This post is based on an recent newspaper article which generated a lively discussion with some friends of mine. As the PTT community is always willing to take on the big subjects, I wanted to post to this here for debate.

This is not to say its a disease, as scientific research has proven its linked to genetics, and gene selection is a very real possibility in the near future. Would you select your child's sexual orientation?

Thanks, JB! XD We need a take charge kinda guy around here!

@TG & OM - I did happen to grow up in the country and I currently live in a small town, but I have gotten out. I went to college and served in the USAF for 5 years. As JB can attest, the military likes to move you around alot, so I've lived in the "big city". But I don't see how that makes any real difference. There are people in NYC and San Fran that share my views just as there are those who share yours. I don't think city folk are smarter (fairer, balanceder) just because they live in the city. Some people might think I'm smarter for not living there.

Also, I can only base my opinion on what I've read and experienced. Personally I fit the nuturing background my readings have identified as being factors that encourage the homosexual lifestyle. Absent father and domineering mother...blah, blah, blah...so that's why I would give creedence to those positions and analyses. I've tried to share those findings, but TG's already discounted them. My gay friends are the "stereotype" so that's my experience.

@TG - I'm sure we're in the same boat in a sense. You want me to change my opinion on homosexuality and I want you to change your's concerning Christianity. You've presented plenty of Christian stereotypes and Biblical misconceptions throughout the forums here, but I'd say you're about as likely to pick up a copy of Focus on the Family as I am to read Out .

That's fine, but I wish they'd avoid the personal attacks (insulting intelligence, claiming stereotypes, etc). It's fine if you disagree with me my views, but I start getting defensive if someone accuses me of not knowing what I'm talking about, or saying that I've been warped in the past. Soon it becomes a competition on who can make the most witty comeback. I'm sure most others here feel the same way. For example, I disagree with Rabban on some things, but I know he is not irrational, unschooled or misled. We just disagree a little.

- BombJames Bomb

@Van:

"Why bother getting married at all? You should never marry jsut based on love, becasue it will never work out. From talking to many happy couples, that have been married for over 25 years, what keeps them together is a deep NEED for eachother to create a whole and compelte person. "I need her, she needs me" and "I need him, and he needs me" are common phrases. They compliment eachother, both physically, and emotionally."

I agree with TG: how does this make any sense? "Why bother getting married at all just based on love?" you say. Why is it impossible for homosexuals to need, compliment and complete each other? You seem to take it as fact that it is a complete impossibility for two men or two women to have a deep need for one another. I just don't understand.

Secondly: "K8 as a mother with kids (Boys I seem to recall), do you honestly belive think they are going to develope as normal healthy children and eventualy be able to have happy, and succesful hetero family?"

Why can't they be normal healthy children? Why can't they have successful hetero families of their own? Why is it even necessary for them to have hetero families? Again, you seem to take it as fact that children raised by homosexuals are doomed. Trust me, man, you are sorely mistaken.

Finally, I take issue with your very opening statement: "I think all of us have made it clear, from most peoples religious veiwpoint that homosexualitiy is wrong/evil/bad/harmful." WTF!!!??? No we haven't! At least half of us here have been making it EXTREMELY clear that homosexuality (or at least in our viewpoint) is neither bad, wrong, harmful or evil AT ALL! How can you make such statements if you've actually read and thought about everyone's statements here? If you still think homosexuality is "wrong/evil/bad/harmful," PLEASE go back through and read (and actually THINK about) previous statments posted here. I think you'll realize that that assumption is decidedly FOGGY, not clear. Really, and I'm gonna make a judgement here and I realize it in advance: HOW CAN SOMEONE BE SO OBTUSE?

There is the real problem, you don't even try to explain yourself to others. You think the situation is hopeless and calm up. I am perfectly willing to have holes blown in my theories and opinions. But the fact you are just ignoring them and calling me ignorant does not help the discussion any. I told you before, don't defend yourself by using my ignorance against me. It is such a cheap way out of a discussion and does not increase the understanding of the people in the discusion to better understand the other.

From my point of veiw I can love a person and still keep my distance. I know there is a line that I should not cross for both of us.

Btw, I see no one has come up wih any solid proof that genetics causes homosexuality, or maybe people jsut ignored my first post and link

Van, Did you REALLY say that I dont even try to explain myself to others????!!!!!! I have to laugh really hard at that statement.

If you read the incredibly verbose postings that I have made in this thread and many others regarding this topic, I don't see how you can even come close to saying that I have not tried to clearly state my point of view. I am not using your ignorance against you, I am simply tired of trying to get you to understand anything outside of your ignorance.... I have spent far too much time spent trying to get you to comprehend my perspective. Like Asshat said above, reread some of this thread and THINK about what you are reading.

I have no idea how you could possibly think I am clamming up with my perspective.

Oh, James, You are getting my vote for president.

Last edited: Friday, May 07, 2004 at 3:33:00 PM

Van - good point, but if you make provocative statements from a position of ignorance, this treatment is probably the best you can expect.

I read the scientific press, and a genetic basis for homosexuality has been both proved and disproved in recent years. In other words gnobody gnows - it's one of those topics that'll get a three-page writeup in the papers whatever the flimsy evidence. The last I read was that having a lot of older brothers was a sure indicator. So it could be genetic or chemical or social or just conceivably personal choice. But do you remember choosing to be heterosexual? I don't.

I can't believe I just spent an hour reading this thread

Yo JB,

I've never been in the military and I never would want to be. Nothing but rednecks and under-educated dropouts. Statistics show that our military is largely a bunch of losers who cant think for themselves in the real world so they need their commanders to think for them. Seems like a high percentage of soldiers are rapists as well (judging by the statistics of female soldiers raped every day). And just look at the photo's of tortured men from iraq with the american soldiers giving a thumbs up. Disgraceful. I'm sure there are some good people in the military, but mostly (as important as our military is) I am glad the bottomfeeders have a place to go. (JB, read to the bottom before you get pissed off)

@all: I can see exactly what TG and others are saying here. I would be defensive if I were gay from what I have read here. There is a lack of understanding that comes out in the stance against gay relationships in this thread. Funny to hear Vanbuskirk and Rabban argue that they understand. Kind of like a hearing a backwoods white man trying to say something nice about blacks "I have nothing against Ni$$ers at all".

@TG: You sure do have the gift of gab. I think your points are well written here, but you should try to not get so uppity when people voice an opinion not your own. Even if their opinion is on the closed minded and over-simplified side of the equation.

@JB again.

I didn't mean a single word of what I wrote about the military. Not a single word. I was responding to your comment---

I was wondering if my anti-military paragraph could have spurred you on to telling me I was ignorant with my opinion. Because I don't see much difference between the ignorance of my anti-military statement and the ignorance I see in this thread regarding gays. I think TG has the right to be pissed.

Just my opinion dudes and dudettes..

YDR

Last edited: Friday, May 07, 2004 at 4:13:18 PM

OK, I need to post again.

First off, to Van, Rabban and to some degree JB- I'll admit outright that my post before was inflammatory in some regards. I suppose I intended it to be in certain respects. I offered two apologies for my remarks, both in the beginning and end of my statements because I knew how it would be perceived. What I am attempting to do is point out how some remarks made on this subject are coming from perspectives that are in a position where it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to understand homosexual behaviour. I admit to not being in a position to fully understand it myself, any more than I can pass judgment on an African American male living in a poor neighborhood, or an Iraqi citizen living in a war torn city, or many other situations. What I'm saying is I would like people to be a little more open minded and experienced before formulating such staunch opinions on a decidedly difficult topic. Both Van and, to some degree Rabban, admitted to not having much experience in witnessing successful gay relationships. For the record, I DO not believe that either of you are some hicks living in the hills, but my original statement of living in large metropolises affecting your point of view still stands. It simply does, for what it's worth. Yes Rabban you're right that many people in big cities like NYC have similar opinions to yours. It's a sad but simple fact that prejudices exist all around us, including racism and homophobia. Living in NY or San Francisco or anywhere else doesn't necessarily mean someone will grow up to not be prejudice.

For what it's worth, I think all the homosexual community as a whole wants is simply to be accepted as contributing members of society. Not outcast as some type of aberrations or freaks of nature, or scorned and held in contempt simply because they live an alternative lifestyle. Thankfully, there have been big strides in recent decades for them to be more accepted, but it's still a LONG way off in their eyes, and they are right to a degree,

Now, to answer Van's challenge about proving genetics is linked to homosexuality, I can't offer any proof of that, since science has not located any definitive proof. But I CAN offer the following. It has been shown that (much to the chagrin of biologists) that homosexual behaviour does NOT just exist within the human race. It has been shown and well documented to exist throughout nearly the entire animal kingdom. Now, I don't know about you, but I sincerely question whether Bonobo's or birds, cats, dogs, bears and many other species are simply making a "choice" to have homosexual relations.

If you want further confirmation, here is a synopsis of a book by Bruce Bagemihl, titled Biological Exuberance : Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity :

Again, the book doesn't prove that homosexuality is genetic, but I imagine this book, showing how widespread it is in the animal kingdom, makes a pretty strong argument that it is more than simply social influence. Don't you?

<sigh>

I guess I need to start accepting the notion that people are going to call me names when I disagree with their point of view.

Once in college I had a professor tell me that cattle "lesb". I had an issue with that since my family was in the cattle business so I had the opportunity to observe lots of cattle. Basically one cow mounts another cow just like a bull would. The bottom cow would sometimes stay put, sometimes she'd move. For this to really be a sexual act, there's a lot more going on than I can see. What is the "top" thinking? What is the "bottom" thinking? Are they thinking at all? My theory was that the females mount females to get them used to the process since males are so much heavier. Kinda like training for the real thing.

I think cows are stupid. They're animals that eat and crap and make little calves. When they get big enough, we eat them. Maybe they are "lesbing" or maybe they're doing stupid animal tricks. There's no way to know for sure and I'd say the observer brings a predispostion to this observation as well.

But whether they be gay or straight, we still eat them, so I guess there's equality. %)

I have a wake up call for all the 'phobes that might scare the bejesus out of 'em, based on this animal discussion: All people are bisexual. More simply put: Humans are sexual. Without social constructs and judgements we'd all be boning down with guys and girls, and probably having a lot of bisexual orgies too. It just feels good, and it really doesn't matter if it's a guy's hand or a girl's going down your pants, as long as that hand knows what it's doing. That's why we see animals displaying homosexual behavior. They're just in the position of: whoever's around when you're horny, go for it. All we (all mammals) really want to do is get off. Humans in modern societies are forced to make a choice of being gay, straight or bi. Or they fall in love with someone and that's the way they go, at least for a while. But really, folks, we're all sexual creatures, capable of enjoying it either way.

AH, you've hit on something here that I've thought about before. I guess that's what you get from being a bit antisocial and thinking outside the social norms of society.

So yeah, who cares who's busy down there just as long I'm feeling fine? I guess we could all live like that, but I don't think it's going to be the best idea. If sex was as simple as it's depicted in the movies I suppose it would be easy cheesy, but then I don't think sex is that simple. I think there's more going on than just making it like rabbits that touches the heart and soul of those involved. Whoever I've been involved with for just pleasure, I've used them and diminished them as a person. They often end up looking at me with those puppy eyes and "please call" look as I hit the road. I don't think that's the way it's meant to be and since I feel God created us and think we all deserve more than a one night stand.

1. Throughout history and within nearly every culture, roughly the same percentage of the population is gay.

2. If your twin brother or sister is gay, you are, statistically, more likely to be gay.

It's not a sin. It's not a choice. It's simply different than that which is practiced by the majority.

We should all try to be more accepting of differences.

Last edited: Friday, May 07, 2004 at 7:37:09 PM

Oh and by the way...

I absolutely love lesbians. Was that the question?

@Rabban: I agree sex is WAY more complicated for humans than for animals, and WAY too complicated to just fool around with whoever you feel like. We all know how destructive that can be. I was just saying we all may have urges one way or the other and are capable of going either way, as evidenced by the animal behavior you and OM were discussing. I definitely don't think following every sexual urge is a good idea, though. That leads to horrible things like rapists and Michael Jackson.

)º(

Heh, not to sound like a fanboy of TG, but didn't she just tell us that we are concentrating too much on the "sex" attribute of this discussion? Damn, I guess it really IS what us guys think about all the time! (Here Here, 44!) XD

@YDR: I saw the sarcasm by the second sentence! However, I used to get a lot of sour comments about being in the service here in the Pacifist state. It's been strange since 9-11, now we are suddenly heros. I wonder how long that will last?

@TG: President? Hell no. Don't really want Doonesbury writing about me. :P

Well, you guys have fun with this thread. I'm going to check out this "Universe" thing now.

-BombJames Bomb

Rabban....example with the cows....many animals hump each other, same sex or not to show dominance...ever see two same sex dogs mount and make the "hump" motions? Doesnt mean they are gay....

B

But the scary thing is they're not always just making the motions. With canine homosexuality there can be definite inser... Never mind. Sorry, thought this thread could use a little lighthearted nastiness XD

)º(

@Bolo - Ahh, now there's something I can agree with, it's a dominace thing. Now stop humping me in TBM. I get it. XD

@All - There is one segment of the gay population I remembered today. That group who are in the lifestyle for whatever reason, who hear the Gospel being presented and agree that their lifestyle is a sin. They seek to repent of their choice and change their behavior. I've heard of a 80% success rate for homosexuals who enter a "rehab" program to leave the lifestyle, but I'm not sure about that number. Also, they experience varying degrees of success from total closure to abstinence though struggling with the desire. From what I've read and heard, they're happier either way.

I mention that to say that there are even homosexuals who agree that it's a sin and seek a way out.

@rabby,

The "report" that you refer to with a "success rate" is absolutely laughable. Positively, absolutely laughable. Success of what? Being "cured"? OMG, yet another feather in the cap of ignorance.

Your last post is disturbing. NOT because you bring facts for us to consider, but because you bring slanted half-truths that totally lack scientific merit and spew this to us with the intent of validating your perspective. FYI: "Me thinks you protest too much"

Rabby, if you are in conflict with yourself because of your past, or possibly trying to come to keep a lid on "sinful" desires you have in the present, please keep that in perspective and quit preaching here. Your stance on homosexuality is insulting and your motivations are in question. You are not sharing your opinions on this topic, you are working really hard to convince us that homosexuality is wrong, and you are trying to do so from many different angles. This is no longer a debate about choices, this argument feels more like you are trying to make peace with your past (or bury feelings you have in your present).

I am the first to admit that I have become extremely defensive and vocal about this topic. But at least I have a reason.

What is your reason?

I am sorry if I am getting mean here. I don't want to discuss this anymore with you rabby. It feels all wrong and it is too frustrating. This is not a debate for you anymore, this is your crusade and as I said, I question your motives.

The PROBLEM with this argument is that we are not fighting about the same topic. I am not trying to convince anyone that they should become gay where you ARE trying to convince yourself/us that it is NOT ok to be gay. We aren't even fighting the same fight. I am just saying that you need to be more aware and open minded and you are just saying homosexuality is a sin.

I am done with this topic. My only regret is that I didn't walk away from it sooner. I got passionately involved and thought I could "enlighten" some of you.... How silly am I?

Last edited: Sunday, May 09, 2004 at 2:08:20 AM

Dont worry TG...the thought of lesbians always enlightens me :)

B

HOMO SEXUALS ARE SICK.

WHY WOULD A GUY... INTO ANOTHER GUYS...?

I THINK THEY GET OFF ON IT SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE SICK IN THE HEAD.

ITS LIKE ANY OTHER MENTAL ILLNESS THAT CAUSES PEOPLE TO DO SICK THINGS.

LIKE FLY 767S INTO SKYSCRAPERS ! :)

BUT THEN AGAIN THEY DID THAT TO GET THEIR 70 VIRGINS IN HEAVEN.

HELL, I MIGHT HAVE DONE THE SAME IF I WERE A SAND...

I don't think I've ever swayed from the idea that I think homosexuality is a sin, so you're right in that. I have tried to present that idea in a variety of ways since many here can't just accept, "because God says so."

Perhaps I am working hard to convince people that homosexuality is a sin. The reason I would want someone, anyone to recognize that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle choice would be so that they could repent and restore their relationship with God. I don't gain anything from it otherwise.

The simple truth is there are gays who repent and turn from the homosexual lifestyle and enter into hetersexual relationships that are very fulfilling. If that bothers you then that's you issue, not mine.

I've also noticed that you can't seem to accept me or my ideas for just what they are, but instead you seem to want in inject some hidden agenda or motive that fits into your preconception of what I must think or feel as a homophobe or some Bible-thumper. You also tend to exaggerate and blow my reponses out of context. Again, I suppose you need to do that to make yourself feel comfortable.

I did look on the web and found Exodus International , a Christian ministry focused on homosexual issues. They cite a lower success rate of 30%-50% of change than my 80%, but I did say it was a nuber off the top of my head. In any case, they offer some studies to support their numbers.

As for me personally, I'm a heterosexual. I've experimented with the homosexual lifestyle, but I've heard that's common. Using my honesty and vulnerability as a opportunity to attack me or misrepresent me is shameful. I think you know better.

And if you think your lifestyle choice doesn't effect or influence those around you, you're dreaming. If it's OK for you to be a lesbian, then it's OK for others to be gay or bisexual.

The simple fact is I'm not buying into the homosexual propaganda machine that has free reign in today's media and culture and I'm trying to offer a counter view in the hopes that "open mindedness" and "free speech" are words that have real meaning.

Some other helpful sites

Desert Streams

Pure Life Ministries

Last edited: Monday, May 10, 2004 at 12:52:06 PM

Hiya Rabby.....

(my defenses are down)

I'm sorry for being offensive to you. Highly charged topic. I'm sure you can relate because you felt similarly in the threads that were attacking your religion and your religious beliefs.

I do have to say that the gay conversion "Success" results posted by a Christian Ministry is just silly. Like the wine industry giving slanted information about the healthy aspects of drinking wine every day, or Kentucky Fried Chicken saying that they are a health food (based on Atkins criteria). You simply cannot have unadulterated test results from investigations done by the group that benefits from the results. Of course they can say that 30-50% of Gays who have repented are happier, this same % would probably be true for any "godless" group in society that accepts god, there will be a percentage that are now happier. The remaining 50-70% of those that tried to repent failed because they were trying to deny who they are..... This doesn't work, just ask any of the incredibly high percentage of sicko gay pedophile priests. Even becoming a priest is not enough to stop someone from what they are inside, even if they are degenerate pedophiles.

I would be interested to see how many of those 30-50% of "Cured" gays stay cured 1,2,3,5, 10 years later.

The whole notion of being "cured" is very disturbing because it means that homosexuality is a disease or infection that can be "cleaned" or "killed". Yikes...

As for those case studies, I am sure there have been tons of people who have been "successful" in suppressing their homosexual instincts/desires. That does not mean they have been cured or anything to that affect! It merely means they've been able to deny themselves from the lifestyle that they truly were meant to live. The term that comes to mind is "closet homosexual". These poor souls live a lie merely because of their extreme fear of what society or their circle of friends and family would think should they ever obey their inner desires/instincts to be with someone from the same sex.

Look...I am a 100% Italian male who grew up in the New Jersey/New York area, so I was brainwashed into disliking homosexuals and my religious background preaches how evil it all is, but I've been blessed with an open mind that allowed me to become close friends with Gay people and I'm thankful I did! They have taught me a great deal of lessons that I wish more people would learn. They are human beings just like heterosexuals (sometimes more human!)! Their love and friendships are just as real and valid as any!

There's a famous saying in the military, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"... Well, I say "Don't think, Don't Speak!"

Didn't the Nazis already try to prevent it? Did it work well? I don't remember my history quite well...

OMG I still can't believe Da Cleaner got into the forums. Nice views, man - very enlightened. I can tell your IQ is DEFINITELY in the triple didgets. I can't believe the connection speed in your asylum is good enough for you to play TT.

Well, what can I say? If all my sources are automatically considered jaded or biased, then it seems I can't make an argument for anything. Why is it that a faith based resource is met with skepticism, but a secular resource isn't? Don't secular researchers have agendas as well? Do we just accept everything NOW and PETA publish? Do we just outright reject it since they're considered extreme? I'm continually asked to be open-minded, but I'm not seeing a lot of examples to follow.

I don't think I ever said they were "cured". When I became a Christian I easily dropped some sins years ago while I still struggle with others on a daily basis. I'd say the same is true for anyone who enters any program, faith based or not. I was just trying to point out that there were homosexuals who agreed that their lifestyle was sinful and wanted to change.

I think if someone brings up the gay, pedophile priests again I'm going to puke. Are they representative of Christians? The Church? Hopefully nobody is buying into that accusation. Besides, just like in TT, you have your fringe players and the dedicated ones. Would we condemn TT because of the jerks that play? And if you reach way back, some of you might remember the parable about the wheat and the tares. These are two grains that look a lot alike and the Lord allows them to coexist within the Church, but one day they'll be separated out. So everyone who's in the Church isn't necessarily a faithful follower.

Anyway, there are some other sins in the Bible besides homosexuality. We're all guilty of one or another. I hope I haven't given the impression that we're to shun such people, regardless of the sin. In that case, no one could be with anyone and I'd have to find a way to avoid myself. :) The difference between sinner and saint is the relationship each has with God. The sinner refuses to submit to God and acknowledge their need for him while the saint has said, "Have mercy on me, a sinner".

Don't worry, Rabban, I don't think anybody intends to march a crusade against you! Technically speaking, every opinion (for or against) is biased to a degree anyhow. Just understand that most people here are as determined and stubborn in their views as you are. Someday down the road, maybe they'll think back to this and see some aspects of your side, as well as you seeing some aspects of theirs. In any case, I think it's time to let this thread go to rest (want it locked, Oddball?). It's been a heck of a ride.

- BombJames Bomb