This post is based on an recent newspaper article which generated a lively discussion with some friends of mine. As the PTT community is always willing to take on the big subjects, I wanted to post to this here for debate.

This is not to say its a disease, as scientific research has proven its linked to genetics, and gene selection is a very real possibility in the near future. Would you select your child's sexual orientation?

Well this is a very sensitive subject for a PTT post. But I'm going to address it. Mostly because I disagree that homosexuality is linked to genetics. That is certainly not proven.

Regardless of what most people would "pick" for their child if this were possible, as a straight man who supports gay rights, I must say that I'm a bit offended by your wording, Oddball. "This is not to say it's a disease" obviously states that you think homosexuality is a problem. And I have one question for all gay-bashers and anti-gays alike (not necessarily you, just my argument in general): Why do you care? Why are you against homosexuality or afraid of it? If it doesn't harm anyone and doesn't concern you or effect your life, why take sides against it? Just let it be and go about your business.

Fear of the unknown is the creator of all hatred.

)º(

Yikes! I don't even want to know where this thread is gonna go within the next few hours so I'll post now to get it over with.

Quite simply, even if I could prevent it in my child, I would not. End of story. The only time I would ever even consider gene selection in an unborn child is if it was to prevent some life threatening or debilitating disease. Homosexuality is neither of those to be sure.

I'm not sure if it's linked to genetics or not, but I will say that science attempting to uncover the "cause" of homosexuality is VERY frightening. It can only lead to bad things in my eyes.

OM

Funny thing is, I don't think of myself as gay, I just happened to fall in love with a person who has the same genitals as I do. The last person I fell in love with just happened to have different genitals than I do. I choose the person, not the manner in which they piss.

For all of those scientists who are looking for a "cause" of homosexuality, save yourself the trouble.... There is but only one true answer.....

It is god's will.

:-)

Katherine the Lipstick Lesbian

Well, things were quiet for awhile.

I agree that with the idea that it isn't a genetic issue. I think there are choices being made by those who participate in a homosexual lifestyle. Now I will say that I think there are environmental factors and nuturing issues that may cause someone to lean in towards a homosexual lifestyle, but it comes down to the individual choices we make.

Why do I care?

First, because I believe the Bible teaches against it and identifies it as a sin, which is something that is contrary to God's good order and command for our lives.

That being said, I don't want to just make a "religious" argument. I think homosexual relationships hurts those who are in the relationship since they're not meeting their full potential in a same sex relationship. Having to deal with someone who's our sexual opposite helps us grow in ways that our same sex friends can't. Guys have certain attitudes about things that are very different from gals. In a heterosexual relationship you've got to grow and develop an appreciation for the other prespective (or it's over).

I think a homosexual relationship also hurts those in the collateral positions of the relationships, most notably children. If you want to argue from an evolutionary POV, as far as humans go we've come thus far with a two parent, heterosexual relationship seemingly being the best for our offspring. They need the constant influence and nuture of both sexes to bring them up to be well balanced individuals (incidentally, this is what God intends as well). Unfortunately, even in a heterosexual relationship, the parents have issues that can hurt the child's development, but I still think both situations being equal, heterosexual parents are best. This is also why I think homosexual relationships are bad for society on the whole. The don't maintain the traditional familes that have gotten us to where we are today and from what I understand historically, cultures that have embraced the homosexual lifestyle haven't prospered for very long after that embrace.

There is also that segment of homosexuality that has the potential of harming my family with their seduction. While I'm aware the same holds true for heterosexuals, the homosexual lifestyle is enjoying a sort of protected status. Consider the recent scandal with the Catholic Church. For the most part we all know priests were molesting children (so the Church is evil, right?), but what wasn't mentioned so much was that the priests were mostly molesting boys. I've had to deal with a 15yo girl molesting my 5yo son and that has been difficult enough. Having to deal with it from the homosexual standpoint would have made it more difficult and may have produced an altogether different reaction and result in my son.

@AH, while I appreciate you statements, I hope you realize they're charged as well. Am I a gay-basher or anti-gay or a homophobe or a gay-hater just because I don't support the homosexual lifestyle? Should I also be categorized as a crack-basher and a murder-hater as well?

Let me take another step. <deep breath> I've experimented with homosexual relationships and encounters, so I'm not coming at this with some "holier than thou" mentality. I've been there to some degree so I can understand some of the draws of that lifestyle. That doesn't mean I think it's right or that my participation somehow negates how I feel about it. While I enjoyed certain aspects of the lifestyle, I never thought it was good for me or those around me. Just like the alcoholic may enjoy his beer buzz, he also knows it is destroying him and those he loves. I've found the most fulfillment in heterosexual relationships and I think they're the best for society on the whole.

Yes I would.

Not only form a religious viewpoint but also, its disgusting.

"Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!"

Way to go Rabby...... Now take another deep breath.

:-)

Baklava, while I admit that the thought of two men together having intercourse is enough to make me lose my appetite, there really is nothing disgusting about two people who are in love, regardless of their gender. The Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve joke has been around for a long time eh?

Are two women together a disgusting sight to you too? If so, you need new glasses 'cause there is NOTHING more enticing on the face of this earth.

If God hadn't intended same sex relationships, he wouldn't have created open minded people.

K8 :P

Last edited: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 at 8:30:36 PM

Admittedly TG

Two women arent that gross. But I still believe its wrong. And id still prevent it.

I absolutely love lesbians.

Was that the question?

Sweet gravy, the thread starts right off in selective-genetics and sexual-orientation, then slides in a line of religion, too! Why don't we just throw in a comment or two about wether the Iraq war is justified, if Dr. Kevorkian is the devil or an angel, and if love is just a chemical reaction! We can watch this forum explode from severe controversy overload!

Yah, well, it would probably be our luck that if we chose the "straight" embryo, it would be the the one that becomes a fat, stupid, ugly mass-murderer. I wonder if it is genetic to like breasts and long legs? Seriously, we waste too much energy and money on this stuff. I even think that its BS to say that it's God's Will. He gave us free will. One loves another because they justdo! It's sort of a choice, but more of a meeting of desires, and desires are acquired through living life.

It would be funny if parents did this service and got a gay child. Would they ask for their money back?

Lets put our money to stopping real defects! Where are those genes that cause obesity, bad attitudes, and the irrational belief that Britney Spears can actually sing? Now THERE is some useful selective breeding!

To answer your question: I would like to know if my baby might have threatening physical defects such as missing limbs or underdeveloped organs, but that's about it. Preventing homosexuality is really a choice or feeling that can't be prevented by someone else.

- BombJames Bomb

Not even gonna reply to Baklava. TG said it well enough. Good point too: people who are against male homosexuality but jerk off to lesbian porn (excuse me... It's true of A LOT of people though) have really got to figure out a few things.

Rabban: Loved reading your intelligent remarks. You're right and, sorry, I do tend to get charged with my comments. But yes, that is my argument to gay-bashers and anti-gay people, among others. I'm not saying that ALL people who don't support homosexuality (and I don't even support it as a practice - it just doesn't bother or offend me) are bashers. Sorry to come off that way.

And not to start an argument, but just my personal feelings and why I'm don't have problems with homosexuality for the same reasons you do: The Bible? C'mon, we all know the Bible is metaphorical. There are many other instances in the Bible, where we're told that one way is right and another is wrong, that would be catastrophic if we followed them as law. I personally could never say "the Bible says it's wrong so it's wrong," even if I was a devout Christian. As for family values, I've personally known of many gay couples that were superb parents and the harvesters of great children and families. I do agree that conflicts can be exacerbated by testosterone vs. Testosterone (or estrogen vs. Estrogen) in normal couple fighting. True dat.

As for the good of the world, well I think homosexuality could be one of the best things for our future if it was more widespread. The biggest problem in every facet of our future as a species is overpopulation. What better way to dampen its growth than a way of life that doesn't physically allow the creation of more people?

Just explaining why I don't have problems with it for the same reason you do... Not trying to get anyone fired up here.

)º(

Holy crap! I type too slow. Wait a minute while I read all these other posts that appeared while I was typing. Yilkes!

BombJames Bomb

Ok how about this...

I do believe gayness is genetic. But you will not be tempted more then you can resist.

If youre wondering about the word "gayness" well I m a believer in Christ not a believer of political correctness.

Heh, Oddball, are you familiar with the term, "Can of Worms?" :P

Look, people, relationships are formed because the other person has something we lack. They complete us. For some, they have led the kind of life where the same gender has what they lack. Right now, TG's partner provides her with something that the men she knows has not been able to provide. How the hell does genetics fit into that?

Lucky for me, I'm just not "complete" without access to silky feminine thighs and a nice rack. Seriously, though, I could not imagine really being as close to a man as I do a woman, simply because my woman sees the world in a way that I can't without her help. She completes me.

I think the gay thing starts simply because a person failed to experience something of his/her own gender, but got too much of a dose of the other gender. At this point, the common gender might do a better job of fulfilling them.

Or this is all random hogwash and the person just found someone really cool regardless of gender. Even I spent too much time thinking about this. Let's worry more about actual defects, like murderers, rapists, and thieves, okay?

- BombJames Bomb

James...

Me either:P

Uhhhh James.....

Other than the fact that I am a technology geek and tall (like my mother), there is not one thing about me or my body that reflects having too much of a dose of the other gender. I am lucky to have a very womanly body and I appreciate my sensuality in the company of both men and women...

Folks, is anyone here gay? Rabban admitted to having experienced a gay relationship but he decided it was a sin and takes solice in the teachings of the bible... But has anyone else had a homosexual relationship? I'm not talking about gay sex... I am talking about falling in love with a person who just happens to be the same gender.... Anyone here? Anyone??? If your answer is NO, then you have no reality on the experience and your opinions are null. How can you speak intelligently of something that you could not possibly understand? Because of a few lines in a 2000 year old book written by homophobic HUMANS? Gimme a break.

Being gay cannot be defined by genetics, nor an familial aberration, nor by social influences....it is not wrong, or right, or anything else..... It is just what it IS and is no different than being heterosexual.

Of course there are going to be gays who were abused by their fathers, or neglected by their mothers, or got too much of a genetic dose of the wrong chromosome. But this is not different than any other facet of life where an individual is effected by the same issues. When a person is a victim, sometimes the person becomes a murderer, sometimes they become a saint. But NOT ALL GAYS are victims of some problem (either psychological or physiological) that "Drove" them to being gay.

In my case, there is not one thing I can think of that caused me to fall in love with Caryn other than the fact that she is an incredible PERSON. I was dating a great guy when at the time that I got to know Caryn.... I could have just as easily fell in love with him (if he had been the right guy) but I fell in love with Caryn.

Like I said, I do not base my preference on whether the PERSON stands or sits when they take a piss.

Please (to the entire world) stop being so afraid, stop trying to "fix" people who don't have the same preference as you. Good Grief.

To those of you here in this community that think being gay is simply not your preference, good for you. To those that think being gay is aberrant or disgusting, shame on you. You are closed minded, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about because you yourselves are victims of prejudice.

Get over it.

OOPS, I ranted again.

Katherine the Lipstick Lesbian

Last edited: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 at 11:08:17 PM

If I post a picture of Caryn and I kissing passionately, will you make me take it down? It is a really REALLY nicely picture of two women in love, in a very tender moment. Will you make me take it down if I post it?

Last edited: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 at 11:11:31 PM

I wont if you do. XD Lol.

TG: That would be nice. But I wouldn't. You're really brave to want to with some of this crowd.

But in regards to your previous post: Go TG, GO, GO, GO, GO, GO!!! You said everything I think and just can't come up with the right words to express. Thanks for finding those words. You should be a public speaker or something (I was gonna say lawyer, but what a waste of talent that would be ;) )

)º(

VERY well put TG! Quite succinct in fact.

Yes James, well put too! There are FAR better things our scientists should be trying to "solve" than why someone is gay. I said it earlier, and I'll say it again. In my opinion, science looking into a "cause" for homosexuality is nothing more than an excuse for finding a way to STOP people from being gay, probably funded by the ultra-conservatives. I don't put such things past our government.

Correct me if I'm wrong - I believe a read an article not too long ago which indicated this rapid "population growth" or whatever you wish to call it could quite possible go the other way - population decline. With today's materialistic lifestyle, more and more adults are putting off having children, or not having them at all. As more and more countries adopt Western lifestyles, this will only exacerbate the problem.

My point is the comment about gay/lesbian/whatever term controlling population growth may be misguided. There may actually be an argument against homosexual relationships simply for the species to procreate. I suppose there is artificial insemination (sp), but that is no fun! I am not gay, but it does not bother me if others are. Just don't hit on me (unless you're a hot chic) :P

@TG: When I mean too much of a "dose" of the other gender, I do not mean you have attributes of that gender. More like you have had an abundance of experiences of that gender. This is only one aspect that might make a person gay. Most of my bi friends had a multitude of intense experiences with the opposite gender, making them decide it was time to be a little more open-minded about their selection. However, I have a couple bi friends without such experiences. In any case, that is why I included the following in my post:

[quote]Or this is all random hogwash and the person just found someone really cool regardless of gender.[quote]

While I have friends in the category, I certainly can't claim to have any experience. Women are simply cool in many ways beyond the physical aspects. I have a few male friends, and I have my entire Armor company, but otherwise I believe women make better friends and much better partners. Heh, of course, I guess you'd agree with me. ;)

If you'd like to post a a shot of Caryn and You (I'd like to see it), then post it as a link instead of an inline image. Then people can't complain about seeing it without asking.

@All: As for the whole bible "it's wrong" thing: Jesus talked and dealt with many crimes. Adultery, stealing, murder, and even misuse of a church as a market. However, I don't recall him ever saying "and sin no more" to a gay couple. There HAD to be some gay people in his travels! How come nobody brought them to be "healed?" Honestly, let's do the Jesus thing and just let them be.

Why am I typing this? It's Think Tanks time! See ya!

- BombJames Bomb

@ All,

I agree with fo fo, I love homosexuals, what was the question???

Lol.

Lauryn^TM

Good posts TG and JB

I cant say that one way is better than the other....one preference propogates the species and the other one doesnt. Either could be favorable depending on population state. If homosexuality is found to be genetic then there might be a problem....

I look at the positive. Homosexuality can be a good thing...

-When morons go gay they might prevent their genes from contaminating the rest of the world :)

-I wish more men would decide to go gay. That would leave more women for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-on the other hand it is frustrating to see hotties have nothing to do with men...

People I wanna play some TT....getting sick of hum...

B

If I'm given the opportunity to give an opinion on what I think about homosexuality, I think my views are just as valid as anyone elses. I have many reasons to feel that homosexuality is an improper lifestyle and just because I don't march along with pop culture doesn't mean I'm closeminded or backward. Why is it OK to disregard my opinions because I use a "2000 yo book" to base them upon?

I just find it curious that we're not able to take the pro-gay agenda to its logical conclusions. Why, oh why, can't I fall in love with a 16yo honey? Well, I guess I can. So, why can't I have a relationship with her? She's too immature? Since when has that ever really been a criteria for entering a relationship? Some 30yos aren't mature enough. I'll take advantage of her? So that doesn't happen in same age relationships? Let's say she's already sexually active, so it's not like I'm doing something she hasn't already experienced.

If it's really just about mutual love and commitment, nuturing and fondness, then I think it's about time to get rid of these age restrictions too. Once someone becomes a sexual being, it's time for relationships (either hetero or homo) and we can just get on with the lovin'.

The only real reason I can think of using today's standard of right and wrong is just because society says it's wrong. So I guess I just have to wait, right? Say, 20 years or so when our culture has the opportunity to shift and there's the new term, "Pediophobe", we'll be discussing the merits of "child love" and bashing those Bible-thumpers. Awww-right!

@ Ass Hat

I guess my attempt to word the question in the most generic way failed. You read a lot into that statement. Suffice to say that someone soon will find the "reason", and I intended simply to asked this group to debate what should be done with that information. The article itself stated the link to genetics.

As for myself, I share your view. I am the straight side of the sexuality continuum, but at times of my life have found myself the victim of homophobia, which is the real problem. It hurts everyone!

@Rabban: Sorry, but I gotta counter-point.

It's more than just an opinion of right/wrong. I know why a murderer, thief, and rapist are wrong. Until you can tell me what "wrong" a bisexual person commits to others, you are just being prejudice (for whatever original reason). I know this is a step beyond judging a person by their color, but don't be surprised if you are looked down upon for showing prejudice against the harmless. Remember, there was a time when people were using the bible proverbs as proof that the black people carried the "mark" of Cain and were therefore lesser folk. Yes, the translation was a stretch, but it is still one of the reasons why I avoid judging people.

Now the pedophile analogy is going to be a fun one! Okay, I'll admit, I strongly dislike pedophiles, versus my neutrality about bisexuality. Not sure if the two are that closely related, though. With bisexuality, one person is not really "taking advantage" of the other. While in crable-robbing, the experienced is certainly taking advantage of his/her authoritative stance and the other's lack of experience. Of course, this opens the continually-debated topic of when a person is considered an adult? I've seen a 15yo with more brain and maturity than some 20yos. But, who has the right to judge. I know you can never rate your own maturity, and the seducer is not exactly non-partisan in his/her opinion, so we have to have an outside ruling on when the two are equal and mature enough to take the relationship to the next step. Best we can do is a padded age-limit.

Yes, there are countries where adulthood is rated at an earlier age, but they live a life that makes them mature sooner as well. Gotta admit, Rabban, it's a view that might spark another fun debate! Won't solve the bisexual one, though, as I see them as being too different. Bisexuality goes against tradition, parts of the bible, and MAY mean that they are missing out on something. In pedophiles, there is a potential victim who will live with an eternal regret if he/she had grown enough to know better.

Oh, were we talking about genetics? Which gene has the pedophile gene? B)

- BombJames Bomb

OK James, let's really talk.

If we evolved then really how do you justify saying that murder, stealing and rape is wrong? Isn't it all part of the survival of the fittest? I don't think there are any rapes or age of consent issues in the wild. IF she's ready, the dudes fight it out and the winner gets her. If she doesn't like him, she has to escape, otherwise the strongest gets the girl. Animals kill animals all the time and they take what they want from each other.

I don't think you've really convinced me to leave the 16yo's alone. They're responsible enough to drive. We can get an abortion if she gets pregnant. If she's already sexually active, I don't see where I can't get some action too instead of letting it all go to waste on those bumbling teenage boys. I could probably take better care of her than they could anyway. Besides, why is it legal for two 17yos to get it on while a 17yo and 21yo is taboo? Government (that great organization designed to keep the masses under control) has infringed upon my lovelife and invaded my privacy.

Sure you may know these things are wrong in your heart (which I feel is a knowledge God has given us all), but then that heart feeling doesn't necessarily justify good law. Since you (and others) discount the wrongness of something based on God's law, then I suppose there's nothing really wrong with anything. I've tried to present "other" reasons in the past why homosexuality is wrong for individuals and societies and they've been ignored, so I won't bother doing it again.

While your "mark of Cain" comment is accurate, it wasn't what the Bible was saying. Contrast that with Galatians 6:19-21 ESV

That seems to be quite clear to me.

So in bisexual relationships there are no victims? I don't think you can say that for any relationship. People, in general, are screwed up in once sense or another so there's always the potental for victimization. Most relationships are pretty healthy, so to use a TG argument, don't base your view on dirty old men going after 8yos. So maybe you're right, the government shouldn't judge or decide any age of consent issues but allow the individuals make the decision based on their relationship and not what society thinks.

Since it seems like there is a consensus that homosexual behaviors are not genetic, there are choices being made. The real question is are the choices healthy or not? Are there negative nuturing and/or environmental influences that led someone to make that choice? If so, than that would be why God told us not to do it in the first place.

I asked the question in another thread, if homosexuality is genetic in the scheme of evolution, is it a mutation? Would we consider it an improvement for the good of the species? Maybe it's a negative one and that's why the Alpha males in the human pack wish to eradicate those with the defective gene. Perhaps they're not threatened by the lesbians since they're not going to breed, but they feel a need to stop the "abnormal" males from spreading the mutation and crossmating with normal (straight) females. Perhaps the "ancient ones" recognized this and that is why it is recorded in the sacred texts.

(man, this is deep)

Last edited: Thursday, May 06, 2004 at 3:51:52 PM

Interesting....I guess I'm a male lesbian...I LOVE WOMEN XD

@ Professor

And what exactly is wrong with a population decline? This world is already overrun by us 6 billion humans and the destructive activities we practice.

I could only hope that some day the homosexuals of this world convince the Pope a) its a good thing to start using condoms, and b) its a good thing to be homosexual.

@Oddball, I don't think less sex (or homogenous sex) is the answer. We just need to start letting the weak and feeble die and screw the compassion bit. %)

'If stupidity could be prevented, would you prevent it?'

No. I'd let it be. B)

If religion could be prevented, would you prevent it?

YELWA, Nigeria - Militants from a predominantly Christian tribe killed at least 500 people in two attacks on a Muslim town in central Nigeria, a senior Red Cross official said Thursday.

Ug.

Stinky

I'm staying out of the religion thing. Can't keep up with you two and, well, I'm just staying away from that one.

@oddball: Sorry to read into your statement too much. Yeah, your wording just got me, with the whole disease thing. Didn't mean to jump on your case.

@Professor: I really don't think population decline will ever be a problem. Once we start down the downslope of oil production, we'll never be able to keep up with even enough food for everyone, let alone all the comforts of our lives. The world's population doubling in, what, 20-30 years, with half as much oil by that time? I'm not gonna rant. Just do a Google search on "Peak Oil." Or read through all the text at lifeaftertheoilcrash.com and I think your optimism about the population will be quelled. I don't mean to get preachy, people, it's just one of my biggest personal research interests at the time! I'll shut up...

)º(

Okay, I don't want to start a bunch of people arguing with me, remember folks I'm not trying to offend anyone, this is only, I repeat only, my opinion.

I believe that homosexuality is neither better nor worse than heterosexuality. I support gay rights because I believe that people who are homosexual deserve the same rights as heterosexuals. I think that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, I am not religious, and I believe that simply because I feel like sexual preference should be free.

I will admit that I share with Katherine being more comfortable with lesbian sex than gay sex, but I still think it is up to each individual to have sex with the gender they please.

After all, a fundamental part of our constitution is supporting the pursuit of happiness. If somebody's pursuit of happiness involves having sex with someone of their gender, I guess I can't see how that infringes on anyone else's life. How is anyone hurt by someone else being gay?

As to the baby/genetics question, I guess I would be tempted to 'fix' any 'defects' that a future child would regret. These include diseases, deformities, murderous inclinations, etc. I don't think that would include homosexuality. I don't know any gay people personally, but my impression is that not many regret their sexual orientation (confirmation TG?). So who am I to decide a child of mine's sexual orientation? I would just as soon leave it up to fate.

Asterisk :o

Last edited: Thursday, May 06, 2004 at 11:43:16 PM

Well, I can throw a log onto the fire.

I think all of us have made it clear, from most peoples religious veiwpoint that homosexualitiy is wrong/evil/bad/harmful. No need to go down that well beaten path again.

Now replies.

@oddball

A lot of people are quoting the same line "scientific research has proven sexual orinatation is linked to genetics" I did a quick search for this "evidance" and found that the 'proof' was not all that clear. THere is SOME evidance that gentics might play a part of it in homosexual males, but they do not know how much. heres some info If you read it, it still is rather vauge to be called proof.

Regardless I think I know what you are trying for, if there was a way to "flip a switch" and make a person not homosexual, I think that is a rather simple choice for me. Of course.

Now the morality of the situation is trying to prove that the undesired behavior is wrong. Which is where the real heat of this argument comes from.

@K8

'Love" in the english language is such a poor way of describing a wide gambit of types, there are a thousand different kinds of love. There's the love you feel for a mother who writes to you every day during your first month away from home, and the love you feel for a mother who, when you stumble into the house drunk after driving home from the prom, slaps you and then embraces you. There's the love you feel for a man or a woman you've just made love to, and there's the love you feel for a friend who calls to give you support after you've just split up with your spouse. If love is shown, rather than named, each person will experience it and, what's more, will understand it in his or her own way.

I love my brother, but I don't want to go to bed with him.

I love one of my co-worders, but I don't go beyond a professional relationship

I love my neice, and don't want anything to hurt her

Our society in the past has encouraged all of us to avoid any homosexual leanings. In fact, homosexual people can later on have happy and healthy heterosexual FAMILIES. But these days homosexuals are describing anything that is against their lifestyle as discrimination. The main thing they want is to marry. But the problem is, marriage isn't just a cerimony of showing everyone your deep inimate lvoe for anotehr person, but something to create a stable and safe enviorment to raise a family.

As of yet, I do not think science has figured out a way for 2 men, or 2 women to to concive, and give birth to their genetic offspring. Why bother getting married at all? You should never marry jsut based on love, becasue it will never work out. From talking to many happy couples, that have been married for over 25 years, what keeps them together is a deep NEED for eachother to create a whole and compelte person. "I need her, she needs me" and "I need him, and he needs me" are common phrases. They compliment eachother, both physically, and emotionally.

And lets not forget it is more acceptable in our society for 2 women to get together, but not for 2 men for some reason. Guys LIKE watching 2 girls go at it, but it doesn't work the other way. Maybe we can say that the ladies are jsut as anti-homosexual as the rest of us non-homosexuals. Just in differant ways

Okay.. I think I did enoguh damage. :)

Uhhhh,,,, who says? Does that mean people who don't want children should not be allowed to marry? Should people with severe disabilities not be allowed to marry? How about old people that find love late in life and choose to marry.... Should they not be allowed because they are too old to bear children?

Remember that the act of "Marriage" is only a recent stitch in the history of mankind. A socialized ceremony, a bond, a commitment to the person you want to spend the rest of your life with. (I'm curious to know if the ceremony of Marriage is promoted in the bible? Can someone enlighten me?)

Who says that it is a prerequisite to building a stable family? It is a wonderful statement to the person you love.

Regarding Genetics and population control topics.... If you believe that homosexuality is Genetic, and/ or you believe that gays could adversely affect the population of the earth, THEN SUPPORT THE GAYS intentions to marry, let them live happily and let them grow old together... They wont be creating another generation-of-genetic-mutants-with-the-rampant-gay-gene.... You will get your way eh?

Regarding those of you (even the supportive among you) who can't seem to understand that homosexual relationships (just like hetero relationships) are more than just SEX, you need to re-evaluate your perception of the situation. There are a number of you (in various related threads) who focus entirely on the sex part of a gay relationship and base your stereotyped opinion strictly from that perspective. Guess what, a gay relationship has the exact same emotional hooks of a hetero..... More so in many ways because I think gays (for better and for worse) are much more in touch with their feelings, more of an open book.

Until next post...

Katherine the Lipstick Lesbian

@ Van... I keep reading your last post from top to bottom thinking that I must be missing a festive sarcastic tone.... But I think you spoke exactly what you felt.... I hope I'm wrong... Because I take great exception to just about every word you wrote... Including...

You do not really know any gay couples do you van? There are so many creepy things you said in this paragraph that I am not sure where to begin, or if maybe I shouldn't even dignify this statement with a reply? It is painfully obvious that you have not been around a loving couple who just happens to be the same gender. There is no difference between a healthy hetero and a healthy gay relationship.... That you think it is different, shows ignorance on this topic.

Van I realize I am using harsh verbage in my post to you here, I don't mean it as an insult to you as a person, but your awareness of what is real is in need of modification.

I think it would be kinda cool to see if I can help you understand a bit better. I hope you can open your mind a bit and be aware that you are speaking in stereotypes. You might be surprised.

No hard feelings Van...ok?

Katherinine

[EDIT: Oops, TG just posted while I wrote this! Well, my post stands as is.]

Ugh, I'm going to need to refill my coffee before I can dig into this stuff, so I'll keep my replies to the point.

@Rabban: "Sexual immorality" from the bible quote does not necessarily specify bisexual behavior. Heck, they could be talking about pedophiles! ;)

In any case, the line is drawn on our views of bisexuals. However, you make one heck of an argument for the age-differences and sex. It comes down to wether the younger member is both ready, willing, and is not being manipulated or driven by the more-experienced partner. Abortions hardly repair a regrettable situation. However, the government's solution is nothing more than a hack. It's wrong because it could ruin someone's life if it turns out they weren't ready to make such a decision, but we are unable to easily ascertain wether a person is ready or not.

Question for you guys: we know it is possible for a woman to take donor sperm and be artificially inseminated (man that sounds disgusting). Personally, I don't think a woman should get such a service if she can't even maintain a relationship (being that having a child is a relationship as well). But, it does open a whole field of other questions as far as same-sex couples and potential families go. Of course, is it any worse than children raised by single parents? Truthfully, I haven't made a decision on this yet.

I know I'm going to catch heat from TG for this, but while I support bisexual relationships and marriages, I rather feel bad for any children involved. It's gotta be rough not having the experience and views of both genders while growing up (people visiting the house does not count that much). TankGirl can hardly help her situation, as her kids came during her "hetero" years. But, I still have reservations about same-sex couples conceiving children.

Adoption is a bit different, since having a family is better than no family at all. Still, it's sad to be missing out on half of the gender experience.

Blech, these controversies gives me a headache. I support same-sex relations, think pedophiles are wrong (but that its hard to judge when it is a true pedophile situation), and adding children to same-sex relationships add a level of difficulty because the kid is missing out on some things in growing up (adoption could be reasonable, but conceiving is out). That's about it. I'm done.

- BombJames Bomb

Last edited: Friday, May 07, 2004 at 1:23:45 AM

@k8

I didn't really mean the whole post to be about you, but gays in general.

But please, don't try to use my ignorance to defend your position. I have never seen a lasting succesful hetero relationship. I haev a cousin who has a "partner" but then again, my family is fairly concervitive so we kind of ignore him. But for all the exposure that celebreties have been giving to being gay, and all the 'movements' by pro-homo groups. Not once have I seen a lasting eternal homosexual relationship between 2 people. Of course that could very well be that people suppressed their urges 20-40 years ago, but why is it now that Homosexuality is almost being celebrated? It almost seems that gays are encouraging non-gays to experiment, try it out, and see what they are missing. UGH, this is making want to throw up.

K8 as a mother with kids (Boys I seem to recall), do you honestly belive think they are going to develope as normal healthy children and eventualy be able to have happy, and succesful hetero family? Can you (or your partner) provide the good example of a father figure that they might wish to become? I feel sorry for your kids becuase they are not going to have the opportunity or chances I did with my loving parents. WHich is right for them? A gay lifestyle or hetero?

Sorry Van,

You are quoting stereotypes.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The sad thing is, you are sure you understand the big picture....

I won't try to get you to open your eyes. I can see that you prefer them shut... So be it.

Last edited: Friday, May 07, 2004 at 2:47:15 AM

I think Van has a point in saying that children need the influences of both sexes in order to be well balanced. I think that's why you need both sexes to have children. A son with two women in the house isn't going to have the male influence he needs, especially when he gets older. This *could* open him up to the possibility of choosing a gay lifestyle himself later on since he's going to crave male relationships. To what degree he pursues those relationships is up to him since I still feel a choice is involved. A "man on loan" can help, but he's no substitute for a father. Even at 5 my son is starting to crave more time with me in order to do "man stuff". He needs that so he can know what it means to be a man. I hope TG is making every effort to get her son with his father as much as possible.

I also think it's unfair to say, "you gotta be gay to understand and have an opinion" or "you're just using stereotypes". You can't really judge someone's life experiences based on what they post here. Van hasn't seen a lasting homosexual relationship. There's no stereotype there. I haven't seen one either. The gay guy, "W", I know recently asked his lover to leave. "Milo" was a bit whacked in the head, so I don't think I could attribute the breakup to being his being gay. I will say that those guys fit the "stereotype" though. I knew "W" was gay after being around him for about 5 minutes. Mostly due to voice pitch, verbage and body language. The braided beads and feather on one side with the ear ring and rat tail helped too. So in his case, the stereotype is real.

TG, you've even said that you prefer guys, but you make it sound like to couldn't help but to fall in love with Caryn. I'm sure you don't mean to imply that your always subject to your emotions and you can't control where they take you. Is it possible that "Mr. Wrong" was a real ass and you don't want to deal with guys BS any more? I kinda gets me that you even admit that you're not really a lesbian (so to speak). Perhaps you're not the norm for the lifestyle and not a good point of reference.

@James - So we're down with the Olson twins??? ;)

But seriously, I wanted to mention that "sexual immorality" isn't focused on bi, homo, or pedo relationships. It's about ANY sexual relationship outside of heterosexual *marriage*.

Last edited: Friday, May 07, 2004 at 11:13:58 AM

@ rabban what is

???

When u cheat because u are an IDIot?

When u IDOLize people that cheat?

Is it adultry mispelled (lol)

JB I agree. Need both parents in the house. I believe that the high divorce rate, double incomes, single sex parents, etc are a major contribution to my generation of idiots.

B

@Rabban,

My point to van is that he has not been exposed much to people who are gay so he speaks only from stereotypes. I know many MANY gay couples, both male and female who are in life-long relationships including some friends of mine who has been in the same loving relationship for more than 23 years. At the same time, I know far more hetero marriages that ended in divorce with the couples children bearing the weight of parents who are no longer in love and battle all the time. It IS fair for me to say Van is using stereotypes because he IS and it is clear that he has no idea what he is talking about. It is COMPLETELY fair for me to condemn his opinion in this situation because it is clear that he has misconceptions and speaks with faux authority.

So, if you and Van can focus on the freaks of the Gay community and judge all gay relationships by that criteria, maybe I will watch the WWF Smackdown and judge all males by THAT criteria. Give me a break.

Sterotypes stereotypes stereotypes.

Have you (or anyone else who has ever fallen in love) "been subject to your emotions"?.... ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! Why would this be so much more acceptable to you if I had fallen in love with a Man? Why does this make such a difference? Caryn is an incredible person, she surprised me and I am soooooo lucky to be with her. I am not a feather blowing on an emotional breeze, I am in control more than most men I know (gay or straight), but I (like anyone else) fell in love with someone and was swept off my feet.

You are right that I don't label myself as being a "Lesbian" or being "Straight". Those are labels that society uses, I simply don't care about the gender of the person that I fall in love with.

Regarding male influences in my children's lives, this is a top priority for me and my boys have far better male role models than many (or dare I say MOST) of the hetero parents that I see. I don't care to go into details.... But I am well aware of the pitfalls of raising boys with a less-than-typical family makeup. How many hetero couples practically have a library of child development books and videos? The only problem I have with my current child-dev scenario is that I own a business so I don't feel like I get enough quality time with my kids, but this is not a gay or straight issue.

Does my relationship increase the chance that my boys will choose boys instead of girls? Give me a Fu#$ing break.... Get real. Read a little, open your eyes.

I'm sorry if this comes off as offensive to anyone, but anyone that hasn't "seen" a long lasting homosexual relationship probably needs to move out of whatever bumfuck nowhere town they are living in and get into a large city. Come to New York and you will see MANY long lasting and HEALTHY LOVING homosexual relationships. I know of several and I don't even have the tendency to hang out with homosexuals, even though I support their rights to their lifestyle.

My aunt on my mother's side is lesbian, and TRUST me when I tell you, her long lasting relationship with another woman is very much on a love and companionship level. Not much on the sexual side drove them together. I also know of a male gay couple, who have been together for many years, longer than most hetero marriages last. They are both intelligent, caring and loving to one another. Quite honestly, they seem more WELL ROUNDED than most hetero people I know!

All this stereotyping going on here of gays being driven by sexual relations and their relationships being "unhealthy" and "unnatural" or whatever is hogwash! That's not to say that some of it isn't driven by those needs. Sure, you've got your freaky flamboyant gays and such. But the SAME things can be said about many sexually driven hetero relationships, so it pretty much negates the point.

My point is this. Too many people here talking from standpoints they can't POSSIBLY understand. I can't fully relate either, but I'm not hidden away in the friggin' bible belt or wherever, sheltered away from alternative lifestyles. My exposure to it living my whole life in NYC at least gives me a more open perspective on it.

Sorry if anyone was offended by my notion that people need to get out more, but too bad. I'm tired of hearing these falsehoods being thrown around.

@Bolo, what are you tallking about???

@TG, it's really something for you to put "W" in the "freaks" catagory. I like the guy and I think he's nice and I don't think it's fair to put him down for how he chooses to express his choice just because you feel it puts you in a bad light. I also think it's unfair to always call "stereotype" when dealing with how people view homo relationships but then use stereotypes to describe dissenters, men and hetero relationships.

Perhaps you need to open your eyes as well.

Last edited: Friday, May 07, 2004 at 12:51:15 PM

@ Rabban, sorry, don't know what you are talking about regarding "W". I did not make any mention of him whatsoever, I didn't consider him in anything I wrote, nor did I put him in the freaks category. Your last post is off base.

@OM, Thank you. It still amazes me how much people (even those in support) speak in broad-stroke generalizations (stereotypes) and they don't even realize it. You replied to this much better than I, thanks again for offering your voice here.

Last edited: Friday, May 07, 2004 at 1:01:08 PM

@OM, Heck boy, if'in I'da want ta live in Sodom, I'da moved thar long ago. I jist guess you city folks is jist to book lerned fer me. <yuck, yuck> Now who's judging by a stereotype?

@TG, do you even read my posts or just scan them?

<later> OK, you're passionate about this, but I don't want to fight about it. This thread is starting to take the usual, pre-locking, turn for the worst and I don't think it's fun anymore. I mean, if I want to fight, I can go home and do that, right? :) I don't think we're going to change each other's mind and I really don't think that's the goal anyway. I'm open for discussions, but I don't think that's where we're heading.

Peace and Love.

Last edited: Friday, May 07, 2004 at 1:18:13 PM

Rabby, yes, I did read every word. Sorry for the misunderstanding, when I wrote about the freaks in the gay community, I really wasnt referring to your story about W or Milo, I was reacting in a broader sense to the multitude of times I have heard an argument against gays being based on a distaste for the extremes (the freaks) in the gay community. I don't like to see the dog-collar wearing, leather-clad freaky boys walking around in SF and screaming loudly about gay rights... Makes me kinda sick as I think the vocal extremists in the community cause a public perception issue with those of us that are normal contributors to society.

This is true for any extremists (freaks) in any facet of life. The woman who recently murdered her three children with complete conviction that she was told by god to save their souls does not do any favors for religion. Wife beaters, pedophiles, degenerates don't do much to bolster our belief that men are good etc....

It is just kinda disappointing that after all this time, there is still a stigma in many parts of the world that a gay relationship cannot be a healthy one, or the perception of all gays are lumped together with the freaks of the gay community, or, as expressed clearly in this thread, that there are people being vocal about the gay community that have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

Also, in your reply to OM where you ask him who is stereotyping now, you and van leave the impression that you are not in tune with the reality of the gay community.. I completely agree with OM, whether or not he and I are stereotyping you.

I wish you could see how far off base you and Van are.

(Boxing Ring)

In the left corner, weighing in at 500 pounds, we have the studded-collar-wearing, lisp-speaking, vulgar guy stereotype marching down the streets and demanding all freedoms due to him/her including having sex in the streets.

In the right corner, also weighing at 500 pounds, we have the bible-thumping, rosary-clutching religious zealot storming down the straight and burning his words into each passerby that their actions will send them on a 1-way trip to hell!

In the middle of the ring, we have a bunch of people accusing each other of being in one corner or the other. Heck if one isn't being accused of being a stereotype, they are being accused of the act of stereo-typing others!

Look, Rabban isn't a bible-freak, TG isn't a gay-trooper, and Van isn't a type-setting idiot. The PTT community is full of people who just call it as they see it based on what experience they have.

We are never going to all agree on this, so let's give it a rest. I think I've seen this debate on three separate threads now. Oddball, you are fined 2 scrums for starting this mess. ;) I'm sentenced to death by Area Effect for acting like I'm the forum-police. :P

- BombJames Bomb

@ James

I find these threads very valuable in redefining or reaffirming my own beliefs & values. Very rarely do I get a chance to discuss such meaty issues in my offline world. We all tend to migrate toward like minded people who think the same as us, that opnions contrary to ours are never really heard or understood. I would really like to invite TG, Van, Rabban, OM, and stink (only after a shower) and a few others out for a few drinks, and really get into some good debates about stuff. Sure they would never be friends in real life, but as long as everyone can agree to disagree and all sharp objects are removed from arms reach, it could be quite fun.