bandwidth.

And I also agree with Walrus (although his delivery of the message could have been better)....Banana is worthy of the rep of a great scrummer. Always a GG.

@Wally
Thanks for the classy email apologizing for the post. You've proven to be a classy, mature person,

Remainder edited by Moderator -Rx

Last edited: Sunday, June 26, 2005 at 12:43:00 AM

^ LOL.

You're funny and right on the money about me. Grrrr.

/rant

Edited by Moderator -Rx

/rant over

Last edited: Sunday, June 26, 2005 at 12:40:04 AM

I am retiring from PTT (again). SO go ahead an rip me to shreds Rogue.
I don't need this crap.

So long sukka...

(ducking for cover)

Pai, take deep breaths. Delete the posts. Be a bigger man.

Last edited: Saturday, June 25, 2005 at 12:53:30 PM

^^ Bye! Again...

OK Pai

You said " I also enjoy our silly cartoon tank game except when for the one malcontent who is determined to insult me every chance he gets "

Shall I go further? Naw. See what I mean? Peace.

Geez can anyone really remember a game after the next one starts.

EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE LAG CAN SEND THE LAGGER A REALLY EXPENSIVE COMPUTER AND 1 MONTH PREPAID SERVICE OF T3 RIGHT NOW.

Sheesh, some serious post editing needed above from more than one person....

Now to the question:

For dRacer, Clark has been spending a lot of time looking at multiplayer network physics issues. He makes mention of it in his latest blog post: http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/6452/8063

Also given my namesake, you can be assured that lag is an issue I'm aware of. And I certainly would like to see 56k player be able to join games without bringing everyone else's connection down. Of course, I'm no programmer, so all I can do is bug Clark about it.. But rest assured that I will. :)

Another factor that hasn't been mentioned is MODs. The original maps were all reduced in size from the original torque map size. The MOD terrains, since they are produced using the torque demo, are much larger. On low end machines that's a lot of extra polygons. Then additionally since there is more play area, there are more rocks and tress, this adds more objects which also bogs down machines. (As an extreme example Dan MacDonald found that he couldn't run a Survivor server on the same machine as CTF, because whenever Paco's Mystery Maze with bajillions of rocks would load, it would lag out the CTF machine.)

The issue of a slightly slow video card is also interesting, because the player will see what he usually sees (say 15 fps), so have no notion that he is lagging. But other players in the game will see him stuttering across the map.

A certain amount of lag is inevitable, there is just no way you can adjust for all the network and performance problems that can arise with so many different machines in all parts of the world. But ideally, one person's lag shouldn't be messing up everyone else's game.

^ Exactly what I said in my previous post, that bigger companys have alot more funding to fix these issues

Why even bother posting lagman? It's all been said....

:)

Last edited: Saturday, June 25, 2005 at 2:57:45 PM

I didn't think the Mod stuff has been said.... Heh.

ROFL.

Lag? Lol seems everytime Laggy appears.. We win!

It helps when I join the other team eh?

Lol We're on the same team.

I meant PTT :)

56k, I can fix it. My dad's a tv repairman, he's got an awesome set of tools.

In all seriousness, if Clark can fix the Torque lag issue get him on this mind boggling question next.

Why do men have nipples?

Well we would look kinda weird without nipple's XD

Nipples are key, I couldn't live without mine.

Nipples... We are all androgynous in the beginning.

@ Wally - Why are you bringing up Banana? Is he a lagging noob who plays in the indie daytime and brags about how great he is? I think not.

@ Pai, Rouge, and the other angry tankers -.... Oh never-mind, why bother.

@ 56k - Thank you for your input, the more information about lag, hopefully the less frustrating it will be. That image hurt my ribs when I was on the floor laughing.
... And your right nobody else has brought up the object and terrain size factor. I am quite certain that some of you guys get clobbered graphicaly by Rx's ghost in the spooky Mod as well as those volcano rocks in the frantic maps.

MAX

Whatever you do, don't follow the second "external link."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation

Hmm Flea, you don't have an infant do you?

Last edited: Saturday, June 25, 2005 at 9:22:33 PM

As my role of Moderator, I have to take the time to make this comment:

The Paisano - Rogue feud is old news. We do not want to see any further comments from anyone on this subject. Some posts have beed edited. Let's keep it civil and learn to live with each other despite our imperfections. Thanks,

-Rx

^Listen to the leprechaun...he speaks with great wisdom.

In defense of banana, I think bananas are good. With ice cream especially. Whipped cream and nuts and chocolate, warm and thick, that flows around the pineapple bits and...

I gotta leave...

For all those amazingly talented BMers who seem to be able to kill a fresh tank faster then the defender can even get one shot off.
Has it ever occurred to you that this is sort of weird. I mean, don't you think it is strange that a fresh tank who is head to head with your smoking tank just cant seem to hit you or fire as fast as you, and dies oh so easily? Have you always just figured that you were a superior player because many players never seem to be able to kill you.

You are wrong!

This mysterious advantage is due to the "delay" caused by lag. It is not important who's lag it is or whatever.
The point is this: The lack of delay or the difference in delay is not an accurate assessment of BMing skill.
So to say things like "your aim sucks" or "you suck at BM" is ridiculous.
It would be reasonable for you to say "my game performance is benefitting from this lag therefore I have an advantage over you"
That would be truth, but to even entertain the notion that your mysterious ability to kill on will is a difference in skill is laughable.
So the next time you are killing everyone in sight and find that you have to get ammo, don't let it go to your head.

:

This thread is not so much about the lag in itself, clearly very little can be done about it for now.
This thread is about the players who need to be honest about what is "lag" and what is "skill"

What eats me up are the big heads and conceited player who refuse to believe that the coincidence between their apparent ability and the bizarre behavior of there tank is unrelated.

My favorite is being called a crybaby because I don't like to play in unbelievably laggy games.
Then there are those who say I only complain about "lag" because I am loosing.

So just for the record:
I complain about the lag because it is not fun to play in laggy games.
The game is no longer about skill or teamwork, it's about delay or teleporting.

MAX

Last edited: Monday, June 27, 2005 at 9:57:18 AM

In short, no I don't think it's weird. Some people just aren't used to getting drilled by entire clip without a miss. I've never seen somebody get killed with a fresh tank without being able to fire a shot. That's an obvious exaggeration, but I'm in the corner that some are simply killers.

Believe it or not Max, some folks are incredibly accurate. I remember Master TMO being accused of cheating in PSL, but in a BM game he was no better than dozens of people. I think he'd tell you the same thing. I've got an idea to test your theory, start a thread and challenge some of the better BM players to a match on your own server. I'll make you a bet that you lose more than win. Take a look back at the convention thread and see the remarks about how Bolo was a killer on any machine. In fact, there's about two dozen guys I'd put in a similar category. Just ask Jangles about how playing BM has improved his play. He's said it many times.

Yes. They are.

I wouldn't call you a cry baby for that, but I would when you MF people during games. I recenlty had to ask a kid to ignore you and remind him that it's just a game as you lambasted him. Not flaming, just hoping that you refrain from doing that.

In some cases this is incredibly accurate and not ridiculous. Even if they lag they still gotta hit yah. Go one on one with my boys Nutso, Prof, X, Nappy, Ho, Supra, or two dozen other players. They'll give you prime examples of getting hit with every shot. Those people make me bitter all the time. Heh.

I can't disagree with this more. I'm Joe Average at scrum but we've managed to squeak by two incredibly skilled teams in the 3 on 3 challenge even with me on the team. Enough can't be said about being in the right position during a game of scrum regardless of BM skill by any and all players.

You offered your opinions and I'm offering mine. I think you should host a server though and run the gauntlet of BMers to see for yourself. Be sure to include those that play scrum solely and are great shots. No offense Max, you're a good player, but no better than any other regular scrummer regardless of connection.

My half cent.

Last edited: Monday, June 27, 2005 at 11:05:04 AM

A lot of great points in this thread.

I have played alot in my own server as well as in other people's. I can tell you first hand that playing in one's own server can have its advantages - just not all the time. I can't say I've been able to track a degradation in performance to a particular player joining. Rather it seems to vary day by day. It is not just one's own ping or one's own processor power (I have a dual 18.GHz G5 and 3MB Comcast cable). What I do occasionally experience on my own server is shot delay. The kind where it takes an extra few moments for the bullets to begin to start coming out. Once they do some out, they still come out relatively fast. I do not, of course, experience teleporting lag on my own server, and passing the scrum to non-laggards is predictable and smooth.

When I play on distant servers, there can be additional factors that make it hard to tell wtf is the source of the problem. Like most people the thing I sometimes see is that my shot trajectory trails the intended target by a significant degree. Passing the scrum can also be tougher to hit the sweet-transfer spot. Those make it tough but not difficult to still compete. The thing that can really kill it for me is when a full clip does not come out rapidly and is sporadic and spastic (perhaps as a result of packet loss?). Makes it really hard if not impossible to win any one on one battle.

That said I think the most wise thing I've read in a long time was:

Despite problems with lag, you can still win in TS if you have good teamwork and positioning. If you are alive at the right time and the right place you can make key plays regardless of how fast you are dying.

I also would hazard to guess that many people have only played TT on one set-up and may not realize that they are lagging and that it could be better. If you are having lag problems, please do whatever is in your power to improve your connection and computer. Spend much $$$ to get it fixed!!! %)

Similarly, I would also guess that many people who have reached a certain level of play may not even be aware that it is possible to be an even better player at a higher level than they can conceive of. That includes taking all lag factors into account, compensating and still staying ahead of the game. I have seen it done - I know it is possible!

-Rx

Last edited: Monday, June 27, 2005 at 3:57:10 PM

Good points!!!

Just to bash lep :)

During the tt convention I had a chance to battle lep eye to eye...fun stuff...however we were on even ground

Take a lep out of the lag lair and he is just a kitten :)

(jab jab)

On the other hand nuts handed me my ass with his sweet linux setup...

And x died much better without the server advantage

B

@ ROGUE -
I think you missed my point.
I'm talking about delay, what are you talking about?
Are you saying delay does not exist?

MAX

Wow..... I came upon this post late.....

Ok. Basically Wally has already explained my problem but ill explain it again. I have tried to get a good connection but the cable company refuses to wire my private road. MAX I am not out to get you and lag up all of the servers. I play TT because I want to play, not ruin your game. Many times I have avoided games of indie or TS because you or some other people would leave because of my lag. I don't want to screw up the games, but no matter what I say to you, you don't listen. In many cases, if people have asked me to leave because of my lag I have left.

Thats my explaination.... Take it or leave it.

Amen Rogue.

Max, you're fighting a losing battle. Your constant claims of lag, or "delay" whenever you lose is just child like. In our PSL game tonight you complained of your "delay" all through the first game when you were losing, but never once mentioned it in the second game when you were winning. Yet we were on the same server. Eh.

Last edited: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 at 9:33:54 PM

@ Wally - So are you saying delay does not exist and that lag does not effect the game? I feel it is in poor taste to be demeaning this thread about a real issue in this game.
Maybe on that specific occasion the guy lagging up the server left, or maybe there were fewer players in the later games, or maybe there were fewer objects on the maps, or maybe somebody's connection improved, or maybe somebody turned off background applications. Or maybe my connection improved. We don't really know.
It is not even clear to me what your point even is. Have you been following the thread.

Why are you making this about winning. I don't care about winning! Have you read anything I am saying ? Besides I never "complain about lag all through a game". I may mention it on occasions of ridiculous proportions like watching the skittering player teleport into the goal or when I click my mouse 8 times and only a few wild shots come out. So, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Obviously I will comment more when I am unable to perform at my best, or even perform at all for that matter.
Would I complain about not having money when, I don't have it? Yes
Would I complain about not having money when, I do have it? Not really

So why does it piss you people off so much because I am frustrated with having delay and started a thread about it. All I am trying to do is inform players that other factors exist and that there apparent skill might be more about computers and connections.

And for gods sake who brought Banana into this thread like this? I didn't! I have no idea what you are talking about Wally!

@JJ - I have absolutely no idea why you attacked me tonight but I have not said squat to Banana nor would I ever be mean to him!!

I am so confused WTH are you people talking about...

@ The Walrus
@ JJ
@ ROGUE
@ Banana
@ everybody
Has it occurred you any of you who are clearly bringing things up that are completely out of my character, that I have an impostor for MAX©® and Combat Rock who is as obnoxious as chong and very well may be chong.

The next time I am supposedly complaining about lag like a wining little "child" its not me.
I hope that helps.

FFS
MAX
(So do you people really think that delay is just an excuse for no skills and lag is a figment of the imagination to help rationalize getting owned?)

Last edited: Saturday, July 02, 2005 at 12:04:11 AM

^ Maxie doesn't snivel. (But good god he has reason to. I can't believe how he is inundated with questions in a game. "Max, how do I do this. Max how do I do that. Shut up and let him play! Post your questions. Just my 2 cents worth.)

It's not just shooting that lag messes with either. When it gets bad you cannot steal the scrum but it can be taken from you effortlessly. I hate that. I'm not really sure why it's part of the lag equation either. I mean lagging shots and jumpy players you can sort of compensate for. A "loose" scrum is another thing.

Last edited: Saturday, July 02, 2005 at 6:56:05 PM