Get your 10 ft pole ready...

A refreshing change from religion and sexuality; racism.

Pretty depressing statistics 50 years after school segregation was outlawed. Is raciscm to the only culprit, or do Blacks share some responsibility for their condition?

Ooops...genius!

Tal pal how can you see my leap with your head in that hole? Heh heh :) Need a shovel?

Really you have no statistics nor any ability to put forth anything other than your opinions here. Discussion? Sounds like debate class to me circa 10th grade. Nor IMHO anything to show here but yet another young bright person who won't really try and make a difference in the world. Thats sad. So is the edit btw..I find it a tad offensive in fact, but hey thats me. I would never feel that a faith other than my own, or if I had none, was anything I would oppose or be 'anti'. Not that I think you meant that literally but for all your 'waxing poetic' you seem to miss out on conveyence of your true self perhaps. Hope so anyway.

And Bolo I think most people here accept your beliefs that you stated elsewhere. LOL I guess we have an anti-deist though.

HOHOHO :) j/k

Az

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 7:17:47 AM

Ooops!...madman!

ROFL Stink. Weren't you ordered to the playing field a few threads back lol? We miss ya at FOS for sure.

BTW Sorry if my posts seem tearse to anyone. It's just that the state of this country due to it's racist past is something that surely does creep into all of our lives even still today. It's a troubling problem to be sure. I can't take it lightly.

Az

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 8:19:33 AM

I was ordered back in az, and I intend to go...but I just had acl surgery, so its hard for me to sit at my desk and play...but easy to lie on the couch and type....besides....i'm so gonzo on pain killers, I would be butchered out there...i miss playing too, especially at FOS with all you...see ya soon

Heal well Stinko. Ack oxies? Don't do a Rush Limbaugh on us lol. Gotta love right wing addicts.

Az

Lol...rush limbaugh! I AM starting to pork up a bit! And I'm sweating profusely....uh-oh...i'm in trouble....where's my crackpipe?

LOL Stink oh nooo are you a racist now too. LOL Hey but we're back on topic. Guess we 'could' hypothesize about weather racist beliefs in America are more prevelant in those who lean left or right. I won't go there. Wake up Tal lets get a witty post from ya.

Az

@44 & Tally - Why can't I be witty and sarcastic too? Besides, don't I have the right to be a bigotted racist if I want? Anyhoo, no matter what I say, whether seriously or in jest, I'm going to be painted in a negative manner and I'm gonna get bashed irregardless _{see another thread for that ref} . I guess folks just want me to be a racist so it fits into their worldview of us WASPs. Okaaay. Just tell me what you want me to say and I'll just follow along.

Perhaps I'll just start saying, "I like lesbians, what was the question?", and keep everyone happy.

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 11:52:16 AM

All white people are racists because whites are benefactors of a system set up 500 years ago. You don't like it, change the system; Don't hate the playah, hate the game.

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 12:30:55 PM

@ 56K

I won't deny my inspiration for this post came from Bill Cosby' speach. I think he has done more for the Afro American cause than Puffy, Snoop Dog, etc. It generated a great discussion however I'm dissapointed it didn't generate more; K8 or Vash where are you?

@ 44

For the record;

There are over 30 million Canadians up here amassed at the worlds largest unguarded border just waiting to swoop down with our comedians, newcasters, films makers, and female pop divas and take over the place. The best maple syrup I've had came from Vermont, and the best beer I've had came from Belgium. You can keep Celine though.

Some of us may be born idiots, but at least we don't elect them to lead the country.

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 1:02:08 PM

Noooooooooooooo...not female pop-divas!

Two great things to come out of canada, Kids in the Hall and beer. US beer sucks.

@Oddball"

Damn. As a U.S. Guy, that hurts a little, but that is almost witty enough to but on a maple-leaf t-shirt and make a buck on!

Gotta make a quick statement. Sometimes, I don't think we'll ever be over racism, even if the past is completely forgotten and people are born in equal homes. Many people are still are prejudice against the fat or ugly, so skin-color and facial features is just another physical attribute to throw into the bag of illogical disdain. I think this is what runs through the sub-conscience of your average profiler:

If they look different, they must BE different. And like hell am I going to believe that "thing" is better than me, so I must be better than "it!"

Once again, I'm probably oversimplifying things, but I don't think I'm too far off base. As for the atheist/racism correlation, many churches already infuse the concept that "we are better than those other pathetic unbelieving saps." I think the simpler minded just carry this too far and start applying it to all people different from them. As Tally says, this is enough to sway the numbers, but not to the point of accusing religion of causing racism. It think it just gives a nudge to those that already are potentially prejudice.

In the Bay area, we have so many races here that it would be hard to want to live here if you hold any racist thoughts. Most people here who still have racist thoughts had some bad experience recently with a certain race (mugged by a black man, etc) and then somehow linked the thought that all people of that race must be scum. Kind of sad, really. If I thought that way, I'd be racist against my own race!

And that's about it.

- BombJames Bomb

@Memphis - Dang man. All whites are racist?

So how do you propose we change the system? Whites are still in the majority in America (though maybe not regionally) and their vote is a controlling vote. Unless you're proposing racial quotas, I don't see how power's really going to shift.

I want to know how you're going to change the system. I want to know how you want me to think and act (besides having non-white friends and lovers) so that you won't think I'm a racist.

The conclusions I'm drawing in my head are scaring me, so please, explain what you're saying.

@ rabban - It begins by changing the institutions that have been set-up and that requires some heavy re-thinking by those who are in structural power. They've got to be willing to change the system; I'm not talking about the voting system or laws. What needs to change are the policies and procedures of companies (no not quotas, they don't work and never have). We need to Re-write the formative documents and mission and vision statements of companies and institutions to be anti-racist. They need to be willing to say that they are anti-racist, to say that you aren't racist isn't enough. You have got to give up some of the power that has been given to you and be willing to fight against racism. If you can't fight against it, then you're friends, lovers and kids will continue on in the same system of oppression. Most of us are on the outside of the institutions and it takes getting into the core of the institutions to make change. Think of any business, insurance company and non-profit organization in your area, and that is where we need to effect change. And it is at the core of formative documentation and policies. It is a tough road, and it will take decades to do. You're a racist, because you're a benefactor of a system, not because of your thoughts or friends or compassion for humanity which I am sure you have. It's about power, control and the system.

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 2:07:12 PM

ACL reconstruction survivors unite!

Now, where are my before pictures....

_{tally slides over and reaches for the big red eject button labeled {pre-midnight wit? Nay!}}

"you seem to miss out on conveyence of your true self perhaps."

Dude, if you only knew.

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 3:14:15 PM

@Rabban

I don't know -- it takes practice I guess. Maybe stink can offer some pointers?

You absolutely have the right to be a bigoted racist if you want. I think you'll find you'll be painted in a less negative manner if you say things that are either more clearly ironic/sarcastic, or less bigoted.

That will be a good start with me; less so with most conservatives -- but who cares about them anyway.

Try this one: "It's better to tolerate and celebrate differences than to fear them."

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 3:32:57 PM

@Oddball

Touche.

As I think you know, Canadians being "born idiots" was said in jest and as an ironic twist on my previous post. BUT... Bush was clearly born an idiot -- as were a lot of the voting minority that cast their ballot for him.

"30 million Canadians waiting to swoop down on us"? What are you gonna do? Pacify us to death? :)

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 3:40:54 PM

@44 - Since most folks here know I'm a Christian Republican, I'd say theyre predisposed to take everything I say as being from the racist/bigoted/discriminating/closed-minded/fanatic POV. Hmm, would that be prejudice?

And you're just blowing my mind. You don't get me at all, but the scary thing is you think you do. And instead of replying with something like, "I can't tell anyone how to think or feel", you actually offer a line that you think I need to adopt. Wow.

===

I'm kind of struck by the lack of response to Memphis' assertion that all whites are racist because of the system. I think he's using his own definition of racism in this thread. Webster sez...

Memphis, I'm still not sure what you want changed.

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 3:47:55 PM

@ALL

The hypocrisy in my last two posts has not escaped my attention.

On the one hand I say, 'we should tolerate and celebrate differences'. On the other hand I say, 'many conservatives are idiots'.

There is an easy explanation that explains the apparent contradiction:

Most Bush-liking conservatives truly are idiots.

Just want to clarify lest anyone think I was inconsistent.

@Rabban

Straw man arguement in this situation.

If you had said, "I think Jerry Fallwell has a lot of good ideas", and then, if I had responded, "You are a bigot" -- that would be prejudice.

But, when you say...

...I'm going to say that I think you are either unskilled in the usage of irony or sarcasm, or a bigot.

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 3:59:22 PM

@44

Actually, yes.

Disarm you with laughter, pacify you with music, sedate you with cheap drugs, send our hockey players in to take over the Government, and then tell you on the evening news that everything is OK, eh?

Brilliant, I think.

_{and then Oddball mysteriously "disappeared" and was never heard from again.}

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 6:29:28 PM

Dictionary.com - racism - 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race; take that definition a step further and you have the form of racism to which I am referring. It's called institutional racism.

If we are to change the systemic form of racism to which I am referring, rather than the individual form to which you are referring, then we need to change the formative structures that are in place in our present institutions. I am advocating a change that begins at the heart of every institution, the ideas and principles that formed it.

If you want more background and info, check out this site: project change

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 4:32:03 PM

Aye memphis, but we are not an institution, they are. Is a man who admittedly benefits from "institutional racism" but who donates a large portion of his salary to the underprivileged minorities racist ? Does he celebrate the suppression of blacks? You would have a hard time convincing him of that. I'd go on with that point, but I do not want to dilute what I've already said.

---

Rabban: Sarcasm and humor are tricky here. If you say something iffy, about something so touchy, you may want to be either a) more humorous/sarcastic, b) more serious, or c) use some of the smileys. I use the smileys to ensure that nobody takes me seriously :).

---

Anyone who says "all" or even "most" of any one group is any one thing is most assuredly an idiot.

---

Az, after further review, I think you do know.

No offense Memphis but you've used a lot of words to say very little. I understand whay you're trying to say so don't take this as an attack. Although, if you were to tell me that I am a racist we would have a problem. Can you understand that you would be alienating me by insisting that the values that I hold are meaningless because the system has already made me a racist. How do you suppose you fix a system if you already have presumed that every single cracker is a racist? Quite frankly that statement was rather ridiculous.

It would be best for you to not generalize and would be the only possible way that your hypothesis would succeed.

IMHO

It starts and ends with people, not systems, policies or institutions. Minorities can get deep inside the core of every institution in the country and it still would not help. It is my belief that it begins and ends with child rearing. I also strongly believe that a strong dose of institutional education devoted to equal rights in the early years would be most invaluable. Getting deep inside current institutions will inevitably, I fear, not change people like Rabban. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we are to eradicate this disease we must start with our young people. It's easier to put an idea in a child's head that racism is wrong, than persuading an adult who holds this idea as a belief. Changing a system will have little effect because it is not human, and only people who create the system can be inhuman. Which leads to my belief that our young people are the most intrical part in changing this "system." Anybody I've talked to that feels they have been the subject of racism does not blame the system, they blame people. I agree. I think your idea would only create appeasement not a radical change.

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 5:56:42 PM

@Rogue,

All I can say is...WTF!!! I can't believe this!!! I think I'm finally on a topic where I can agree with most of the folks here in the forum while trying to test the waters and get people to look at things a little differently and wham-o, I'm a racist. I can't win.

OK, OK...in the quote 44 uses -

I used subtext, a wink and a goofy look. I thought that would be enough.

However, the story itself is true. The blacks in my group were lighter than the blacks from Florida and Florida gang thought something was wrong with my friends. And it is true that most of the blacks in my group didn't like to do a lot of hard work in the sun. Some other friends did, however, and we put up many of bale of hay together throughout the summer.

And it is also true that my first time was with a black girl. We were very good friends for a long time and since I was a "little" drunk and getting ready to leave for college, she decided it was time to express her true feelings for me. Honestly, she seduced me. Anyhoo, it's a fond memory and we're still friends to this day. It was a little weird having her at my wedding, but my wife knew the situation and was cool with it.

So are people in my family racist? Yes. My wife's family? Yes. But that doesn't it make EVERYONE in my family a racist.

I think some people just need to get off their high horses and open their minds a little if we're going to have any meaningful discussions here. _{of all the nerve}

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 6:57:50 PM

@Tally

Unfortunately, I think I agree with you.

I might rephrase your position as follows:

All people who choose to characterize a different group of people as all sharing of a certain characteristic, are themselves idiots.

So, do you agree?

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 7:01:04 PM

Great responses. In my experience, I have found that racism occurs on many levels, if I call you a racist, it isn't because I think that you personally have something against people of a different color, or prejudge or discriminate in any way. As Rabban pointed out, I am working with a different definition which presupposed that there is a system put into place in the US society which has been designed to benefit one primary demographic, white males. Think on a larger scale, in your unknown predispositions to people different than you, what you have learned, what has been programmed into you, educationally, socially, parentally. You may not like it, in fact I hope that you don't. My main goal here has been to push many of you to see racism as something that is more than individual attitudes and beliefs. Here's something more concrete:

I grew up in a small town, where people saw me no differently than anybody else, it was a great place, caring and compassionate. I saw myself in this same light, no different than anybody else. When I got into the larger world, I was treated differently, ignored when I went to shop for shoes, followed when I was in an electronics store for 45 minutes and then asked to come inside after buying a super nintendo for suspicion of shoplifting. When I go into a store with white friends and we separate, they get excellent service, I get followed or ignored. The sad part is, no one who has treated me this way is aware that there is a problem.

So in some respects ROGUE, you are right, I agree with you that racism begins with individuals. We can only break down racial barriers when we begin to know and respect people different from us. But until white people in the US begin to understand that there is a system set into place that benefits them on a seriously large scale, then they will continue to be racists. If you find that statement ridiculous, you should...because its true.

Redefine your understanding of racism if you want a true grasp of what the history of oppression has done to the minorities of this country. If you don't like what I've said, I am not sorry, I only hope that it has caused you to gravitate towards what it means to be oppressed and to benefit from that oppression. Having had this conversation with many friends, I understand how much it hurts to be told you're a part of the system. I hope that it pushes all of you to want to do something about it, rather than leave it up to individuals. Individuals won't do anything about it, you might, they won't.

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 7:15:19 PM

Also, I'm going to shut up now, I feel like I'm saying too much in a forum. However if you want to engage in further discussion, my e-mail address can be found in my profile.

You're logic is flawed, and after I eat lunch, I'm going to tell you why. In the mean time:

"Is a man who admittedly benefits from "institutional racism" but who donates a large portion of his salary to the underprivileged minorities racist? Does he celebrate the suppression of blacks?"

Tally: that's a nasty scar...mine was arthroscopic, and they gave me a menisectomy while they were at it...but I have tiny little scars...and a knee that's the size of a basketball right now....how's the knee now?

44: you go buddy

Rabban: you do use irony effectively from time to time, but that imfamous example above was not one of those times! Sorry, but you may be experiencing some right-wing, religious backlash from the educated lefties in these posts...but right-wing religious people have some backlash coming, if you ask me....

Besides, I don't think jesus would have been republican...something about the meek, turning the other cheek, and jesus' propensity to question status quo....antithetical to GOP doctrine I think...but not antithetical to "christianity" as it is practiced today in the main....

What was the question? Tally, you done with lunch yet?

Stinky

@ Tally: Racism isn't about celebration or basking in one's benefits it is about power and control. But with the current system, I would say, "Yes". Here's why, the system is still in place and said altruistic philanthropist is still the one with power and control. He decides who gets what, and the minority is subject to the whims of the donator. Now, is there some good in the alruism, absolutely. The minority is definitely benefitting from the gift that is given, but wouldn't it be great if the minority did not need to rely on such gifts? The heart of the giver is also in the right place, without question. But what I am talking about isn't about the individual, it's about the system, and the system won't let anyone off the hook, no way no how. SO what do we do? What I do know is we can't continue on in the same way that we always have, nor can we simply leave things up to quotas and trying to find some racial harmony through percentages. What I suggest is that we continue to educate ourselves by getting to know others of different ethnicities and understand what they are going through. Secondly, we need to allow some room for differences in our worldviews, which works both ways, for the majority and the minority. Thirdly, all of us need to realize that people are still treated differently because of the color of their skin, their name, or their religion or system of belief/unbelief. I think that something in the institutions needs to change, because that is where a large part of the power is coming from, that's where decisions are made, that's where policies are set in place. If we can change how systems are set up, then we can go even further in dismantling racism. Otherwise, we'll all be talking about the same old crap 100 years from now.

Ps...i believe that rabban intended irony in his post, especially after a second read...give him a break please...

Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, I forgot to put the LOL after the Rabban reference. I'm sorry Rabban the more you explain yourself the funnier it gets to me. Another Catch 22 I figure.

Memphis please continue. This should not be a private conversation, that's part of the problem.

BTW: Down with Canada!

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 8:57:12 PM

Wait...is this supposed to be a light topic?

I have come to chew bubble gum and to kickass. Does that make me a racist?

(dismounting from high horse)

Making assumptions about a person's character based solely on board postings is risky. If, as you say, those comments did not reflect your true attitudes -- good. I extend an olive branch and hope you can have a positive influence on others in your family. Very few things get me more riled than ignorance and prejudice. I'm going to start thinking about lesbians now.

Bravo to Memphis and Rogue. I couldn't agree more.

They both cut to the heart of matter. The teaching of human rights and dignity starts in the home certainly.

It's sad to me that civil rights don't seem to be to hot a topic on political platforms in the US during election years. JFK and MLK where are you. Somebody please raise one or two already.

I grew up in the 60's...it wasn't supposed to take this long..or so I thought.

Az

100% az.For the rest, I'll let it go. The bottom line is that, in the end, I agree with Memphis's ultimate goals, but not his logic or his argument. Two horns on the same bull maybe; perro v. Dog, god v. Allah...

Good thread. Now, where were we...

Last edited: Thursday, May 27, 2004 at 9:37:03 PM

Ah yes....lesbians.....

I absolutely love lesbians. Was that the question?

Lesbians??? Isnt the one on the right tally with the curly hair??

B

Well, I feel bitter, er, better. I just need some of the BOTD (Benefit Of The Doubt) when I say things that seem objectionable instead of getting piled onto.

I agree with Tally's feelings concerning Memphis' statements. You can blame the system, but it's made up of indivduals and their personal decisions/viewpoints. I doubt it was store policy to follow people of color around the store. I also think it's interesting to note that Memphis didn't feel singled out in a small town, but in the world at large. In a previous thread, someone was lauding the superiority of big city thinking and it's being openminded, but sometimes I think the opposite can be true as well. In a close community you can really get to know the people you care about (of course, everyone can be in your business as well).

BTW, Biodome sucked.

Last edited: Friday, May 28, 2004 at 11:02:13 AM

I'm not sure who's point this proves, but I had to post it for comment.

Soul Plane

See, rabban can be funny...biodome sucked! He says lol!

WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE? (show me that picture again, the one with the two girls) ;)