Take a look at this video of soldiers beating Iraqi youths. Two years, nine months and twelve days since "mission accomplished"....freedom is definitely on the march.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/02/12.html#a7125

Bring 'em home.

Sounds like the devil himself narrating that scene. Pretty bad. I'd like to do the same thing to the ass talking in that vidio.

There is no justification for a man beating a kid like a man.

That is a example of poor leadership.

The platoon leader should be charged.

Nasty business.

You better have a good reason for doing something like that...which means, war should be the last option. Cause that, my friends, is what war always looks like. Anyone who enters lightly into war is either naive, or sadistic.

You wanna war? You better be willing to beat some kids, assualt some women, and kill some babies.

Otherwise, give peace a chance.

44 yes, this is totally wrong to beat youths. What do you think caused them to stoop so low? Is there an explanation for that?

No legitimate explanation, in my mind. I bet you got one, though. I can almost imagine, but I'd prefer not to read it.

Last edited: Monday, February 13, 2006 at 3:58:26 AM

Anyone who attempts to explain this away needs to be next in line for a beating.

I was refering to the troops. There is NO excuse to beat youths. What caused the troops to stoop so low. Are they under too much stress, are they flat out criminals? Are they threatened by these youths in any way?

BTW, those troops were from UK, does that stand for United Kingdom or University of Kentucky? %)

_{(At least they're no tipping cows and burning cornfields celebrating a win over Cincinnatti)}

Let's suppose that the kids were throwing rocks towards the solders, which is one of the dumbest things to do in war area. What should the solders do? Go tell them it's wrong to throw rocks. Please don't do it anymore. Ok? Small spanking were the right punnishment for rock throwing, thought, it's always wrong to kick between the legs.

I love this song...says it all...

Artist: Mark Schultz
Song Title: Letters from war lyrics
Click for sample of song

She runs to the mailbox
On that bright summers day
Found a letter from her son
In a war far away

He spoke of the weather
And good friends that he'd made
Said I'd been thinking 'bout dad
And the life that he had
Thats why I'm here today
And that the end he said
You are what I'm fighting for
It was the first of the letters from war

She started writing
(Chorus)
Your good and your brave
What a father that you'll be someday
Bring him home
Bring him safe

She wrote everynight as she prayed

Late in December
A day she'll not forget
Oh her tears stained the paper
With every word that she read

It said I was up on a hill
I was out there alone
When the shots all rang out
And bombs were exploding
And thats when I saw him
He came back to me
And though he was captured
A man set me free
And that man was your son

He asked me to write to you
I told him I would oh I swore
It was the last of the letters from war

And she prayed he was living
Kept on believing
and wrote every night just to say

(Chorus)

Then two years later
Autumn leaves all around
A car pulled in the driveway
And she fell to the ground
And out stepped a captain
Where her boy used to stand

Said mom I'm following orders
From all of your letters
And I've come home again
He ran into hold her
And dropped all his bags on the floor
Holding all of her letters from war

Bring him home
Bring him home
Bring him home

I'm emotionally touched... I'm not sure whether it's the song that pai showed that touched me, or if it is just the fact I want to rip the balls off of the jackass narrorating the beatings.

@Tankster
lol....

@44
While there is no good enough reason to ever treat another human being the way these soldiers did in the video clip, we all must understand the horrors that they have witnessed that provokes otherwise decent men into committing atrocities.
These same innocent looking youths could be the very same thugs that took shots at these soliders or be the ones who planted roadside bombs! These soliders have seen countless "kids" launch missiles and grenades at them and civilians ad nauseum... So of course they have a little hostility and pent up rage to release. However wrong it is, it is what it is when it comes to war! Judge not a man unless you've walked in his shoes, or in this case, combat boots.

Last edited: Monday, February 13, 2006 at 1:01:23 PM

The media is really in need of news. They come up with these kind of zero value news and start to spread it which makes things only worse. If they truly want to show how bad the world is they should start with Chechens and China's prison just name few.

Neat expression!

This indeed is non-news - this is just sensationalism feeding the media circus. This is like watching nasty videos from some websites I won't mention here since kids are reading this... (R*****.com is a well-known one for those who know what I'm talking about...)

When you have 150,000 men in uniforms somewhere, you're bound to have sadistic jerks. Even in peacetime tragic stuff happens all the time.

I haven't watched the video since I won't learn anything - it will only confirm the obvious, that there's all extremes in human nature, that war is disgusting, etc.

Of course I do not condone the Invasion, occupation, etc. I'm just saying jerks are jerks, at home or abroad.

It's not just men in uniforms or wars that bring out this behavior. The video clips of the youths in Florida beating a homeless man to death prove that point.

I read up on it some more. These kids were pelting the soldiers with rocks. I dont agree with the troops response on this one. If their life was threatened then I could see why they might rough them up.

Good point Triv.

Pai, great points made as well.

MJ: Now That is news. These inner city kids are a product of our socialist system that is dealing with them. They are slaves to the welfare system that is supported by the left.

Reminded Boston Massikcore started the same way citizens throwing rocks at armed troops and well the rest is history....

^^^^^^@stinkyfingers:

Yes, you are so right, this is what war looks like. Don't believe the war lite hype coming from Bush and co. War is brutal and expensive economically and socially. War comes at a high price, this is it. Oh, yeah, and the 30,000 to 100,000 dead. Imagine, your grandkids will be paying those guys' salary plus interest.

End the occupation
Stay out of Iran
Peace
Pug

^Occuapation? You mean liberation. We are now just a supporting cast.

If they truly wanted to show how bad the world is they would reveal the torture and murder without trial of innocent people in guantanamo bay

... I say innocent because these people have not been tried, innocent until proven guilty. Bush and blair are warcriminals!

^ @KentuckyKilBlly: you are so, so right. We liberated a sh*t-load of oil. The people? Those kids getting kicked in the balls? Just collateral damage in the struggle to protect Bush's friends in the energy industry. We also "liberated" $$billions from you and me and our children's children so it could flow into Cheney's bank account via his stock options in Halliburton. And where DID that money go anyway?
If you were sitting in a cold apartment in with no power, no water, can't walk to the store, kids come home beat to shit, would you feel liberated?
Those kids that got beat? They are now all potential suicide bombers. Good one Tony!

I did not condone the troops methods of punishment. The incident was isolated and the majority of the Iraqi people like having us there. The oil? I dont believe there is much being refined right now from Iraq. Stay out of Iran, just take out the reactor. XD

@HB: hmmm, I keep trying to get into that site but all I get is:

XD

Rx, since you just turned 18, email me and I will provide you the link. ;)

First off, a little something about the Boston Massacre . The story I heard this summer while on a tour laid it out as an accident. The mob was pestering the Regulars, first with snowballs then with rock filled snowballs. In the meantime, they were ringing the church bell which usually was a call to come put out a fire. The story goes that someone eventually yelled "Fire!", the Regulars thought it was an order to fire and they did. Of course, it was a great propaganda opportunity to exploit in order to condemn English tyranny. Seems that message is still making the papers, even today.

As far as the video goes, I did hear at the 0:30 second point what could be a gun shot. There's no way of telling who fired, but I did hear the narrator later exclaim, "You little ^&$%&, shoot as us! You little #$%$, die!" Its hard to tell what the locals had been doing and for how long. It does seem like this wasn't the first instance of the "children" being "naughty" and the narrator was quite pleased to see his tormentors finally get what he felt they deserved. I don't think he's particularly sadistic on any given day, but was venting what could have been months of frustration and anger.

I remember an interview we shot recently that compared Iraq veterans' experience of PTSD to Viet Nam veterans' since they are always a target, never knowing who the enemy is and susceptable to ambush at any moment. I'm sure the political pressure of the situation is adding to soldiers' stress as well.

So do I think the "kids" deserved what they got? Probably not, but I understand why the soldiers would do what they did. Let's not pretend we'd never do the same thing in their situation. Also remember, it looks like a couple of squads file past near the end and no one bothered to interfer. Maybe they understood better than we do what was going on.

^^@Kentucky: oh we'll be staying out of a ground war with Iran. Everyone in the world knows we'd get our assed seriously kicked in Iran, even if we win! Iraq was beat-down by sanctions, it's military pretty much destroyed in Gulf War I, the people hated their evil leader and most wanted him out, and look what happened: Apocalypse Again! Iran would be a wholesale slaughter for US troops. They have real weapons, not just a few scuds, lots and lots of cash from high oil prices, a motivated and armed people and they have the means to shut down the strait of Hormuz, through which most mid-east oil must pass. On March 19th or 20th, when we bomb Iran, be prepared for $5 per gallon gas as a starting price, going up from there. The Iranians will shut down production, as will Venezuela and then the Russians are gonna be really, really pissed off. The Chinese, who now own our economy by the way, will go ballistic and they have the means to flush our dollar down the trading floor toilet. Do we really know who our friends are?

Hey, who got us into this situation, anyway?

Yes, you are absolutely right K, we really did not go into Iraq for the oil; we went in because we did not want Sadaam to trade oil for Euros, thus devaluing the US dollar. http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/petrov011606.html

Great debate, btw.

Pug

If we go to fight iran can anyone say

DRAFT TIME.

You all have fun fighting a just war.

Hey Pug, Can you be more specific with Iran's real weapons? I hope it doesn't happen, but if we go into Iran it won't be much more different than Iraq. Their air defenses and scuds will be blown to bits before we even set foot on their soil.

Yes, indeed these are scary times. I don't think most people (excluding all of us) realize how dangerous of a situation we are in. I do believe we need to face up to Iran or else there wont be anyone left to pay $5 per gallon of gas. How do we do it though is the question.

Interesting link Pugwash.

Fo Fo's title suggests that this might be the soultion to all the conflicts:

_{Oh wait, the title says minds? Well then, I guess there's no hope.}

Why do we need to face up to Iran, Kentucky? Do we need to face up to China, Russia, Israel, Pakistan, India? All of them have nukes. Just because Bush says Iran is an evil empire? Are you/we gonna fall for the WMD lie again? Bush and Co. Are using this fear to both gain power and enrich their friends. Is such fear justified? How would we know, they are all so secretive. But I am getting to the point where I don't believe anything anymore. Like this whole Abu Musab al-Zarqawi thing. Who is this guy? Does he even exist? I have hear/read at least 10 different stories about how his top aid/commander has been captured/killed/wounded/whatever. How many "top" aids does this guy have? And they can't capture him? And he only has one leg? WTF?

For a comprehensive look at the situation: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HA31Ak02.html Sorry, it's long as hell and covers a lot of territory, including speculation (that's all we have, right?) on Iranian weapons and what cards they may hold.

And the problem is, "facing up to Iran" may very well turn into facing up to an entire region. And we may have to face up to Europe, China, Japan, India, Russia too; not militarily, of course, but politically and economically. What are the consequences of taking on Iran? What could diplomacy do? Dude, I sure don't know the answers. But I do beleive this is not about Nukes, it's about oil. Not that we are going to go in and steal it but that we want to maintain control over the global economy of oil.

In the meantime we could also stop taking out democratically elected governments like we did in Chile, Haiti, Venezuela (failed), Bolivia (to come) Palestine (to come). And we could stop becoming a torture state.

Thanks Pug. Have you watched the news Re: Iran? Fox, Cnn whatever, they are enriching uranium and have called for Isreal to be blown off the map. What more do you need to hear? Im biting my tongue here.... Peace KKB

Why can't we all just do what the mime does? Shut up and love eachother...

^ Yeah, that would be nice...no one ever does it though... :[
only two more years...two more years...

56k, I've been enjoining you to do just this: shut up and adore me! %)
THAT'S IT I'M RUNNING FOR PREZ IN 2008~!
^{will I have to give up drinking?}

Last edited: Friday, February 17, 2006 at 7:28:39 AM

Imo side with (gasp!) KKB on this notion - a nuclear iran is a ghastly concept. The other nuclear countries pug lists are NOT state sponsors of terrorism...but iran is. Given their support of terrorist organizations, I'd say iran poses a bigger threat than iraq did. The president of iran is a nut case and has called for the distruction of another sovereign country.

Having said that, I acknowledge that the president of our country is likewise a nut case and poses as big a threat to world security. Likely he does not have the temperment to handle this situation without F-ing it up. Nor does he have any claim to the moral high ground...hopefully he realizes that this situation calls for an (gasp!) international consensus.

Once again our president finds himself...out of his depth...a familiar feeling. Lets hope he doens't respond in an all too familiar, all too insular fashion...pure gut reaction influenced by blind ideology and reinforced by like minded, ideological courtisans.

From an earlier and equally ill concieved US incursion...

Draft Dodger Rag By Phil Ochs

G G#/A
I'm just a typical American boy from a typical American town
D7 G
I believe in God and Senator Dodd and keeping old Castro down
G# A
And when it came my time to serve I knew better dead than red
D7 G
But when I got to my old draft board, buddy, this is what I said:

G
Sarge, I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
G#/A
And I always carry a purse
D7
I got eyes like a bat, my feet are flat, and my asthma's
G
getting worse
G# A
O think of my career, my sweetheart dear, and my poor old
invalid aunt
D7
Besides, I ain't no fool, I'm a goin' to school, and I'm
G
working in a defense plant

I've got a dislocated disc and a racked up back
I'm allergic to flowers and bugs
And when the bombshell hits, I get epileptic fits
And I'm addicted to a thousand drugs
I got the weakness woes, and I can't touch my toes
I can hardly reach my knees
And if the enemy came close to me
I'd probably start to sneeze
...............................(chorus)
I hate Chou En Lai, and I hope he dies,
but one thing you gotta see
That someone's gotta go over there
and that someone isn't me
So I wish you well, Sarge, give 'em Hell
Yeah, Kill me a thousand or so
And if you ever get a war without blood and gore
Well I'll be the first to go
...........................................(chorus)

Notes:
Chords supplied by Jim Lesses
The liner notes for this song on the album I Ain't Marching Anymore read:

In Vietnam, a 19-year-old Viet Cong soldier screams that Americans should leave his country as he is shot by a government firing squad. His American counterpart meanwhile is staying up nights thinking of ways to deceptively destroy his health, mind or virility to escape two years in a relatively comfortable army. Free enterprise strikes again.
......Last modified 31 Mar 02 by trent.. http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/draft-dodger-rag.html

Perhaps you kiddies should begin tuning yer guitars.

...granpa sluggy who was in & out before that one got nasty..

Last edited: Friday, February 17, 2006 at 10:29:00 AM

^ believe it or not am in agreement to some extent. Must be the Winter Oympics coverage.

I'm actually more worried about the Israeli response to Iran's sabre rattling. While most of the civilized world only remembers the Holocaust once a year, Israel reminds itself on a daily basis what happened in WWII.

France took the gloves off with Iran last night...this is actually a serious turn of events. France (along with Germany and the UK) has been a key component of the moderation this situation has seen to this point. Sliding down a slippery slope we are......

@ Pug

Were this about oil it wouldn't be happening...have access to all the oil we need in Iraq were it about that. This has been going on...on and off....for a couple of thousand of years. Only difference is now we can watch it unfold in real time....

Uh, oil?? Perhaps not.

As I recall Dubbya is a Born-again Xtian & an Apocolyptic!! He has asserted that his occupancy of the White House is at God's behest. With nary a hint of humor, I submit that our presence in the Middle East has less relationship to petroleum than it does the Plains of Meggido and the Book of Revelation (Apokolyps in the original Greek)

Note:
How to establish a Fascist state in Central North America.
01) Keep the electorate superstitious, only innumerate and marginally literate
02) Gain control of or bamboozle the Fourth Estate
03) Dominate Congress with corrupt self-serving corporate lackeys.
04) Corrupt the electoral process so that an incompetent is appointed to the presidency.
05) Alter the electoral process to make it more vulnerable to fraud.
06) Take advantage of a terrorist atrocity to invade an uninvolved weak Middle East dictatorship & label that assault a war.
07) Prey on the fear, superstition & predjudice of your narow-minded, short-sighted constituency so they will continue to support you.
08) Silence the opposition.
09) Politicize science.
10) Invoke non-existant dictatorial powers to so that you may ignore the Constitution with impunity.
11) Stack the Supreme Court to reinterpret the Constitutiion in your favor.
12) Lie - Whenever - About Whatever - To Whomever Lie and keep right on lying. If your mendacity is exposed Lie - Fabricate lies about your political opponents - Repeat lies about the bias of the Media - Lie about what you have done - Lie about what you intend to do - Lie about the qualifications of your political appointees - Lie about the lies you have told and lie about those lies.

Take heed of the exhortation of the stage manager, " Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain "

...granpa sluggy who is sick to death of those who trade their liberty for a promise of security that transparently masks the spreading cancer of Fascism.

That reads like a "how to book" by leo strauss , father of the neo-con movement.

Last edited: Friday, February 17, 2006 at 12:20:42 PM

In this case you have the neo-con (Cheney et al) and the messianic (bush). The message (strauss by way of cheney) and the messenger (jesus (faith) by way of bush).

Nice pairing, and exactly as leo would have played the hand.

Very cynical misuse of democracy.

Last edited: Friday, February 17, 2006 at 12:19:36 PM

The thing about accusing Bush or any political Christian of wanting to bring about the Apocalypse always seems absurd to me. That said, the article Pugwash linked discussing "The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse" definitely passed through my "Bible-filter" and gave me the willies.

@Rabban Straw Man Rab.

Apocolyptics are are not attempting to bring about the Apocolypse - it is part and parcel of their faith that this is the time of the Apocolypse, they see themselves merely as participants in it. Let us not even consider the category of "self fullfilling prophecy".

The primary danger of choices based upon faith rather than upon reason is a statistical one. Degrees of freedom! Faith based decision have fewer degrees of freedom. Any decision whose underpinnings are faith based rather reason based suffers a limited range of discourse because there are some things about which faith does not permit discourse.

By definition both discussion and reason end at the boundry of faith. Faith puts paid to all counter-argument no matter how strong the evidence; simply because faith demands the abandonment of reason in order to cross its boundry - faith: belief without evidence or in spite of contradictory evidence .

If one attempts to counter religeous terrorism by argumentation which is itself based upon religeous belief rather than reason then one must yield to the terrorist because their claim is that they choose their actions based on their belief. Since all religeous faith is, by both definition and example, unprovable; all religious faith belongs to the same set - the set of equally unprovable things. Therefore each belief must yield to any other belief on questions of religeous faith. No one can hold the high ground - neither moral nor post-destonational.

Hence, if one wishs to claim the high ground from which to assault faith based terrorism (either from abroad or from one's own government) one must develop and operate from an ethical foundation which is faith independent - i.e Reason based.

Superstition - mine, yours & theirs - is the monkey wrench in the works of cross-cultural compatatbility.

...granpa sluggy <steps down from soapbox.>...

Last edited: Friday, February 17, 2006 at 4:17:43 PM

I like it when gramps hits the soap box. Gets all "wordy" up in the house.

Sluggy earnin' his stars. Not sure what he's saying...but I like it.