Forums Index >> General >> While we're talking about religion...
Actually, there's no way for me to "try" God because he doesn't exist.
Prove that God doesn't exist.
Religion is for people
Faith is for God
Lemme explain
Religion is a tool of the people to both control the masses and attempt to explain the mysteries of our existence.
Faith comes from the heart and soul of each of us. No church or organized religion can instill in us this faith
Only reaffirm what we already know
Might I suggest some interesting and non religious reading material for you and anyone else who is interested
This was a life changer for me...
"Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch
I also would like to point out that I have never been to any church in my entire long life and that faith is both present and quite strong in me
I have read extensively and asked many questions. Both from the bible and many other sources
My mother never forced any doctrine upon us but did encouraged us to learn all we could and to make our own descisions
The Rooster has spoken
It would be rediculas to try and prove that something doesnt exsist.
Shall we try to prove that the easter bunny or santa clause doesnt exsist while we're at it?
If it isnt there - it isnt there.
Rooster I have read that book my sister gave it to me years ago to read good book but as you said just conformation of what I already new
Its your responsibility to prove a higher force exsists if you wish to do so.
Otherwise - we'll keep laughing at you !
XD
Sweetbaby how dare you say the easter bunny does not exsist. When I was younger I found easter eggs all over the house now thats prove lol
@sweet baby
Your a spaming idiot, go away, you'll be banned soon enough.
Prove that there isn't an elephant in the trunk of my car.
What about now?
Maybe he was just hiding before.
What about now? You're relying on past evidence.
Did I ever tell you that my heartfelt definition of "elephant" includes love, peace, order, mystery, and a spare tire?
Can you see how stupid this is? It's up to me to prove that there IS an elephant in the trunk of my car. You can't prove a negative.
Umm ya you might want to wait a bit. I am still "talking" with her.....
Excellent Monica !!!
@ Mon
True, point was you can't prove or disprove God exist. So what do you believe?
My point was, when someone brings up a positive proposition (i.e. There is a God, or There is an elephant in the trunk of my car), you assume it's false until a person can prove that it's true. I don't believe in a God. As in, I don't know if there is a God, but for right now accept the assumption that the God concept is false because it is a positive proposition and has not been proven.
So can I not take the opposite viewpoint?
The fun part is this we can go back and forth about this. Link to many websites for and against. I have had this conversation many times and it has always boiled down to this. Look at this information in front of you question, question, question. Only you can find your answer.
The truth is certainly hard to reach. Fortunately the false is easier to discern. Taking the bible literally is surely blasphemous and humiliating to the very idea of divinity.
Look around at the order of the Universe and tell me that God does not exist. This did not just happen from some big bang. My gosh it is far more plausible to believe in devine guidance than random chance.
Lets take the simple premise that scientist would have us believe that all life evolved from a single cell organsism that flourished in the ocean. Well where did the Ocean come from that allowed that single cell to thrive and mutate. Even if you believe that this cell mutatation did take place over billions of years how could that single cell have mutated in to both a cat and a tree.
I put my money on God. Science has not come anywhere close to explaining anything otherwise.
For those that want to understand my intellectual basis, I have an undergraduate degree in Computer Science and a Masters degree in Finance. I have an enginerring/scientific educational backgroud an I just dont see the big bang theory as plausible
Put this in your pipe and smoke it!
Invisible Pink Unicorns, Santa Claus and God
by Rich Deem
Introduction
One of the most common objections to the existence of God comes from arguments about the existence of Santa Claus and invisible pink unicorns. Although it is not possible to prove absolutely the non-existence of Santa Claus, most people cease to believe in his existence by age 10. Although the existence of Santa Claus has not been disproved, the weight of evidence suggests that he does not exist. Likewise, although we cannot prove invisible pink unicorns do not exist, we tend to reject their existence, since none have ever been detected. Shouldn't the same logic apply to the existence of God?
God created by mankind?
Most skeptics believe that humans invented God as a means of comfort against an uncertain world that is filled with peril and disappointment. However, if people were to have invented the God of Christianity, it is unlikely that it would be the demanding God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is described as holy1 - without sin and without the ability to commit sin.2 The holiness of God is described as being above anything that humans can attain, such that no human can stand before Him as holy.3 Behaving more morally upright than most other people is not sufficient to escape the punishment of the God of the Bible.4
It also seems unlikely that people would believe in the existence of a being who is known not to exist. For example, most of us believe in Santa Claus as small children, but give up that belief by age 10.5 People do not believe in false things, even if those things make them feel better. If people routinely believed in things just to make them fell better, we would all continue to believe in the existence of Santa Claus.
In addition to the above problems, believing a lie contradicts the beliefs and teachings of the Bible. In fact, Luke, in the introduction to his gospel, says that he has carefully investigated everything so that the truth may be known.6 Christians are told to believe and practice only truth,7 and warned against believing and practicing lies.8 So, the idea that they would violate their conscious and beliefs just to feel better makes no sense.
Invisible pink unicorns?
Can we determine the existence/non-existence of invisible pink unicorns? Actually, the answer is "yes." Unicorns would be pink if they reflected pink electromagnetic radiation (i.e., light). However, in order to be invisible, the unicorns would reflect no electromagnetic radiation. Therefore, the term "invisible pink unicorn" is self contradictory. Therefore, we know absolutely that they could not exist. I don't know who invented the term "invisible pink unicorns," but they were obviously deficient in their physics education.
However, for the sake of argument, let's change the term and drop the "pink" part. Is it possible to determine whether or not invisible unicorns exist somewhere in the universe? Technically, it would be very unlikely that any organism would be invisible. The only reasonable chemical basis for living organisms in this universe is carbon-based life. This would ensure that unicorns would always be visible. Although possible that unicorns might be invisible due to being made of anti-matter, such existence would be problematic, since their interaction with ordinary matter would result in their immediate and spectacular destruction. Could unicorns be made of exotic matter? While possible, there is no evidence from physics that any creatures could be made of exotic matter. At present, it is possible to detect exotic matter only indirectly through particle physics and through its ability to bend light (only detectable through gravitational lensing of distant galaxies). At this point, we would be unable to detect a unicorn made of exotic matter. So, although we can be fairly certain that invisible unicorns do not exist in the universe, we could not take the strong aunicornist stance.
Is it possible that pink unicorns might exist somewhere in the universe? As of today, we don't know if life exists outside of our Solar System. No rocky planets have been discovered outside of our Solar System, although the ability to easily detect such planets will not be available until later this decade. Some scientists believe that life is common throughout the universe, while others think that all life or only advanced life is rare in the universe. The origin of life by naturalistic means seems extremely improbable. In addition, the earth seems to exhibit unusual design, since the existence of tectonic activity on such a small planet for such a long period of time is probably the result of an extremely unlikely collision early in its history. Without tectonic activity, the earth would be a waterworld, since continents would not form. Advanced life (beyond fish) cannot exist on such a planet.
Atheism requires that abiogenesis (a naturalistic origin of life) is at least possible, if not likely, and that habitable planets are common throughout the universe. Such a scenario, if true, would make it likely that pink unicorns do exist somewhere in the universe. Therefore, an atheist would be illogical to assume a strong aunicornist stance. The unicorn argument as an argument against the existence of God fails logically, since it is not possible to definitively show that unicorns do not exist somewhere in the universe.
God vs. Unicorns and Santa Claus
Is the existence of God comparable to the existence of Santa Claus or unicorns? According to tradition, Santa Claus is a man who lives at the North Pole on planet earth. Explorers and satellite images have failed to detect the dwelling place of Santa Claus, so we can be fairly certain that he does not exist. Since the polar ice cap is likely to melt within the next 100 years, we will have further evidence that nobody actually lives at the North Pole.
The existence of invisible pink unicorns has been discussed above. The existence of such creatures has been hypothesized to occur within our universe. However, the God of the Bible is transcendent to the universe, since the universe cannot contain Him.9 The Bible says that no one can see God in His glory,10 since He is invisible.11 God is a non-physical being.12 In addition, God created the entire universe,13 including time itself,14 which did not exist prior to God creating it. Both Santa Claus and unicorns are contingent beings, whereas God is non contingent. Therefore, to make an analogy between God and either Santa Claus or invisible pink unicorns is logically flawed from the outset.
No evidence for God's existence?
Skeptics love to claim that there is no proof or evidence that any kind of God actually exists. However, such claims represent mere hand waving to avoid critically examining the evidence. I was raised as an agnostic, but became a deist in a secular college (University of Southern California) as a result of my training in biological sciences. It was obvious to this honors student that the "scientific" explanation for the origin of life was completely unreasonable. Since those days (the early 1970's) the evidence contradicting a naturalistic origin of life has become much stronger. Even more compelling than the evidence against abiogenesis is the evidence for the design of the universe. The scientific evidence shows irrefutably that the universe had a beginning. In contrast, atheism would predict that the universe would be eternal. In fact, this belief was prevalent among atheists until the evidence against the steady state theory became overwhelming last century. Although it is possible that the universe could arise by itself, the level to which it is fine tuned is contrary to this hypothesis. In fact, the degree of fine tuning is up to one part in 10120.
Further evidence for divine design can be found in our own species. We are the only species of mammal that exhibits consciousness, the ability to appreciate art, and the ability to make moral judgments.
Conclusion
The idea that God is a made-up concept to soothe our fears makes no sense, since we reject the existence of other made-up figures that might, likewise, make us feel better. A comparison between the existence of God (a non-contingent being) and the existence of Santa Claus or invisible pink unicorns (contingent beings) fails on many levels, not the least of which is that their fundamental natures (non-physical vs. Physical) are vastly different. The idea that there is no evidence to support the existence of God is clearly false. The evidence was clear enough for me to convert from agnosticism to deism in the absence of efforts by theists. Anthony Flew, a lifelong proponent of atheism recently became a deist on the basis of evidence for design. In subsequent interviews, Flew stated that he "had to go where the evidence leads." Philosophical arguments like invisible pink unicorns are great ways to avoid examining evidence, but such an approach is ultimately dishonest.
Wow lets just say god and good lives within all of us. Whether your religious or a atheist.
Fancy typing out your OWN opinions rather than copying and pasting someone elses?
44 your #4 is against you too...
how did the universe just be? I mean if God can't just be then the universe can't just be right?
the Bible teaches the big bang. (although some refuse that)
"My parent's brought me up believing in santa clause because it was convenient and useful for me to believe so... Kept me happy but doesn't necessarily mean they were telling me the truth."
Yeah but you stop believing in Santa
And actually its inconvenient. Your kid could end up thinking you stupid or that you can't be trusted.
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
And you can't just slip out of this saying that God is everywhere. We've searched everywhere on this earth and found no God. We've searched human beings. If you can't come up with a physical definition of God then you cannot prove he exists.
Let's have a hypothetical situation here.
I say that Santa Claus exists on another dimension. We discover new dimensions. Meanwhile I just keep pushing my Santa Claus concept out on higher and higher dimensions. People used to think that God was in space. We've found no God-dust of any kind. You're going to push him farther and farther out until you say he just can't be found by science. But science is the only tool we have to look at this world (that's the friggin definition of science--observing and learning about your environment/the universe). Therefore God is an imaginary concept and/or false.
I'm not saying that God exists or not, but religion can be traced back to the root of almost any war. Existant or not, God is a lethal weapon that anyone can use. Want dough? Be a televangelist. Want to kill a country? Become a high-ranking religious official, then say that the other country's saying that God is on their side, while "really", it's on yours. Sounds a bit hypocritical, but hey, it works! Want proof? History is proof. Pandora's box was given to her by Zeus in Greek mythology... Makes you think.
Dull point
My point was, when someone brings up a positive proposition (i.e. There is a God, or There is an elephant in the trunk of my car), you assume it's false until a person can prove that it's true.
The only reason you say its false until you prove it is because elephants are VERY unlikely to be in your trunk. While the evidence of god is.
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
I like candy.
Do you believe that? Well you better not! You said you won't believe something until proven right or wrong!
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Didnt see you post yet.
If you can't come up with a physical definition of God then you cannot prove he exists.
He was only physical for 33 years... Again my candy statement.
"And you can't just slip out of this saying that God is everywhere. We've searched everywhere on this earth and found no God. We've searched human beings. If you can't come up with a physical definition of God then you cannot prove he exists.
Let's have a hypothetical situation here.
I say that Santa Claus exists on another dimension. We discover new dimensions. Meanwhile I just keep pushing my Santa Claus concept out on higher and higher dimensions. People used to think that God was in space. We've found no God-dust of any kind. You're going to push him farther and farther out until you say he just can't be found by science. But science is the only tool we have to look at this world (that's the friggin definition of science--observing and learning about your environment/the universe). Therefore God is an imaginary concept and/or false."
Who said he was another dimension?
Your hypothetical situation sounds a lot like a section of science I know a lot of atheists use to determine their existence
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Oh yeah... If you use science you will come to my conclusion...
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
In truth there is no proof that God exists or doesnt exist. It is all based upon faith and hope. For instance, just because you cant see something doesnt mean it's there. Just like we cant reall "see" the air we breathe, but we know its there. Im not saying that God is or isnt there (and im Catholic), but I do believe there is a God, or at least a greater being. How else would the big bang have started, or other wonderful things in the world. No believe or religion can techniqually be wrong since I believe that they all just lead to God. We all just have our own way of showing thanks. Such as the morals and values that we learn as young children. They stick with us and so does hope. We are all allowed to have our own belief or views on things and we can. Only when you are open to other view points and other people's ideas, will you be able to see from their point and from your own and be able to form your own opinion based on that.
Their only isn't proof because science can't PROVE anything you can only come to conclusions with it.
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
... I stand by all I've said.
-walks off picking nose-
Can anyone prove to me that Dan McDonald really exists
Once again..... Atheists have Proven God Does Not Exist. Right?
Your candy statement? No I won't believe it, especially if you're going to make a worldwide affair of it, but PEOPLE HAVE TAKEN SURVEYS, DONE RESEARCH, AND FOUND THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE A SWEET TOOTH, THEREFORE WE CAN COMFORTABLY CONCLUDE THAT THE AVERAGE HUMAN HAS A SWEET TOOTH.. People say that God is in heaven. But if there is not another dimension, then Heaven would have to be in the universe, right? Well, the most powerful telescopes imaginable have found no evidence of heaven anywhere. NO ONE HAS YET FOUND ANY GOD OR ANY NEED FOR A GOD. THIS GOD CONCEPT IS EXTREMELY UNLIKELY. How much CAPS LOCK do I have to do to make this get through your head? There is no evidence of God, no "God-dust", nothing global or universal. Just a bunch of people seeing Mary's image in a sewage stain.
Last edited: Sunday, May 28, 2006 at 2:30:55 PM
GOD IS NOT PHYSICAL.
And do you know how large the universe is anyway???
who cares about mary?
and who said he is in the universe???
btw the universe stops.
and you wouldn't know what god dust would look like.
Does anyone have any logical arguments for God's existence/nonexistence?
My beliefs have been fluctuating and I need some solid proofs here before I make a decision.
Thanks all.
I guess you made your decision so you can lock this thread right?
And your wrong too.
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Yeah, lock the thread. It was dead a while ago.
You're wrong.
^
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See? I can say it too. And with correct spelling. I guess that means I win. Heh.
Lol. I doubt that God exists, based on J 's arguments. The fundies are making fools out of themselves, and nobody's responded to my post about God being Pandora (or, in this case, Jesus)'s box, so I guess that means I'm on to something.
I think that quite possibly bloop is god. Urging us to invoke our own opinions instead of copying and pasting.....standing by His convictions in the face of all the opposition......metaphorically spreading His own god dust by picking His nose.....think about it.
Well if its an opinion I agree with then im not going to type it all up again now am i.... Seeshh
@Monica
We are wasting to much time trying to help you, just go and do what you like. Your only a kid, what do you know.
Nice. Insult me with my age. That's really mature of you. Locky locky!
It wasnt an insult, its the truth. You havnt lived enough, or gone through enough to make such comments as "God doesnt exsist" blah blah blah...
Jay--you have NO IDEA what I've gone through and what I'm going through. My brain is MY OWN, and there is a TON of stuff that I don't post here because 1) I don't have enough time, or 2) I'd rather post it in other forums. Don't be condescending over the Internet. Make your words soft--you may have to eat them later.
Dont give me that, every day I talk to people as young as or a little bit older than you who say to me that their best friends commited suicde right infront of them. That theyve been raped so many times they cant remember what the person looked like, and a 13 yearold girl who has a 2 year old child who cant afford to keep her and have parents who provide no support. And theres the usual physical abuse from parents as to be expected.... And all these things and much more! Your right Monica I dont know exsactly what youve been through..... But to be honest it doesnt sound like youve been through half as much as people your age ok.
...I still don't see what all this BS about how old a potential theologist has to be has to do with the existance or nonexistance of God. In a democracy like Britain, the US, or Canada (not trying to leave out too many people), it's generally accepted that every person, no matter WHAT their age, has a right to free speech and expression. And besides, this is the Internet, so get used to it- there'll always be someone trying to sharpen their debate skills on a tough topic. That's out cases.
Still the condescending tone there Jay. Did you realize that only nine months ago I could have DIED if not for the people on PTT? It was awful. And no matter what you may say, I have enough experience to think for myself and decide for myself. The human brain is the most complex piece of matter in the entire universe. Can I not judge for myself what is right? (PGG, this is your cue.)
Let's close with a quote by Ingersoll:
When I became convinced that the universe is natural, that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my
brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison
crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles became dust. I was no
longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space. I
was free--free to think, to express my thoughts--free to live my own ideal, free to live for myself and those I loved,
free to use all my faculties, all my senses, free to spread imagination's wings, free to investigate, to guess and dream
and hope, free to judge and determine for myself... I was free!
Grrr it seems we have wondered off the subject of this frigging thread lol, is this going to get locked or not? Not that it really matters....arnt you having fun Monica? I know I am lol
Nice comeback. But anyway--locky locky, as I have been saying since yesterday.
Be glad I deleted what I was going to say, otherwise this little brawl would of gone on for much longer.... But im bored of it now, I'll have to find something else to amuse me. Fun talking to you Monica! :) I hope you dont take any of this too personal lol, See you in game XD
This thread has been locked
Does anyone have any logical arguments for God's existence/nonexistence?
My beliefs have been fluctuating and I need some solid proofs here before I make a decision.
Thanks all.