@Rabban

You don't understand me. I never said you were a fanatic, only that by accepting to believe anything without using your mind seems like a step in that direction to me. Now, you go too far when you tell me:

"you don't seem to see any validity in anyone's faith or beliefs ".

I'm open to anything, and I tend to believe in "something" but I am also careful. It's so easy to get carried away and ending up believing your beliefs, thinking you know when you really don't. It procures peace of mind and certainly is helpful going through life. I'm even convinced that it can make "miracles" happen by allowing a flow of some force passing through by being in some kind of receptive state of mind. In every religion you can come across such experiences. I'm just not ready to believe fantasies just to acquire those benefits.

I strongly believe that by allowing false beliefs to enter your mind you get further away from wisdom. I know I'll never know the truth, but I think I have a better chance of grasping a couple of pieces of the puzzle by not polluting my mind with unbelievable fairy tales. How do I know your beliefs are false? :

“The thing is, there will come a time when the grace and mercy opportunity will be withdrawn and replaced with wrath and judgement. And its not about what political position one takes or the good deeds one does, but whether or not one is submitted to the lordship of Christ and repented for their rebellion against him.”

Not even a human court of justice would abide by such principles (well maybe a Taliban court) and God cannot be sub-human. This is an answer that doesn't come from any book and that's what gives it validity.

You might have experienced a "reality in your relationship with God that transcends religious drudgery" , again it happens in every religion. Do you doubt for 1 second that many of the 1.5 Billion muslims have also experienced a reality with God? Don't you see that Man can establish a relationship with God (or so he thinks) whatever the faith?

Last edited: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 at 1:19:54 PM

Ciao you intolerant coward.

I'm certain that Triv knows he types broken English. I even complimented him by saying that I speak only one language and poorly. This even though he insulted everyone of faith by stating the malfunction dilly.

Your reading comprehension is either terrible or you ingest only what you want.

In these conversations you need to trim the fat. You my friend just bubbled up and landed in the grease pan.

Oh, I forgot. Me so crazy. I didn't realize you were an Atheist, theologist and now a psychologist. You're quite the jackarse of all trades aren't you.

Me too.

Last edited: Sunday, August 20, 2006 at 5:03:23 PM

Gee, take a long weekend and ya miss out on all the "fun". With so many ideas being thrown around, its really hard to catch up, but I wanted to comment on a few things that I saw.

Yes, it is true that Christianity shares some of the same teachings are other religions. I think the simple reason for that is some ideas are universally true. Being kind to one another, helping the poor and working for the common good are all things we desire and strive for and that's fine. However, Christianity also has some claims to truth that are unique and absolute and Jesus responsible for this. While showing us the need for doing these good things, he says that we're unable to do them apart from a relationship with God. He also says that the ONLY way to have a good relationship with God is through him as a mediator. He claims to be that mediator based on his standing as the Son of God and offered himself as the needed atonement to make access to God available. As far as I know, the other leading figures of the other major religions don't make those claims. And it is on THAT point that Christian faith rests, where we trust that Jesus is the Son and that through his death we are reconciled to God. His resurrection is a testimony that God's approval is upon him and his message is true and from God. Many may not believe that claim and reject Christ as messiah, but it is the believer's mandate to share the opportunity to be reconciled to God with others. Some members of the faith have confused that message with a social message or agenda, but their mistakes or hypocrisy doesn't not change the good news or everyone's personal responsiblity to respond.

Hehe, I brought this thread to and end it seems.

It's the old glass house analogy. Monkey was throwing stones, completely insulting anyone of faith in a ridiculous manner, and when a pebble got tossed back at him he shattered. Some find it okay to blast religion without regard, as if everyone of faith deserves to be insulted. Hilarity ensues when they belittle who they classify as the intolerant or crazy, folks of faith, with their own predetermined notions and generalized mud slinging.

Generalize when this idiot is in town and I'll shall force you to the ground face up on your back and commmence with the facial beef stew. To those not as crass as me "beef stew' simply means I'll enjoy farting in your face verbally.

@Rogue
I don't see what that last post adds to your argument with Infinite Monkey. The guy didn't even respond to your previous post, but you still feel the need to throw more trash at him. I don't get it. Frankly, I think most people have offended someone in this thread (with the exception of AO). I am as guilty as others, for I have allowed myself to contradict strongly what some believe to be the truth. And I think it's OK, as long as we address the issue and avoid resorting to extreme personal attacks. You have your own style, and I like it most of the time, but there's a point where it becomes so negative, that it stops being funny. And I see no reason to focus on IM, he has a right to express his view that religion doesn't change anyone's behavior, if you disagree, just prove him wrong. I think that IM's participation in a thread usually brings well written clever coments and it's too bad that he had to clear off of this one.

@Rabban
You're not responding to anything. Just saying " my religion says things that others don't " doesn't make it any truer or any better. How do you know you're not the one who "confused the message". How do you know that if Jesus were to appear in front of you he wouldn't tell you:
"You fool, how could you believe such things?, don't you have more faith in me, that you'll accept teachings that are so unlike what me and my father are all about? What would prevent you to believe even worse things if they had been taught to you by these men? How reliable is your faith if you have no clue about who I am in your heart? "
(I don't mean to be rude with saying fool, just adds to the line ;) )

Last edited: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 at 1:25:27 PM

Stan, ah, he did, and then deleted all of his posts. You may have missed several absurd posts, attacking not me, but another.

It would be fine if he or anyone did just that. I would do in kind.

I see nothing wrong with my last post. Rabban said he'd missed out on a few things. I filled him in with a brief, yet accurate, depiction.

Let me put this in a different scenario. Stan, let's say you like cheese. The argument used by Monkey would be, ALL people that eat cheese are, blah, blah, blah. I don't want to hear that kind of stuff. We had a similar conversation with another person on here who liked to generalize. I think it ended with his rants about how African American folks are inadequate. I shut him up and now I've shut Monkey up.

I'm sorry, you may allow people to generalize. I will not, it's just the way I am. Monkey is now out of the conversation, and IMO that's a good thing. He attacked, was rebutted and then folded like a chair.

Let me add. If you are one that generalizes in an especially negative manner I will act against you with verbal abuse. We all should. I like my intolerants and racists shoved deeply in the closet.

Let me give you an example. I was in the casino bar at joint in Nassau, Bahamas. It was taking me a while to get my drink. Some yutz from Jersey notices then turns to me and says. They're all just, you know what, aren't they. My first thought was to simply level the guy. My next thought, was what I ended up doing. The busy bartender walked over and I told him what the idiot next to me had said. I'd never seen anyone run from a bar that fast in my life. He did manage to tell me that I was a bleeping bleep as he ran. But, guess what? He'll never do that again, at least at that place. A small victory. Go team. :)

Last edited: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 at 1:28:32 PM

Generalizations certainly can miss the exceptions to the rule. Obviously Rogue is nut who should be locked in a rubber room. Wearing a helmet. With a plastic jebus.

^ Superb. Gotta meet some Canadians in real life some day. Great post. God Bless Canada...and rational. Intelligent, compassionate people everywhere.

Last edited: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 at 6:21:53 PM

Well, I'm glad I stayed the F#@k out of this one. I'd be making some threats to slap some d __ks outta mouths by now as well, as hot headed as I am. But let me say...

As an atheist, I have no stake in this argument, nor any real interest...all I have is a little residual resentment from having to eat a bit of christian mumbo jumbo from the dominant christian culture when I was a kid. No real harm done. And I simply ADORE christmas. That's not ironic either.

Let me say this: (and I am saying it respectfully, as one who has absolutely no love for christianity or any other religion, and I am not singling IM out, who by the way I find to be a very intelligent feller...and also mean not to cast aspersions on rogue, the hot headed bastard because I have been that upset before - and just as wrong for it) what was I gonna say? Oh yeah!...get over blaming christians for the bloody episodes that some of their leadership have perpetrated throughout the millenia...because, if it wasn't christianity they were hawking as they strung up heretics, persecuted jews, and occasionally sodomized children, it would have been something else issuing from their lips, some other Absolute Source cited to goad on the followers, and the heretics et al would have met with the same fate anyway. The abuses perpetrated under the name of christianity have nothing to do with christianity itself. Nada.

These abuses are the abuses of the powerful over the weak. Human abuses. Christianity, like all religions, provided a structure for the priestly class to control those under them, and there are many internal controls in the bible that assisted them (just like there are many internal controls in say, the constitution, or the NAMBLA manifesto). The catholic church was no different from any other empire really...they all act self-servingly, violently, hypocritically and often selflessly, beneficially, altruistically. You cannot deny the good that has been done in the name of christianity either. No doubt...but back to the bad stuff: If it wasn't done in the name of christianity, it would have been something else...because though we like to think we are so goddam intelligent, people are really just up right monkeys running around with silly hats and fancy clothes. We need to be in groups where we mythologize to ourselves about how special we are, and we need to be able to exclude others...hate them for their differences, kill them for their stuff and their women, and blame it on their bad thoughts. At least that's what my dog told me this morning over tea and bisquits, but that bitch aint got no soul.

I shouldn't listen to her, but what's an atheist to do? Right rogue? We can't think for ourselves...(how'd you write that without being crushed by the irony, prythee?)

Ps. I simply adore canadians too. They are clearly more highly evolved. It is obvious. Also not ironic. (but jesus christ! Can you bastards work on your city planning a bit, eh? Its called a HIGHWAY vancouver! Look into it).

Last edited: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 at 10:32:58 PM

^Canadians highly evolved? Lol.
What a hasty evolution, it only took 200 years. THey are supermen!

Well kkb, its all relative. But do riddle me this: at what point in your reading of my post did your eyes glaze over and you begun to scratch yourself and think about having a triscuit? Be honest.

@ stan - I'm addressing the idea that Christianity and other religions are basically the same since they all teach, "do good things". While Christianity does teach that within context, the purpose is to either show us our need for God since we can't accomplish such goodness on our own or this is how we should act in response to God's life in us.

As for the other, how do you knows, I quote Clint Eastwood from The Gauntlet . "cause I got this badge, I got this gun, and I got the love of Jesus right here in my pretty green eyes." XD Seriously, how do I know? Well, I did have that phase where I investigated the Bible and Jesus to check in their reliability, their history and such. That's been awhile ago (so I can't quote it all here) and it settled those questions for me. I've added a current resource that may be helpful if you're interested. But beyond that, it works. I can tell a big difference in my life between when I'm following God and when I'm not. I've looked into other religions a little during my teens, read a few things, but the texts just didn't resonate within me. And really, once you go through the academics, you still have to believe and trust in the "good news". There's still an element of faith even after the archeology and extra-biblical texts are investigated. There's still a point where you make a personal decision about the evidence and message. But one thing I believe is that we all have enough information available to us to make that decision and I think it comes down to what we want. Either we're drawn to God and a relationship with him or we're not.

What I find interesting is how sure you seem to be sure that I'm wrong, but it seems that your "Something" is practically nothing. There doesn't seem to be any guidelines or history or form to this thing, but somehow you hold onto it. There's no way for me to scrutinize your beliefs or how well you're following them. No way to point the finger and claim that other adherents to "Something" have done a lot of bad things, so it must be false. How does the "Something" effect your life? Is there any promise in it?

I think its good that you believe in "Something". I hope you're able to discover what that someting is some day.

Faith and Reason

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 6:26:42 AM

@Rabban
The "how do I know"s part isn't in relation to the historicity, where there is no agreement from scholars anyway. This is not about facts, this is about the interpretation of a book. Mainly the belief that only those who believe in Jesus will be saved, all others sent to hell. And I am curious about what makes someone read a book in a way that goes against the most basic notion of God. There is what I consider to be a flagrant antagonism between the Christian belief of exclusivity and God's self evident quality of inclusivity. This is where I find immorality and therefore an anti-thesis to Goodness. This is how I can know this is a false belief, without knowing what my "something" is. I have explained this repeatedly though. Here's what I wrote to Filbert:

------------------
Do you not uphold your God to be able to show any compassion? In what way does the blind obedience to accept a certain belief deserves any reward? I fail to see any inherent quality in that behavior. And why not then reward other people who have chosen to believe blindly other facts and ideas. More importantly, I find it incoherent and blasphemous to lend God none of the qualities that most of us admire in Jesus. Your beliefs not only don't make you any better, but they are also truly insulting to God in my view. Which in turn makes it all the more inconceivable that God would punish people for not wanting to insult him. Which in turn again, makes it even more unlikely that God would punish anyone refusing to believe an inconceivable idea.

Maybe will be saved, the ones who have upheld a grand idea of God, despite the devil's efforts through evil preachers to belittle what he is. That would make more sense. Wouldn't it? After all we're the true believers in God and even the threat of Hell won't sway our faith that God is Love and Wisdom.

And I absolutely want to go to Hell, in the highly unlikely event that you're right.
-------------------

I hope we can all discover what this "something" is someday, but in the mean time, let's be humble. Most of us have enough consciousness to know what can't be true, but not enough to know the ultimate truth.

"Through my teachings you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." Gospel of John

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 7:14:42 AM

Monkey, you really don't get it.

You generalize about Christians. I use the I'll beat your ass lines in an ironical manner and the example of GENERALIZING about African Americans or any other RACE or RELIGION and you can't make the connection. So, all Christians tell you such things? I protest and I highly doubt you've ever been pressured by a Christian.

You simply don't know me at all. I'm actually quite well adjusted. I have a superb family life, even with my old man, and pull in a salary I simply don't deserve. I sell real estate, I do graphic design and write for two magazines as a freelancer. I also have three degrees that I attained in under six years. I left my career, my career!, that I loved when my wife and I had children just so she could continue with hers. Yah, you're right I'm horrible.

When writing in a social forum such as this I write how I speak in a conversation. It is called conversational writing and allows the reader to know exactly where you're coming from. I try my best to not put up a front and pretend to be somebody I'm not.

I do come from the school of hard knocks though. I grew up on a steady diet of Government cheese. Got my ass beat when I was a very young kid dozens of times, considering I'm 5'6" and a buck fitty. I do however walk the walk. Turned out my drunk father, who was that way because of a war you slimey piece of excrement, had a buddy who owned a gym. I boxed from age twelve to twenty one.

My defense of minorities I assure you is no front. You really do know zippy. I've worked with at risk inner city youths since 1996. I coach a baseball team consisting entirely of children considered to be at risk. My wife and I also tutor once a week at an elementary school consisting mainly of minorities. And yes, I have used my skills from the gym to slap the piss out of a few racists.

That said, you know zilch about me. I do however know quite a bit about folks like you who generalize. The likelihood that one who generalizes about one group and could easily do so about another is high. Am I wrong? I doubt. I'll spend the rest of my life ensuring that I'm not surrounded by the intolerant, and yes, that includes other Christians.

Stink, I don't think I'm wrong at all for getting bitter with people like this. There's a way to say things and a way not too say things. When you basically say that an entire group is this or that you're wrong, end of story. If you state, personally I don't believe in God because I feel it's fiction that's fine. You're allowed and I'll respect that. Do the opposite and I'll glady make myself look like an ass at your expense. Generalize about a group that preaches hate such as the KKK and I'll agree.

Maybe I should start using fifty cent words as well. Maybe, just maybe, people will then see the validity in what I say. Unfortunately, I'm not good at putting up a front.

Monkey I don't want you to delete your posts. In fact, give us all a one line summation of what you really feel. Be sure to make it all encompassing about this particular group of people as most of your posts had done. Also, Triv saying that somebody has something wrong with their brain if they believe in God is highly offensive to me. Yet, it seems okle dokle by you. I am a "good" Catholic. I'll stop my life just to help somebody out. I'm simply a good Catholic who lives in the REAL WORLD and is very cogent of the pandemic of intolerance that walks among him, including other Catholics.

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 7:06:11 AM

To risk being completely off topic and misunderstood, having not had the time to catch up and read all 113 posts. I agree with what rabban is saying...

Their is a stall trying to convert people in edinburgh to christianity, in the centre of town.
Their large sign out front says:

What would be the difference if the sign said

I know it's down to faith, but I'm just curious about how one religion or idea gets peoples faith over another? Are they not all in the end trying to create a more 'just' world for it's inhabitants.

@stan - I think I'm starting to get it now.

The thing is, it seems that you're basing your view on your basic notion of God and how you think he ought to be. However, the Bible is chock full of references where God does make a distinction, that its his way or the hellway.

This is one of the distinct features of Christianity, that it is exclusive in the sense that only those who trust in Jesus are able to be reconciled with God and thus attain heaven. However, that opportunity is available to all, whosoever will. So in that sense its inclusive. Now its true that God is loving, but that's not his only attribute (though everyone seems to wish it were). He's merciful and compassionate, just and holy. He extends to everyone his grace, but he's not afraid to punish those who do wrong and reject him. He's the perfect father.

Damn my balls itch...mmmm....triscuits!

I'm sorry, what was that?(I wonder if there's any Easy cheese left....)

No, IM I get it. But I hadn't read your posts before you deleted them.

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 11:53:51 AM

@Rabban

I must admit that the opinions you defend here leave me almost speachless. Do you really believe that all people of all other faiths than yours are rejecting God and should be punished? Yes I have basic notions of what God is, don't you? Are you really advocating that since Man is having a hard time comprehending God fully, he should just stop using his brains altogether and that will lead him miraculously towards wisdom? Do you really think there's light there? Do you not see the paralell between that thinking process and all the other fanatics out there?

I personally don't see anything distinctive in Christianity, except in the way that you want to interpret it. How do you know that the reference of Jesus as an exclusive path to God, isn't to be understood by what Jesus represents - the embodiment of God - instead of "he" as a person? And since you're a clueless human being who can't have any notion about the subject, how can you argue one way or the other?

You also seem to be assuming a lot of false ideas regarding other religions. Here's some excerpts of a different book than yours. Surely the works of the devil.

I'm not not being sarcastic in saying this but I'm not sure at this point that you'll even understand the questions I'm asking. Your belief system seems to have required the abandonment of reasoning, morality, awareness, sense of right or wrong, fairness, intuition,...anything that would have enabled you to understand the teachings of Jesus, or any other spiritual guide.

Yet I think you're a decent man, and I know you are clever in any other life subject. On religion, it is my view that you've fallen into fanaticism, defined by me by the acceptance of beliefs that are contrary to basic human morality.

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 3:00:04 PM

@Rogue,

Are you not in fact generalizing about people who generalize.. YES you ARE... Lol.. Oh what a wicket tanlged web we weave...

^ Elaborate doc. Yes, quite a wicket web you waskawee wabbit.

Dude, you're absurd. His name is doc, he typed the word wicket instead of wicked. I simply made a Bugs Bunny reference. You must be a blast at parties. Here, I'll spell it out more for yah. Bugs Bunny to Elmer Fudd, "What's up doc?"

Funny how you left out the remaining part.

Prove me wrong Captain Happy.

BTW, your previous post was so different from the others? Why? Did I overcome? Your new tone is a monumental contradiction to what set me off.

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 1:01:28 PM

Agree with stinks...to a point.

Monkey c monkey do...

I being pseudo chirsten ( I guess I had to choose a religion) understood the
control of the ppl running the religion i.e. Give ten % of all earnigs to the
church, knowlegde is evil, ect...

We follow around with these church leaders like the shepherd and his lambs
with out questioning the contradiction of their teachings.

With the words of GOD we are manipulated to do evil to our fellow man, and
most are to eager to follow those orders of evil.

I guess thats why I believe in GOD but dont attend church, and for that I am
called (pseudo chirsten) by the hard core bible thumpers... I believe that I can
decipher between good and evil on my own, and without the taint of man in
the mix...

To all atheist out there, just a question, if you all dont believe in GOD or
religion what do u believe in ???

And dont tell me logic and science... Just interesting to the ignorant.

Mularkey. Complete and utter mularkey. I wasn't talking about my own greatness. I was stating where I come from and what I do in relation to your posted comments. I could easily take the position that troubled inter-city youths can't be changed or given hope by another. I don't and try to help as much as I can. Knowing that somebody does in fact care about them and is there to help can in fact change their outlook upon life and themselves for the better. Religion can, and has, had the same positive consequences on people as well.

Your assumption that I profess to be some kind of martyr is ridiculous. You see it as silly, I see it as my life and relevant to your posted generalizations. Helping the deprived or discriminated is who I am.

I'm done with you. You obviously weren't reading your own words. You won't go where you were going again. That's good enough for me. In the words of George Bush, "Mission accomplished?"

Vash: " I believe that I can decipher between good and evil on my own, and without the taint of man in the mix..."

I agree. I believe the Bible has been tainted by man. I think quite a bit is obvious, just read some of the passages about women. However, I do believe that in its purest form, sans human intervention, religion is a beautiful and uplifting source of hope for mankind.

I hate to keep using this quote from Dogma but, "People took a good idea and made it a belief." This "belief" is where the taint of man comes in.

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 1:45:50 PM

Tone meathead, tone. Of course I don't agree with you. I'm Catholic you insolent baboon.

"Christians in America being persecuted"
ah yes, the persecuted majority. Quite a trick, that.

Roguey: "I agree. I believe the Bible has been tainted by man." I'm not sure how something written by man cannot be "tainted" by man. How does that work? Are you saying the bible wrote itself? More likely, that god directed men to write it, or they channeled god? I can see that it would be hard for man not to taint the word in either case. But not being associated with the tradition, it is easy for me to see not the taint of man, put the creativity of man (er, men) at work in the writing of it. Btw: why is it that god is thought only to have worked through these ancient men? And: if a man today made claims to speak for god, wouldn't you think him crazy? (GW Bush cough) but you don't think it at all odd that ancient men made the same claims? I guess it says a lot for the tunic, the beard, and the sandals...they lend an air of plausibility I guess.

Vash: "what do atheists believe?" dunno exactly. Someone up there ^ maybe rogue stated that on our death beds, most/all of us would puss out and try to go over to god, or something like that, suggesting that the fear of going into an uncertain beyond would transform us into simpering cowards needing one last fairy tale and a tuck in...which is interesting because I think it suggests a rationale that makes belief in some religion or other so appealing to some of you followers...it insulates you from the fears of death. A kind of anesthesia.

I am afraid of death, but I don't give in to the fear. In any case, organized religions don't appeal to me. I mean to say, they are antithetical to me. Or vice versa. The very nature of them repulses me. I'm sorry, but given the sheer number of differing ontologies out there, and the amazing diversity among them, the possibility that any one of them is accurate and that the rest are not seems absurd to me. It isn't so much what these religions state, its how they claim it . With that self-righteous assuredness. Many of you might say that the particulars don't matter, that the essence of the religion is the thing. I'm inclined to agree with that. Some of you have said you see a common theme running through the great religions. It seems true though that there isn't much of a consensus on what the essence ever really is.

In the end, I don't deny the possibility of the existence of a god, or many gods...i just don't have any reason to believe at this point. Not being raised religious -- indoctrinated -- and not being especially cowardly, lost, or in need of a spiritual make-over: and quite in the influence of the scientific method with all its given limitations...i have no present need of a good story. What do I believe? Dunno exactly...i believe in an idea that is hard for me to put my finger on, though I've seen others do a good job of it. I read this quote on a MMA site today (a place where I used to train...really cool bunch of guys, check it out: http://www.straightblastgym.com/blog/index.html

I've experienced some christians relating to this as well, and from a christian perspective...so maybe god is in each and every one of us. But this "god" doesn't resemble any of the pictures we've painted of "him." I'll bet my immortal soul on that.

I feel strongly though, that any religion that claims to be the one true religion is itching for a fight. How could it not be? Getting back to taints...if that isn't a sign of the taint of man, I don't know what is.

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 9:55:47 PM

@ Vash
You ask:

Why do you put the following condition on your questiion?

Here's my theory on God channeling men. Let's use the old comedy prison chain letter. God says to whomever, "Prison break at 3pm." The next guy in line tells another, "Chisel flakes ate 3 men." This guy tells yet another...

I feel a lot of the negative connotations within the Bible were tainted just as my above, yet poor, example. Many of these examples can be found throughout the Bible. I think many biases of the age made their way into the Bible by the hand of man. God, knowing people to be fallible, certainly would expect men to misinterpret or even use his words for their own gain.

So, on this pretense, correct or not, which I've stated above I can answer to you my own personal interpretation of the Bible. Once again, God knowingly created a fallible creature, so I feel this Bible is not only a guide but a series of tests. Let's see if you can see through the "taint" and grab the true meaning of what I say. For instance, Paul got it wrong Rogue, let's see if you can get it right. Told yah that my answers are my own. Heh.

Why has God only spoken to ancient men? See my last lackluster paragraph above. Getting it wrong is certainly something God expected, since again he created us to be fallible. Why has God or Jesus not come back? Dunno. Plain and simple, I don't. My theory, God made us fallible yes, but God also gave us the ability to reason, think, problem solve, whatever. So again, "Stay here for a bit Jesus. I want to see if they get it right." I know I'm beating the word fallible to death but I feel it's intrinsic in getting my point across.

My comments about Atheists leaping to God on their death bed was more of an example of hope than anything else. Hope is what keeps many us going when we lose a loved one, a friend or even Rodney Dangerfield. I feel without this hope, or faith as I would call it, many of us would lead a miserable or even futile existance. So, in some respects I would agree, it is in fact an anesthesia as you put it. I fear death immensely. Did I get I right? If there isn't a God why did I try to get it right? For my family and friends? Why should I try and get it right if there's nothing? These are questions I ask of myself. Without hope I feel their would be mass anarchy. Yes, I know, religion has killed a lot of people throughout history. That's because so far we've gotten it wrong. Without hope, I feel their would be even more death and chaos throughout the world. Who would actually give a flip because now big brother isn't looking over your shoulder?

My most simplest reason for believing there's some higher power at work involves how wonderfully unique we are and the size of the universe. I think we discredit ourselves when we compare our species to other living organisms. I feel we're so unique that there isn't even room for comparison. As far as the universe goes, draw a line and extend it outwards forever. That friggin flips me out. IMO we know less about ourselves than this enormity of a galaxy in which we live.

My answers are my own. Laugh at them if you want. I could give you a textbook answer but it simply wouldn't be true if I did.

I will say this, those that make it their moral imperative to disprove, prove or even change another beliefs certainly need their testicles squashed with a meat mallet.

Didn't think I was gonna leave here without something crass did you?

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 9:22:27 PM

I expect nothing less. :)

Twas a good post. I would like to point out since you mention it, that many religious people have expressed wonderment over the prospect of living without what you called hope/faith or what others may call "the promise of eternity". Well I am here to say that without religion, living without faith or the promise of eternity isn't really much of a challenge. Because, unless you muck it up the living part come pretty natural, If you get my drift. I understand that the disillustionment that followed WWII created a lot of religious uncertainty, and a whole new batch of atheists...and inspired a generation of modernist writers and new modes of literature. For example, GW just read The Stranger, a fine example of existentialism...though that doesn't help me make my point, I meant to say that these people much of the time were trying to find their way through a reality they had recently found to be incompatible with god with a capital g. They didn't go bonkers. They didn't slit their wrists of despair, and they didn't degenerate to hedonism. Today, much of europe is irreligious. Make of that what you will. They aren't all doing themselves in...

In terms of accessing the moral compass absent any prescribed code, that isn't really all that hard either if you somewhat of a thoughtful person. For one thing, as a member of christian culture I have access to christian codes of morality which I find to make a lot of sense. For another, there is a long line of humanist thinkers, philosophers, writers and so on who help me understand where I fit into the picture. It aint hearts flowers and fluffy clouds, but it brings me peace...still, it is always fleeting. I never have the answer for long. But that seems very natural for me.

How much of the time do you contemplate god? Much of your thought process is likely devoted to other thoughts throughout the day. It is the same with me. Occasionally I experience the moments where I find my ability to reason overwhelmed by the mysteries of life. But you know what? That doesn't frighten me either. Whether or not I can wrap my mind around it, I know that I am part of it, that I belong here...and that gives me peace. Maybe some people can't stand not having "the answers." not me. There are mysteries we will never fully comprehend...so be it...because that too is life. Maybe that's why aristotle commanded us to know ourselves...because that is really about all any one of us will ever truly know, and that only if we are dilligent, open and honest...with ourselves.

In being honest with myself, I reject religion -- for myself. I cannot honestly say what is right for you.

Last edited: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 at 10:16:20 PM

Do you think their questioning or abandonment is based purely on disbelief of a God or disbelief in God as it pertains to human bias, error or tragedy?

CHAZ = LOVE

Good question. Perhaps either depending on the individual. I believe that many questioned the existence of god after living through the hell that was that horrible war...but some, like hemmingway, didn't jettison God, just the version that he had been sold. Perhaps it was the absolute lunacy of the invocations of god on all sides, the absurdity of the killing in his name, the hypocrisy of the brutality religious nations were capable of visiting on other human beings.

I think they found the traditions that led to the brutality sickening, and they questioned it all...religion, social organization, politics.

I'm getting out of my depth here. I need a TMO disclaimer.

Stinker

Taint by the idea or message.

No doubt just translating the message
for man to understand is tainting.

The taint I was refering is to man imperfect
soul tendency to have power and control.

As ro.guey stated.

And your quote reminds me of native american
echo religion before the christens.

Funny how we circle.

Bc'ed

It was meant as sarcasm...

U can say,,, as an atheist, "I believe in logic and science."

Phew :'( That's all I've got man.

Kinda what I think Stink. However, I do believe there is a huge segment of the world's population that doesn't feel they belong here because of these human errors, bias or tragedies. A lot of them may be held together simply by faith. This is what I'm slowly building towards.

At any rate, here's a little story about a real humanist. It's also a slap at Captain Happy whom may think somebody speaking of their work with people as a front or some form of bragging.

Aaron Taylor

Read it if you'd like., Here's a few lines from it anyway.

Vash: "The taint I was refering is to man imperfect "

This comes up often...the idea of perfection and man's falling short of it.

Perfection is an ideal. It does not have physical form or existence outside of the ideal realm, which means it exists only in the minds of men. It is a bar erected by man that he can never attain. You can keep jumping at the ideal, or you can realize that the ideal does not exist outside of the mind. It is a construct. It is a fabrication. Man is not perfect? perfection is a fairy tale. And I'll tell you something else: none of us even know what we think we mean when we talk about "perfection." it's one term given to 7 billion different shifting, evolving concepts.

Why punish yourself or condemn mankind for what only exists in the mind? I'm sure rabban is chomping at the bit here. But let that sink in: perfection is an ideal. As an ideal it has no right to reflect upon physical reality. It's BullS__t.

God does not fault you your "imperfection." no, I imagine all that stuff in the bible about fallibility, original sin, imperfection and the like was the man resenting man because he was not ideal, or god like...because he could not conform to the ephemeral concepts that existed only in his own imagination.

Get over it folks.

@all.

Actually Rogue did get my joke.. It WAS meant as a Elmer fudd thing.. Good one..

@ stink

I've been doing philosophical detection on you and suspected as much. On one hand, It makes me sad to hear you say that, on the other its good that you understand yourself in such explicit terms.

I know I'm fallible by nature, but I find great joy in my ability to seek perfection.

:) philosophical detection! I like that. But I don't mean that you can't seek a kind of perfection...i mean that the perfection you seek should be your person ideal of perfection. Striving for some "ideal" in the platonic sense of the ideal, the collectively held ideal (as though such a thing exists as one unitary concept), is a dead end. I believe deeply in striving to live up to my own ideals, though they do shift somewhat as I age.

What I was rejecting above was the religious concept of perfection. Perfection in religious terms is a synonym for god-like. Of course we are not god-like. It doesn't mean we should beat ourselves up over it.

Did that alter the sadness?

:)
Now I have to admit I was poking you with a stick. Your point is important and I thought deserved further clarification. Well done.

That I'm a lazy stick poker is one of my weaknesses.

If u believe in evolution then u must believe that when our
soul compare to Gods soul, is imperfect.

It may be like apples and oranges but we were just talking about his
existence.

I would compare us to a infant,,no wait, scratch that,, a sperm floating in
the space of souls.

Peferction is, I agree, a thought, religion is a thought, what makes it real
is belief.

U dont believe, and most dont, therefore I can C why you dismiss it as
a fairy tale.

So we people unfortunately will never get over it...

Its hard to get a hold of water so can u answer this question...are ufo's real?
just outta curiosity.

Last edited: Thursday, August 24, 2006 at 12:35:11 PM

Lol vash. Ufos? Of course!

"If u believe in evolution then u must believe that when our
soul compare to Gods soul, is imperfect." [first of all...the concept of a perfect god is at odds with the concept of evolution because he is hypostatic and unchanging...evolution doesn't occur without constant change...luckily, the nature of existence and non-existence is change...and a non-changing entity is antithetical to both existence and non-existence]. You shouldn't compare yourself to god. You will never meet the mark. Nor should you compare yourself to others because as the saying goes, there will always be greater and lesser beings than yourself. Set your own mark and strive for that, I say...comparing yourself to nothing at all. If there are traits in others you admire or value, emmulate those traits...but don't compare yourself to the holder of those traits...another dead end.

Insert disclaimer here:

U must live in a box... LOL (j/k)

When I said if u believe in "evolution" I didnt mean that god was
evolving only that he is the apex of a button he pushed.

U shouldnt look down on ppl who strive to be like their heavenly
father,,because we all want to grow-up to be just like dad.

Thats true but does that detour you from trying?

If you fail, SO what,, just pick your a** off the floor and try again.

It may lead you to chasing your tail, but its better than laying on
the floor like a bump on a log, or just a log.

Btw are u just f'in with me when u said; "ufo's of course."

Lmao... If so thats some funny sh*$... But really, what do u think???

Last edited: Thursday, August 24, 2006 at 2:17:52 PM

I honestly never gave it much thought...so I guess I was f ing wicha :)

Btw: comparing yourself to god isn't the same as striving to attain his virtues...right? When one makes a comparison, one evaluates...judges, both himself and the other. Its that judging part that I think is unhealthy. If your idea of god is your mark, I think you should try to be as much in his image as you can achieve. Nothing wrong with that from a logical perspective, is there? Just don't compare yourself to him...that's what I'm saying. Strive to acquire what you find virtuous in him, if that is your thing.

Gods we aint.

Perfect we aint / imperfect we aint...why? Because "perfection" does not exist outside of the mind.

So thats a NO?

Right,

the only reason to compare yourself is to find a spiritual compass of where we
stand spiritually, people who believe need to know where to go...right?

And when you are judging for direction, I think that would be ok,, and healthy to boot...

We dont want to shoot for "nothing at all" ( set a bar where u can reach it)
we want to shoot for HIM. Not to be a God, but to be next to God...

U C there is this whole eternal life with him we want not only because we want to live
forever, but also because we love him.

Gods we aint,,and Gods we dont want to be.

I get the gist of your perspective, and I think it fits you fine, for now anyway...
personally if I had no faith in a religion I would follow your advice.

You are the bruce lee of religion, that is formless, adapt to any to style of
society morality.

But just believing in God fits me for now...

And if perfection does not exist outside of the mind.. Call me delusional.

Cuz dats wat I be,, u kno, my main man...

P.s.

U mean to tell me u dont kno wat chi-kneez spare-ribs is??? LMAO

Last edited: Friday, August 25, 2006 at 12:49:12 PM

"You are the bruce lee of religion, that is formless, adapt to any to style of
society morality"...

Yes, also influenced by bruce lee's take on taoism...and as well as his philosophy of MA. (I am a jkd instructor/practitioner...though that has tapered off for the last couple of years since I blew my knee out -- tore out my acl and shredded some of the meniscus...(doing jkd...go figure) two years ago.

^ kinda figured that... U be one tricky fish and all.

So I guess I will resume my chasing of my tail...

Btw are u back in the states? Let me know when
knee fully heals, and in the cali area, maybe
we could spar a few rounds in the ring.

Then maybe pound a few beers and a couple
shots after that we can take turns kickin each
other in the nuts until some one pass out.

Sound like fun?

Some good posts Stink.

Following on your idea of perfection. What is perfection and is it attainable?

Perfection as an abstract concept is of course unattainable. But is it really what’s required of us in order to become a Man, in the way Kipling means it when he says “you will be a Man, my son”. Obviously not. Meaning that you don’t need to become God in order to reach human perfection. What makes us imperfect isn’t forgetting where we put our car keys, but rather our egoism, which seem to take root in our false understanding of who we really are and the world around us.

Anyway, it seems most religions agree on one thing, it is that in the end we will be perfectly pure, have perfect knowledge and we will spend eternity with God. Most religions tell us that we should change ourselves in order to acquire that perfection. The mainstream understanding of Christianity differs in that it doesn’t require its followers to embark on a journey to transforming themselves, it just asks that they accept as the truth a few beliefs and God will transform them miraculously. So either way you earn your grace, only with Christianity it’s a lot cheaper.

But here comes an other problem. Do people really want to be perfect? Asked this way most people will probably say “yes”. But being perfect means being an other person, having other goals, other feelings that create a different thinking. Do people deep inside really want to give up what they are? I don’t think so. There’s a gap between what we want and what we think we want. We may say, yea I want to be like God, like a child who says “I want to be a ship captain when I grow up”, when all we really want to do is play in the yard.

The Buddhists have a nice way to represent this concept. It’s about how a monkey gets trapped as he finds peanuts in a coconut. The hole in the coconut is only large enough for him to put his hand inside, but once he grabs the peanuts and makes a fist with his hand, he can’t pull it out. He could set himself free, but only when he’s willing to let go of the peanuts.

Change can only happen from the inside. I’m afraid we might have to earn our grace the hard way. As always no free lunches.

Last edited: Friday, August 25, 2006 at 5:50:53 PM

No, the way to reach peace is to find your own answer... Noone can force 'faith' or alternately 'atheism' upon you. The answer for YOU may be to 'stop asking these sorts of questions' but that is not necessarily universal. Religion works...

My personal view is that religion is way of creating a set of universal 'ethics', to improve the lives of people, in much the same way that the law is supposed to. I don't see how so many religions could be trying to teach good and have benevolent ideals if they WERE from a 'god' or higher source... Why WOULD a god have any reason to love us? Surely if all religions were from a "god" then their would be an equal amount of religions which dwelled on the negative, as the positive.
Religion, in my view, is a human-creation - how else do you explain the divine right of kings - which is to try to make people work together and improve the lives of EVERYONE. If everyone DID believe in only ONE religion, with the same interpretation of it, the world quite simply WOULD be a better place - no arguments about how you should live your life - the problem comes because their IS independent thought, people DON'T all think the same. People, as I said at the start of this need to find their OWN answers, and respect the conclusions that others have came to.

_{Should I be waiting patiently for kkb to spout the bullshit he has heard on tv about terrorist bombers not respecting his ideas and wanting to wipe him out for his "freedom"? Therefore he has the right to kill their mothers, daughters, sons, brothers, sisters, fathers, cousins, uncles, aunties, grandparents, step-parents because he has a more valid religion and economic/ governmental ruling system?}

Last edited: Friday, August 25, 2006 at 3:54:10 PM

Vash: "Then maybe pound a few beers and a couple
shots after that we can take turns kickin each
other in the nuts until some one pass out."

Been there done that...from my early twenties to mid thirties...now I only really do that when I'm watching UFC with my old training partner. He's 8 years younger than I am and still training hard. Its inevitable though that when were watching grown men brawling, that we end up kicking each other in the nuts, arm-barring, or tea-bagging each other. Luckily my wife thinks its funny.

Good posts above...

To stantank: I still reject that idea of perfection. As it is commonly understood, perfection is actually a mental trick. It is a subjective term masquerading as an objective one. Like....beauty. We all talk about it as though we had the same referent in mind, but when it comes down to it, our definitions are probably worlds apart, as well as shifting from day to day. IM said: "I think the only thing we can ever achieve is some sort of inner peace, and the way to reach that peace is to learn to stop asking these sorts of questions."

And I agree with that somewhat...but with the concept of beauty and perfection, say, rather than not ask the question, its probably more fruitful to ask it appropriately...to frame the question accurately. Perfection can't be quantified or articulated with any kind of absolute finality. It is a purely abstract idea...i do agree with stan's take on egoism as a it pertains to the concept of "perfection," at least, my concept of perfection.

Understanding "perfection" as a subjective concept, you needed bother worrying your monkey head over it any more, any more than you'd exhaust yourself explaining to your friend that Oasis really, really sucked. Its a subjective judgement. You know they suck, but your subjective musical tastes don't apply to your friend's appreciation. Still, its fun to talk shit when you are drunk...which is the only time you should have a serious discussion about beauty, or Oasis...or maybe perfection.

There really are some questions that are not worth it, or are tricks of a primate mind on an unsuspecting primate with delusions of grandeur. That's why I agree with the IM. Some questions are just straight up linguistic or philosophical traps, and vexations on the spirit...that's how I see 99% of western philosophy. Crap sandwhich. Just because someone takes a dumb on a chunk of bread doesn't mean I'll call it a sandwhich....let alone eat it. (you got that immanual kant?)

And I second IM's prediction that even if there were one religion...it would fracture into a 1000 different schisms in a couple decades, or millenia...just as christianity did. "The problem is that factionalizing is our natural tendency." so it seems.

Yes, crap sandy.

Ok old man... Understand, u dont want me mopping
up the ring with u, its kool homes. LOL

Btw did U C chuck's first round o.k. Last night? (cant stand that guy)

Really? I am at peace now and still I seek perfection.
with out moving forward I believe it will only lead u
to spiritual stagnation.

Perfection maybe a monkey mind trick but I believe
it serves a purpose in the evolution of our spirit.

How else would a spirit evolve without the mind,
the ideas, thoughts, subjective thinking, ect....

???

That would also depend if u believe in the human
spirit, being a subjective ideal itself.

To all who say perfection is not real, spiritually speaking,
are we not God's imagination?

Last edited: Sunday, August 27, 2006 at 11:31:48 AM