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Slightly off topic:
Now that we are all settled, we are hitting the todo lists to get the next version of ThinkTanks out the door. We read through all the feedback on the forums, and made a quick roadmap of our plans for ThinkTanks. Here is what we came up with:
1.1
Target Range
Adjust Tanks to make heavy more useful
Make Aiming easier
Ammo reload doesnt delete powerups
Scrumball hops toward center of map
Added an option to cycle between all maps from a dedicated server.
Increase time that low ammo message is on the screen.
Increase range of radar
Change transparency of radar
Health powerup shows up on radar when health is low
Lifting finger off mouse for an extended period reloads ammo burst(no more one shot bursts)
Pause for solo play (ESC key)
Remove the ability to make a Demo name in registered version.
These were the items we decided had the most bang for the buck. Most were easy to implement without a huge round of bugtesting and improve the fun facotr without hurting the gameplay we have.
We also spent some time optimizing the builds to get a smaller download footprint. We will let other developers know what we did to crunch our download from 15MB to 8MB. We did this for our release on Shockwave.com. Lots of new players have been on the servers since the launch, and it is pretty exciting. If you have not played ThinkTanks online since the GG launch, try it again, as you will have no trouble finding a game.
Planned for 1.2
Create a bat file for favorite games (auto drop to a server, no shell)
Customize key binds (with menu)
Assign hot keys to chat messages
Player appears more prominent on radar when they have the scrumball
Post-game chat
Team skins (will require everyone to upgrade)
Scrum icon by player names
health meter (will need playtesting)
These changes are doable but will require work on the shell and may break the builds (no backward compatibility). With so many new players joining the community, we didn't want to force them to upgrade right after they download the demo just to play. We have a few other launches coming up, and after things stabilize somewhat, we will start working on these. Many of these items will require a round or two of testing.
the Future
Ignore a player (chat messages)
Replay feature (with ability to save replay)
New scrum maps
Ability to pass or drop scrum ball
More dedicated server options
Client side bad word filter
Search chat
High scores (global)
Auto balancing of human players in team mode
Invisible and speed powerups
Preset stickers or submission stickers
Game Variations (CTF, KOTH, ???)
Ability to see other tanks chatting (icon above head)
Readme for fixing file permissions in multi-user environment.
More tanks
more powerups
More Maps
Extended Single player game
These are wish list items. Right now we are contemplating these and other features the community is suggesting. If there is demand, and if we have the resources to do it, we will add it (as long as it does not make the game less fun).
-Joe M. (Pokemalo) on Jul 25, 2003
We shall see if there comes something or not, but most likely they're trying to first publish their dRacer(spelling?) game and after that they might consider updating TTanks.
At one point the nicknames of TTanks makers disappeared from the ptt member list. I see that as a message that there're moving onward.
You don't have to let go of one rope before grabbing the other. But you'll have to let go of one if you want to swing forward.
Even knowing that PokeMalo breathed on this thread would be reassuring in some fashion.
^ I concur. Like the replay idea and post-game chat (I'm not computer-literate enough to hook up a video camera to my PC).
Heh BT gives monthly press conferences to the effect that they are busy now and any TT update is... Far down the line. Nothing new. I think in the absence of an ETA nothing is nor will happen!
It's all about incentive and from what I can see... Seriously the current TT income stream is not enough for BT to warrant diverting resources to develop TT1.2.
Here's an idea, feel free to augment it: why don't we 'pre-buy' a TT1.2 update? Say 50 peeps giving $20 = $1000. Is it enough to have a coder spending 10 days implementing features? 56k? Poke? I know; $2000 would be better... :)
Or here's another wicked idea: why don't we hire a coder from the community to implement new features? An 'Unofficial TT 1.2' coming out soon?
I got a 20 spot burning holes.
Love the idea of an unofficial update Hugo but what about the players that aren't part of PTT? They will miss out, but then again we could just put them in the right direction.....
Round up the scripters!
^^ I'd buy an update.
Sometimes when a software title has reached the end of line the developers will open-source it. Could be a cart/horse thing I suppose, but no news sometimes is bad news.
Maybe I'm bad Santa too...
{WalMart free for over 24 months!}
Here's a novel idea.
I see that Torque Game Tool (TGE) has come out with a new version, looks very cool. I have often toyed with the idea of getting it. I have always held off because I am not that "geeky". As we can tell the PC and Mac version of the game is not a huge seller for them at the moment, otherwise we would have our updates. (Covering the gaming industry for an investment firm for few years you pick up some things) What can GG do to make money? What can we do to get our beloved game updated/improved?
Here is my solution. GG open sources TT. Heres the catch. You can only buy the open source TT version of TT if you have TGE. Not to mention the open source version would be between $30 to $50. So GG is looking to make $130 to $150 off a game that some consider dead, not bad. I think that they would probably get more than us TT freaks to buy, but others as well. Wouldn't other developers like to work on a project that has a following to make a name for themselves, or projects to there resume? I think it would be great to open up TT and add functions and game types. Imagine playing CTF with 2 flags. Having part of your team staying and blocking the goal while the other half is over trying to steal the other flag. Or you hit your "e" key and you have sniper zoom, or if there no admin and some jerk is ruining the game, call for a vote and boot em.
There could be a developer community and all that jazz. Heck just add another forum here and let people go NUTS! GG would control the released updates for the non geeks. I say give that job to 56k he doesn't seem to do much.
Again, I am non geek and do not know if what I dream of would be a possibility. Nor do I know if GG has the infrastructure to handle it, but damn it would be cool!
This rambling has been brought to you by your local drunk nut. Please don't forget to tip the waitress for me on your way out.
I am not that "geeky
Kinda like the pope isnt that catholic :)
B
How has the bundling of Marble Blast with new Macs affected it's user base? A new revision to keep the trouble makers from ruining games and then bundling it might be the best hope for TT.
Joe impresses me as a sharp cat and I doubt he would let TT die unless he saw no commercial future for it. Having said that, he may be learning from the TT community what it would take to polish TT for a mass audience. He has undoubtedly learned more about the biz since joining GG.
In Pokemalo I trust. %)
^ yeah BC you said it. Bundling more marbles will definently polish more biz.
%)
Seriously the current TT income stream is not enough for BT to warrant diverting resources to develop TT1.2
That should be a reason to update/refresh TT. The older a product gets, especially software, sales will decline. The only ways to reverse the trend are marketing campaigns or refresh/update the product. I doubt we will see a TT marketing campaign (hmmm...Super Bowl is coming up...great time for a funny TT commercial). It doesn't appear that BraveTree (or whoever controls the checkbook) is interested in working on a version 1.2 or even 2.0 for the Mac/PC/Linux community. We keep hearing they would like to update TT and reasons why they don't have time but not a hint that they really plan to make an update. They are focused on new, bigger, better games. I'm afraid they are just going to let TT stay as is until all revenue dries up and they can drop it all together.
Prove me wrong BraveTree. Please, prove me wrong.
Yes we have coders that did some awesome stuff already... Open code sounds good. Anything to bring us closer to a TT 1.2 - official or not! :P
Replay feature (with ability to save replay)
Yess I need that today I soared using a boost and landed one someone went all the way to the goal untouched in a (almost???)full server!
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Hey guys..
Sorry I have been so quiet. So, for those that don't already know, BraveTree was acquired by GarageGames last year in may, and all the BraveTree employess started working for GarageGames. Almost immediately after we were purchased, Microsoft wanted to put Marble Blast on the xbox 360. It was a pretty lucrative deal.. But unfortunately it required just about all hands on deck to get it done. It is done now (in certification) and the main bravetree crew is taking a much deserved break. Myself, I am heading up a team making a casual game for the downloadable market (I can't say what it is). The game I am working on is to make some $$$ for GG, and to strengthen our distribution partnerships.. Which will be good for GG as it will give us more freedom.
Note that both of these games temporarily stopped production on the racing game (code name dRACER), which is very fun to play.. Ask anyone who played the demo a year and a half ago... Before TT xbox, and the acqusition, and Marble Blast consumed all available time.
We want to get back to finishing *that* game first.. As having abother revenue stream will allow us to make choices that are not so tied to income.
We have been tasked out, and we still have a roadmap stuck to the wall for TT... When will we get to it? Don't know.. Many of the feature requests are things we want to do, and did not do on ThinkTanks 1 just because they are harder than you think to do elegantly.
On the GarageGames roadmap, some of the technology that we are talking about internally will hopefully be able to be used to add some of the features we want. As for an update.. We have a lot of the update done.. Well.. 80% done minus testing.. Which means we actually have like a few weeks worth of work to get it all together, test it.. And get it done.
We honestly have not had any extra time at all to attend to it.. The whole team is tasked out.. And after we get back from the new year, we have a bunch of important tasks that need to be attended to on the tech side of the TGE and I need to finish up the game I am working on.
As a 'indian' now, instead of a chief, I don't have as much say in what gets worked on next.. But I do have some say. ThinkTanks is not 'off' the list.. But it is not in the #1 spot either. From a business standpoint, we are in a growth phase where we need to be careful where we don't sink too much resource into something that is not going to pay off in the short term.. And I don't want to rush something out the door because we won't get the return on investment we need to get from it.. Nor do I want to compormise and hack in some features (especially when some of the 'wants' are part of the long term tech roadmap for TGE)
ThinkTanks is not dead.. It is just in hibernation. What would take it out of hibernation? If sales were to suddenly quadruple and stay steady.. It would help. If the xbox live arcade version were to sell more.. It would help.. If garagegames started making a lot of money through the sales of not just thinktanks, but other products.. It would help. The more money we have in the bank, the less careful we need to be about what we work on and the more we will be able to work on what we want to work on. Although GarageGames is growing, we are still small (under 30 people) working on 3 games and multiple engines and tools (and a website to sell and manage it all).
The long and short of it is that we need to sell copies of the game to make it worthwhile to work on it.. And ThinkTanks is an interesting animal as it did not flop (not by a long shot) but it certainly is not pulling in World of Warcraft like numbers.. In order to sell more to the normal game purchaser, we would need to make the game bigger, and we would need to make a more robust single player. This would not be a small undertaking.. In fact, it would be quite a large undertaking.. And it is one we cannot afford to undertake at the moment without it coming out half assed because we did not have the time and resoruces to do it right.
The open source idea is an interesting one. This is one I will present to everyone and see what they think... It probably won't happen, but it is worth mentioning that a few are interested. We might, if we can get it in there to support it well enough, open up the scripts more and include a mission editor version.. These are pretty big tasks though.. So no promises.
If a bona fide 'team' were to develop that wants to work on thinktanks (and had the coding and art chops) I would not be opposed to seeing if some sort of community quasi open source program could not be started..
If anyone is interested in making games, I would recommend both the TGE and the 2d variant, Torque 2d, or at least check out the scripting resources over at GarageGames. It should be noted that John Quigley, the guy who BraveTree hired (and did almost the entire conversion of TT to the XBOX) was a GarageGames community member who was not a professional game developer before he joined us.
I do want to thank the community for keeping the game alive.. And for being more patient than one could ask any person to be. It may seem like it's been a long time.. But for me, the past 4 years have gone by in the blink of an eye..
Ok, back to my cave.. I have things to do and I still need to go wrap gifts..
@ PokeMalo
Thank you, thank you.
I would love the excuse to buy TGE and work on TT. No bona fide coding or art for me, not a "pope" yet just a addict.
He breathed on it! Stop the presses! Declare a national holiday! XD
Thanks for the update. There's already a strong pool of TT developers existing for the following:
- maps
- objects
- mods
- skins
- scripts
- bots AI
- objects
1 guy could work 2-3 weeks to put a small update together from the EXISTING stuff... (Someone like 56k?)
Existing maps (there's at least 100) could be used for solo levels.
The coolest existing features could be universally integrated.
Thanks for the update Pokemalo! I have never had so much fun with a video game EVER! All the best wishes to you and the team.
-Rx
-Rx
Thanks for the Christmas present Pokemalo :)
Heh! Heheh! Heh! Heeeeeeens!
@Hugo at last count there were 317 maps (uh 318 I just made another one)
Of which probably 90-100 are good scrum maps (imho)
So I guess your math is right.....
I agrre this is one of the best games I have ever seen! But, don't seel yourselves short, the community has a huge role in why people play, stay, leave, amd come back. The game gets you in, and the people keep you coming back.
I would love to be involved in any of the mentioned above. Just mention the slightest hint and I'm there.
Nap
318 maps? Er that's a lot! %)
One thing that could be done is if someone (or a group of someones) were to compile all the really good maps.. Say, the top 30, and the top mods.. Say, the top 5.. And pack them up in a way where we can look at them easily. Same goes for skins and 'other' things.. And then get them all in a zip file and email them to us. We can stick that in and review them and see what would work and what would not.. And include this in our pile of 'stuff' that we are collecting.
Note that we already have some scripts, and some older maps and other things that we have already sectioned off for possible inclusion in any update, and anything that would assist us in paring down a list of possible 'extras', so we don't have to install and check out 300 maps.. Would be great.
Also, if someone wanted to go through all the 'suggestions' that have been posted and organize a concise and organized 'want' list, it would be helpful in determining what the community wants and what features are most desired.. In effect, creating a design doc for what the community thinks would improve the game.
Note that I don't have the time to organize this.. So this would have to be someone stepping up to do it. Also, no promises that we will get to any of this soon, but.. If people really want to help the process, that would be a good place to start.
Maybe a online archive of all maps, grouped into zip files by author? Possibilities, possibilities...
Better idea: Wiki pages, so people could add their own files. Long live open source!
Last edited: Sunday, December 25, 2005 at 7:13:30 AM
[b]Get the hint?]/b]
Yes, I will step up. :~)
Poke, can you and I correspond directlly so I can see what would be the easiest for you? (napalm_tt@yahoo.com) (Mail and IM)
I plan on posting the progress, working with the community and having the community direct this, as I want this to remain a relection of all in this community.
Last edited: Sunday, December 25, 2005 at 9:14:24 AM
Don't forget my Wiki idea. In case you're wondering how it works:
WikiPedia.
The tabs for editing are what gives it its power. It pools the knowledge of virtually everyone who reads it.
I'm thinking about something similar for features, like Poke said. But the downside is that you need admins. For example, what if someone scrawled "GEORGE BUSH IS A FAG!" on the page about him? Admin ownage.
Just my $.02.
How come we don't have a Wiki TT? Who's been sleeping on the puck?
Whack him in the head, the game's started. I'll do it, IF and ONLY IF someone can point me to somewhere I can get a free.net domain- no advertising.
I would like to see a built in "modding" section/tools/tutorials w/a literal step by step process, etc that even the most novice can understand/employ. I'm talking about those who don't have much OS experience..like me. Frankly, I've learned all that I know so far about computers, by playing w/some modding/editing, etc. But, I had to learn steps that so many vets out there take for granted as "easy". And for me, it was never easy. This would encourage/enable all interested in modding, to do just that. I think then we would see some major growth! I don't know if this is the right section to express this, but I will gladly repeat this via email, or whatever for you Nap, or who ever will take care of the "list".
Thanks alot Poke/Nap/All,
KC
Last edited: Sunday, December 25, 2005 at 11:44:51 AM
Would it be possible to add a section to PTT?
Add me to the "help/step-up" list.
I will gladly help with whatever I can.
I have knowlage of art, I use Paint Shop Pro. I can glady write something up about skins or whatever is needed, I know my in's and out's of ThinkTanks.
@ PokeMalo.
I can only concur with previous speakers; this is THE greatest and most addicting game I have EVER played. Excellent piece of genius. And I have a vast experience in games dating back to mid 80's on all kinds of systems.
This game has to not only survive, but also continue to flourish. It's a one-of-its-kind; one of those lovely little gems that you so rarely find, these days, in the jungle of all kinds of commercial mass-targeted games. I could continue and write a whole essay in the qualities of ThinkTanks, but I'll spare you from that and instead say something that just struck my mind, as a suggestion that you might want to consider.
Gaming trends these days seem to lean pretty much towards subscriptions. I think that is the key to why games such as World of Warcraft has rendered as big a success as it has. Have you pondered about doing the same with ThinkTanks? I think, while the current userbase isn't the biggest, we are amazingly dedicated to this game. Having participated in lots of various ThinkTanks leagues, I almost think it's a matter of a new religion, this...
While one could argue that ThinkTanks has already reached a state of perfection, the game does , in my opinion, need something new thrown into it. So, I wouldn't hesitate for a second, later on, to pay a small amount of subscriptional fee, if I knew that it would support and easen the continuation of further development.
Maybe it sounds a little radical, and maybe this would also bring in a whole other dimension, with some difficult aspects to solve (I know), but at least it could be something to poll the current userbase with, and see if we would be willing to consider paying some bucks every month. I would not be surprised if most of us would say yes.
That's my 2 swedish kronors.
Henrik Cederblad
- aka wiz
Last edited: Sunday, January 01, 2006 at 8:45:09 AM
@Pokemalo
Well... There have been many ideas everyone had that would be easy to implement if the C++ code supported it...
Like skin changers, water and many others :)
maybe if you made the base code and released an update that had the base code updated with all TGE functions it'd be better.... There are MANY things TGE supports but that were removed from TT...
That or open-sourcing more stuff... That'd SURELY get us more scripts!
You could also release some sort of tuturial to make new tanks... So all bigger hosters could team up and make more tanks for TT... Then including them in the tank selector and making an update with all them... Lets imagine this in the tank selector gui:
Lighttank, Mediumtank, Heavytank, Babyboss, Bosstank, Small Spaceship etc...
Last edited: Monday, January 02, 2006 at 2:22:06 PM
One idea that I've had for ages now, is the option to make the tanks' graphics (or vectors, that is) scalable. And then let the players compose their own tank out of various attributes, such as speed, turning speed, damage, armor, etc.
All these attributes would be represented by adjustable bars, measured in percentage %. So if you raise one attribute, you lower the others accordingly. (And certain graphical parts of the tank would swell or shrink depending on what you change.)
For example, if you make your tank sturdily armored, it will be really big, but won't move that fast.
One of the main issues that I have run into trying to get game hosters to host TT for us. Is that the "bots play on" and can eat a lot of cpu and hard drive space when no one is there. I know that that mammoth games had a server dedicated for us (using windows) and he said he found the game using all the cpu power. I have also noticed it a few times runnig linux and windows that it will eat cpu/harddrive when no is there. Would be nice if this was able to be patched. This way we can have game servers host for and Gararagegames get free advertising by games servers sayig they offer TT. Ultimately, don't know if this is because of the game or due to some other factor. I have heard others mention this as well though.
^They don't play on in the Mac version.
The biggest problem for Mac hosting seems to be having more than one game per CPU. When the game loads it uses enough of the CPU to affect other games running on that CPU. It's only a few seconds of lag but it would be nice to get rid of if possible.
Last edited: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 at 4:41:13 AM
@Pokemalo: I have put together a pack of maps I will send to you.
-Rx
@Pokemalo,
I have put together a pack of skins that I will send to you.
I can toss in my skins from ages ago, fwiw.
Who should I send them to?
You guys, believe me, I think this would be great and all for everyone, but just ponder this...
1. Open-sourcing the game:
ANY game developer who's worked on a game for a long time and has spent many hours and cash on it, will NEVER want to release his whole game open-source! Why would someone want someone to take all their secrets? For any game which has been eventually released open-source, the developer has had many pains... Take, for example, perhaps the most well-known mac-only (until 2000) game ever...
Pangea Software (a.k.a. Brian Greenstone), released his Nanosaur source code in 1999. There were just too many problems. People made and distributed windows versions of the game (which was illegal in the EULA for the source), they took out the need for registration code factor (a.k.a. Stealing 15 bucks every time someone played that copy of the game, AND if that wasn't enough, when Mac OS X rose, people ported and posted carbonized versions of the game, which the programmer did NOT want, due to lack of support and the fact that Nanosaur 2 was the product of "bringing something like Nanosaur over to Mac OS X". As for me personally, my big game, "Super Saint Rally", that I programmed, I will NEVER release the source code. I couldn't bear to see my game have MY code taken from it and added to Halo mod or something. Or have my artist's art that I OWN THE COPYRIGHT TO taken from my game and put in a WoW mod. Never, I'm telling you.
2. Adding 200+ skins, mod pack, expansion pack, etc.
NO! This will never happen. Do you remember when you downloaded the game fromShockwave.com or GarageGames.com? You probably looked at the progress bar, and said "Damn! Only 9MB for a game this good! This is fantastic!" I mean, I even E-MAILED my friend a copy once, it was such a tiny attachment. Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but if I'm downloading a 300MB game cause I think it looks cool, around 90MB finished, I'll just say "Man, that's a rip-off! I don't want to wait 2 hours to play a stinking shareware demo!!" I think one of the purposes of TGE is to make small, indie games. Small, indie games should NOT be over 100MB! If everything abvove was added to TT, it would be aroud 200 MB TO DOWNLOAD A GAME CALLED THINKTANKS!! I love games that are fun and only take a minute to download. That's what I really like about TT. Keep it small. Keep it FUN.
I don't think this is what PokeMalo was asking for.
Also, if someone wanted to go through all the 'suggestions' that have been posted and organize a concise and organized 'want' list, it would be helpful in determining what the community wants and what features are most desired.. In effect, creating a design doc for what the community thinks would improve the game.
Note that I don't have the time to organize this.. So this would have to be someone stepping up to do it.
We should organize this ans send everything to him 1 time.
Scripts, maps and additional suggestions (wish list.)
I don't care if it's me or someone else but I'm sure PokeMalo does not want to look through 25 emails trying to see who sent what.
Chilled, I don't agree with the your version of the size of the game. A demo is a demo and it should contain the stock maps but it should also include 1 or 2 modded maps just to show what else is available in the game.
The full version;
Personally I would rather wait 2 hours to get a game that I'll play for two years than download 100 10mb games that all end up in my trash can. The quality of the game is far more important than the size of the download.
The really slick way would be creat installers for all of the add on's, or have some sort of automatic updates in the GUI.
Let's pick someone to centralize the thoughts and ideas to send to PokeMalo.
Nap :~)
Good point on Open Source, CL.
I don;t agree with your second point though: I downloaded big files in the past (500mb) it does not matter to wait one hour when you're excited to play a new game. Or maybe a TT CD?
Thanks for doing the work guys :)
We should organize this ans send everything to him 1 time.
Scripts, maps and additional suggestions (wish list.)
I don't care if it's me or someone else but I'm sure PokeMalo does not want to look through 25 emails trying to see who sent what.
Yes yes!
I was just gona start using this thread as a sorta "idea dump". We (meaning Napalm) should start taking these ideas down and we (again Napalm) start getting the info in order. Not sure if a thread would do it justice or if we should have a seprate area. Maybe start with the thread then move on if needed.
@Chill
Open source is not always a bad thing. Look at games like Legends, Realm Wars and stuff like Starsiege tribes ( I thinks that open). Not sure how much TT is doing in revenue for GG now. Maybe open source would drive up revenue because of renewed interest and others buying TGE.
The quality of the game is far more important than the size of the download.
We're talking about thinktanks, right?
You betcha Mem.
Here's my suggestions:
1. Start a new thread, with a proper name. Preferably Napalm should do it (if he still wants to gather the ideas), so that he can update the header of the thread.
2. Everyone that has any suggestions for further improvement tosses them in (only the really serious ones).
3. In case needed; for instance, where certain non-marriageable ideas meet, I suggest using a (free) poll service, such as this one and simply have the community click on their prefered choices.
4. Summarize THE (one-time, one-bulk only) list of the community's collected ideas and send it to the Pokemalo'mon.
Last edited: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 at 9:40:07 AM
Excellent suggestion wiz- I know there are several threads that people have posted their wishes in. Some suggestions are good, others are pretty... Um... Lame.
It would help to gather all this into one place, and even prioritize the list through a survey.
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Fair question- since Bravetree was bought out by GG, haven't the ThinkTanks team been kept busy with games for Xbox?
I was looking for an update to fix the sound problem with Tiger, but nothing seems to be coming. It's been a while now. (Napalm reported the bug on April 29 in these forums) I hope we haven't been forgotten.
We have not forgotten about TT, we are at the moment distracted by other things (work mostly). We are still amazed that there is so much activity here and that after all this time.
- Pokemalo (Joe) on 12/8
I'm wiliing to take that at face value for now, but hope to see evidence (like a minor upgrade) that we're still important. TT is a great game, and still is well worth the $20.