(Off topic thread... Go away if you are not interested...DONT waist our time spamming this spam by telling us this thread is...er....well...spam)

Hi all, the following is another silly and oversimplified religious thread started by TG.

But I find myself wondering....

God is the Father of Jesus, and Jesus is the biblical version of a test tube baby.... What kind of DNA would Jesus have?

All of our DNA carry modified but very similar versions of the same DNA structures found in our parents.....

If the bones of Jesus were found, and it was indisputable that they truly are the bones of jesus (humor me k?).... And scientists examined the DNA.... What would they find?

Katherine the inquisitive atheist lesbian

Last edited: Saturday, June 19, 2004 at 3:25:48 PM

Firstly they would never find the bones of Jesus, Sorry can't humor yah there. As the story goes, "On the third day he rose again." The tomb was empty.

ROGUE, suspend your disbelief.... The (Humor me) statement was to be taken literally.....

If the J-man rose on the third day... Where did he go? (I really don't know the story). Did he leave this earthly plane and get his groove on in heaven? Or did he just rise again, headed out, and no-one saw him again?

I guess that brings me to another question.... IF he rose again and vanished... Why? Ascension to heaven would not include your physical body.... Why would his flesh and bones vanish?

I really am curious.

Katherine.

50% Mary -- 50% Joseph

LOL 44. The story ends that once he rose from the dead, not just his spirit, he took his seat at the right hand of God. In order to ask the question what DNA would Jesus have you'd first have to believe that he existed. Sorry, was a good attempt at a thread but I think the case is closed. On a lighter note I hear that once he took his seat that he immediately created lesbians.

LOL 44....

Rogue, This is a light thread... A festive look at the question....

Setting aside the original intent of this thread, (FWIW I do believe Jesus existed and did great things for the people of his time). You are saying that Jesus spirit and his physical body left the earth to be with God..... Hmm.... Why would his body go too? I don't get that one.

"Thank God for Lesbians!" sounds like a good bumper sticker.

Ok let me explain why this question is impossible to answer. When a forensic scientists analyzes a hair in a murder case and finds a hair that matches a suspect he puts a number to it. In this case let's pretend that 44 is the murderer. The forensic scientist would say that there is a 1 out of a million chance that 44 did not commit the murder. That is based on the DNA found in the hair. Now, if you found the bones of Jesus, which according to the story do not exist, and took a sampling of the DNA the answer would now be one million out of one million. Meaning, that it could be anybody. If you believe that God created all human life then we all would have the supreme beings DNA. Hence, it would be impossible to tell if Jesus was the son of God, because if you believe in this theory we'd all contain God's DNA. Kinda hard to explain in text and with my son on my lap.

The glove don't fit.

@ tg

If jesus is gods baby we wouldnt probally find anything but human dna, but just think about it, how can a mortal being find an infinite being.(god may not have what we call dna). Your question should be how can we prove god exist.

@44

Lol

@rogue

U said it all.

If Jesus can create mass mass from nothing (feeds a crowd a meal of fish and bread form a single basket) then I think God has no problem disposing of the physical body when Jesus ascended. You can get into all kinds of crazy theories, actually about the state of Jesus' flesh and blood after he rose (remember his words at the last supper)? It's another topic.

As for DNA? Hmmmm....well, I doubt we would find anything especially unusual. I think God just sort of scooped up a handful of dirt, built-up the DNA while saying things like, "Hmmm...let's give him brown hairmake him tall so the people in the back can see himbetter give him a solid build since his father will probably make him to carpentry" Then, he wrapped it up into a few holy sperm, called in two angles, and then told them: "Okay, Sam, you distract her by telling her that she's going to have a baby. Bob, you sneak up behind her while she is kneeling and deliver this package."

I don't see why he'd bother with anything special. It's just a body. The soul is not dependent on the DNA.

Truthfully, the thing that fascinates me most is the part where the Holy Spirit gives the disciples the power to speak in anybody's native language. It actually mentions in the bible that people of different languages where simultaneously hearing the apostles speak in their own language! If you ask me, that is more amazing than the water-to-wine parlor trick. Wish I was there.

- BombJames Bomb

Last edited: Saturday, June 19, 2004 at 7:17:06 PM

Here's the real story:

Jesus was a fine man and a great addition to history. He wasnt the son of any god. His Mother, Mary gave birth to him. Mary really loved the nice house that her husband Joseph, a carpenter, had built for her (and he was well endowed). So to keep her innocense, she insisted that she was a virgin even though she gave birth. (cough* BS *cough)

To answer TG's question:

DNA would be similar to 50% of Mary and 50% of some highly intelligent man who boned a real virgin and didnt have to pay child support.

Wasnt that a nice story??

B the storyteller

Bolo

Time to put on my kevlar and fire-resistant cloak. Everyone TAKE COVER!!! Pray that we don't see a certain Heavy roll over the horizon.

Damn Bolo, first you hate tattoos and piercing, now this flame-bait. I know you mean to be funny, but dang that's cold. Have a beer or something.

- BombJames Bomb

LOL Bolo. You are certainly not timid about stirring the beans eh? , "Bolo" must be an acronym meaning "Balls Of Lead Ore" because you really have some heavy balls to throw THAT post into the mix!!! LOL. This could be interesting.

@James, Your first post is very funny.... Your second post admonishing Bolo? Sorry James My Dear... I don't see much of a delta between Bolos statement and your "Bob, you sneak up behind her while she is kneeling and deliver this package." Isn't there something in the bible about not downloading on thy brother for talking scrappy when thou are guilty of talking scrappy thyself? Just a joke, maybe a few rungs down the ladder than your joke, but a joke none-the-less.

@ROGUE,

Interesting. Unfortunately your perspective includes all of the old tried and true religious paradox leaving us with no option other than to have faith in that which we simply cannot prove. I did not know that Jesus flesh and blood took a hike to heaven as well.

@ALL, My first semi-anti-religious rant in months....I have to say, being a person that has taken screenwriting classes, I am continuously shocked at the solutions the bible throws in to every plot twist. No-one in their right mind would craft a story with so many loose ends and then beat the readers intelligence into the ground by tying up every single plot issue with a copnvenient miracle, or GodSwill, or Faith based answers. Really quite laughable.

It is a really good thing for the bible that it came out when it did, because these days the plot issues would cause the bible to be scoffed at, ridiculed, and taken out of circulation.

I actually believe that Jesus was a living person... Why? I don't know. But I am again struck by another plot bandage of biblical proportions with the notion that God chose to suck up Jesus dead body when he accepted Jesus soul into heaven. Just another way to keep the proof out of reach.... Argh.

Katherine

Jesus' DNA would have been 100% Mary's. You have to remember that God is God and wouldn't need to actually bump uglies with Mary and it happened way before the advent of David Crosby and turkey basters. ;b

Chuck

Hmmmm, maybe god never did exist, but made it so we thought he did.... But wait, if he didn't exist, how could he? And if he did exist, why would he need to make us believe that he did, we'd know, right?

But, if god DIDN'T exist, and wasn't around to make us believe in his existance, then who's the crazy moron who made him up?

Heh, I got a headache.... I'm gonna go lay down.

Okay, here we go...

Jesus was a great teacher, a preacher and a prophet. Historical fact, ancient historians have written about Jesus and about the subsequent people of faith that followed him to be quite the pain in the ass for the Roman regime. All Christians should be killed and put to the same punishment as the one they follow wrote one historian/Roman Advisor.

With the conversion of Constantine, the faith of the oppressed became the faith of the oppressor, or the religion of the Roman empire. All biblical interpretation since has been one of power, control, and code based. The Bible was never meant to provide you with an "answer", it was meant to show you that God is active in the lives of people. The Hebrew people were just the context. Jesus did not want to control, God does not want to control or oppress anyone. Jesus Christ came to set people free from whatever crap they were living in them, to let them know that no matter what circumstance you may be in, that Christ will set you free. And that means everyone.

Christianity is no longer an active faith, at least in the lives of many whom profess to be Christian or spiritual or whatever. Most people, at least in my experience are fed up with the BS that their pastor fed them, or at least the answers that were provided in confirmation class, sunday school what have you were insufficient to prove that God existed, but yet they still adhere to some form of spirituality per se. The Scriptures are not about answers, or writ law, or what have, it is a testament to what God can do for people even though people continually screw it up.

So to bluntly answer TG's question, Jesus' DNA will be just like your DNA, because you were created in the same manner as he was. Jesus showed us that God still gives a crap even though God shouldn't and completed the work that he had to by giving up the ghost as someone so eloquently called it. The reason you cannot see Jesus now, is because God chose to act in history through people. The great preacher, at his ascension became Jesus the preached. And God chooses to come through you through the Word that is preached and the Scriptures that are read aloud to this day. Preachers still muck it up, writers of the Bible mucked it up, we still screw up. But through all that God still chooses to use you, even though you may not like it, or even acknowledge it, for the good of all creation. And this creation has been reclaimed by God through Scripture, through preaching through people, and through Christ.

Is it logical? No. Here's one addendum: IN the book Black Elk Speaks, BLack Elk describes the coming of the white buffalo calf woman, the one who brings the sacred pipe to the Lakota, in an eloquent story and ethical dilemma. At the end of the story he says this, "I do not know if what I have said happened in the way that I have described, but I do know that it is true".

I do not know for sure if the literal translation of the SCriptures is what this world needs, but I do know that the Testament of God's love for us, shown for us in Jesus Christ, is true.

Peace,

Memphis.

@TG: Oops! I did NOT mean to put that image into people's head, but after re-reading the post, it sure does look like I meant that Bob "jumped" Mary. Yeek, good call, TG. I meant that he just sort of "delivered" the material into her in a rather non-tactile way. Sorry for the scary image guys, I would never mean to create such a scene of Mother Mary.

Yah, maybe I got a little thin-skinned. It's strange, but I don't really mind if people poo-poo the existence of Jesus or question God's motives, but it always feels like a low-life sucker-punch to me if someone decides to say something disparaging about Mother Mary. I mean, she did not exactly lead the easy life with this burden, so it seems out of place to say that she deceived the world just so she could lead such a rough life.

Anyhow, I am more than familiar with Bolo's in-your-face humor with the attitude of "you know its funny, you're just scared to admit it!" It just seems he's swinging a bigger stick today, so I hope nothing crappy happened to him recently.

As for the loose-ends, I think it lends a tad more credibility to the Bible that it is composed of many people's recounts of what they saw. If it was a fictional piece of work, than there would be no contradictions. However, each author in each book of the Bible will see things differently, so you are going to have loose ends. Of course, this is why the Bible-literalists drive me nuts.

@Nathan: I remember that Jesus said, "You believe in me because you have seen, but blessed are those that have not seen, yet still believe." I don't know, I guess God doesn't want to have to constantly perform parlor tricks in order for us to care about him. However, you'd think a LITTLE advertising wouldn't hurt.

With how many full-fledged religions of different Gods (each one claiming to be the one ruler of the Universe), it is painfully obvious that we are able to create our own religions. Who knows, maybe the original author is waiting in the next plane of existence, just so he can laugh at each religious zealot for "falling for it." However, illogical nut that I am, I still believe that my religion is mostly right on the mark.

<Shifts attitude gears>

@Chuck: If Jesus is a 100% clone of Mary, does that make him the first transvestite? Gender is part of that "code" you know. XD

- BombJames Bomb

Its funny...people bash gays and support racism here and all I do is make light of the invisible man myth and I get shocked readers..

B

I agree w/ Bomb here 110%

First, it depends on your interpretation of religious scriptures. "He" could be spiritual, and not even organic. Second, people still argue about how this "jesus" of theirs came to be. Magical virgin? Pfft, I think not, sir! X/

Rofl

/adapt

Critical Impulse

Last edited: Sunday, June 20, 2004 at 3:24:06 AM

@ JB: You misunderstand me, He is not a clone of Mary. Being God, he could look or act any way that he wanted in spite of the DNA!

Smith?

@tg

It should be your semi-anti-people rant in months... God didnt write a book for us to find while taking a sunday stroll through the park. It was written by people, and compiled into one book by people and still many books not in the bible, your animosity should be with humans as a imperfect being lead by their fears, those "religious" leaders who are saying gays are bad is because of their fear, manifested by their children becoming gay, one might think it would have something to do with passing their DNA into the future. It just maybe that god loves gay people just as much as unhappy people. We will never know but it shouldnt stop u from living your life that way.

The people who would scoff, ridicule, and remove it out of circulation would be the ones prising, repenting, and puting that same book back in circulation, if they were staring death in the eyes, the only time a faithless person believes in god is when it convenient for them i.e. Some crazy guy standing in your kitchen with a butchers knife in his hand, im sure the first words is something like, "oh god please help me". As they pray for a mirical they notice a loaded gun on the counter then unload a clip on him, then they start to think was that a miracle or coincindence, they put two and two together and realize that they never owned a gun, so it had to be a miracle, than it hits them... Like a slap that is so hard snot and drool expels from the nose and mouth. They realize that there is a god... It take something like that to convert some people but not all, like I said maybe just coincindence but I think there is a greater being then us. The proof is not phyiscal its spiritual we dont have an instrument to measure or test it yet.

Maybe one day...

As always VASH, It is interesting to hear your perspective. Thanks for the reply...

Katherine

Ill need visual documentation.

50% Mary, 50% Archangel Gabriel

Wasnt it Archangel Gabriel who came unto Mary?

/adapt

Critical Impulse

@ tg

Np...

Supernatural is defined, according to good dictionaries...

Edit: Excuse me, I think I left my hat. Don't bother, I'll see myself out...

:)

Last edited: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 at 11:47:12 AM

<checking diesel...switch...rum-rum-rumbling>

@TG - You've GOT to lay off the herbs, baby. XD That's where this stuff is coming from, right? Am I right or am I right? I'm right, right?

How to humor TG? <sigh>

This is a hard question to answer since if you actually found Jesus' bones and did a DNA test, then you'd find that Jesus was 50% Mary and 50% someone else, either Joseph (doubtful) or Bolo's man on the grassy knoll. Why, because I think finding Jesus' bones makes him 100% man and that's the end of the story and the Christian faith.

Christianity doesn't hinge on Jesus' virgin birth or his miracles or his good works philosophy of love thy neighbor. It comes down to why he went to the cross and died the death he died and the purpose it served as well as his following resurrection. The resurrection shows us (dare I say, proves to us) that Jesus was who he said he was, the Son of God, and that he has power over sin and death.

As far as the second question, where did Jesus' body go? It went to Heaven.

First, let's all read John 20 and John 21 . Here we see Jesus interacting with his disciples and other folks after his resurrection. He's eating with them and they're touching him and hugging him so he has a physical body. But, he's doing weird stuff too like appearing and disappearing. In Acts 1 Jesus is with the gang when he floats up and away after saying good-bye. Some angels appear and basically say, "Get moving, he's coming back later."

So Jesus was with his people for over a month before leaving and during that time he interacted with them in a physical manner. As Christians, we look forward to the day when we're transformed as well. 1 Corinthians 15 goes into more detail concerning this.

So, there's a nutshell response to a drug induced...er...curiosity induced question. :)

Clearly they had much better drugs in those days eh Rabby?

I, not knowing that Christ's body conveniently vanished...er... "went to heaven", simply asked the question of what would happen if they found his bones? Not too drug induced, more of a childishly simplistic question.

Since the writers of the bible wrote a book which targets the intelligence of an undereducated society in relatively primitive times, I keep thinking that modern technology might be able to prove or disprove the variety of grand claims made by the imaginative few who quilled out the pages. God the bible is lucky it was published when it was....

But I will be darned if that is possible since it seems as if every stitch of evidence from the bible has mysteriously vanished. Even the flesh and blood of our savior was not real... Hmmmmm..... WAIT! Rabby, you said...

If Jesus was not Man (or dare I say that he wasn't human?), why was he Born of a woman? Why did he have a childhood? I am sure there will be some eloquent and poetic answer to this question which will be totally unverifiable.... But I am curious as to what that answer would be.

Maybe Jesus was an alien and the perceived angels were really just his alien pals coming to bring him to a celestial bar? I could float that story and it would be just as valid as anything in the Bible, certainly just as verifiable eh?

See, now I never intended this thread to get under my skin at all, and it still hasn't, but the surprise plot twist that Jesus' BODY was taken to heaven (leaving yet again no physical proof for the story) came as a surprise that made my hair stand up a bit. I guess I am a fool in that I keep being surprised by the convenient plot resolutions to every tale in "da-Bibble".

Katherine

Last edited: Monday, June 21, 2004 at 2:00:52 PM

Here we go againand this time it was my friggin fault. Dammit. :S

Actually, the alien concept has been bounced around as well. Rather interesting connections. And, just like religion, there is no way to disprove that theory as well! Read up on the Arc of the Covenant, you will find quite a few references to it being a Static-Charge battery. Kind of fun stuff to read through and make you wonder.

Jesus was a man. States it quite plainly in the Bible. That was the whole point: for God to be born as man, and then take away sins in his death (grossly simplified). He just came and went in an unusual way.

As for lack of evidence, well, theoretically there is a cloth with his face on it, though its probably pretty tattered after 2000 years. His death garments (with blood) were left behind in the tomb. And (of course) you can get all excited about the Holy Grail concept. However, God did not leave bones behind to be desecrated. A good thing, because I'm sure we would truly not handle it well if we found them. There would be wars just on how the bones should be handled.

I like to daydream what will happen to this world if we ever develop a machine that will allow us to view the history. I'm sure many religions will try to shut down the project for being "unnatural." Can you just imagine it? Gather around everyone, lets see just how literal the book of Genesis is! I swear, I think a literal view of our history would terrify the people of this world a lot more than a visit by Aliens! I would just LOVE to be able to zoom in on that bread&fish basket and see what the heck was going on when he fed all those people. Ooh! Ooh! Who wants to see the burning bush talk to Moses!

The infuriating thing is that it always seems that the technology to prove/disprove religion is always the most difficult to obtain. You ever wonder if it is that way by design? I'm serious! We can build things atom by atom, split atoms, create personal "suns" in our hyper-accelerators, "see" to the edge of the universe, send machines to explore distant planets, bend the speed of time through acceleration...

Yet we can't get a picture of history. We can't even get an accurate age of an object. We can't perfectly and definitively translate an old document. We can't even trace our own origins. Why is to so damn hard, compared to the other crazy stuff we have going in the labs? It's like certain limitations were literally built-in to keep us blind. There are people who believe that the whole "speed of light" glitch is to to keep us from messing with the other inhabited worlds that God (or other Gods) are ruling. Chew on that theory for a minute.

I'm babbling and procrastinating from work, so I'll leave it on that note. Yes, I do believe in God, but I understand why others don't. Cya.

- BombJames Bomb

@TG - In a thread, long, long ago you wrote that you had been "Baptist, Christian, Mormon" along with a few others, but when you ask questions here you act like you have absolutely no idea about what the Christian faith is all about. What up wit dat? It would be nice if I could reference something that you had once understood just so I would have a starting point to build from.

Anyhoo, did you do the reading assignment? (Just curious.)

There's this God magic going on is all I can say. Jesus was fully God and fully man at the same time. Jesus didn't come into existance during his conception within Mary, but had been with the Father (God) since...well, forever. His birth was God coming to dwell with man as man. So, yeah, I suppose he had DNA at that point, but to attribute any percentage between God vs Mary is purely speculation. He may have just taken the egg and made it start dividing having created the additional chromozomes as necessary.

Now the thing is, the absence of Jesus' body IS the proof that he is who he said he is. Jesus told the crew that he was going to die and rise again on the third day, but the boys weren't hearin' that see? They were expecting him to kick the stinking Romans out and set up his kingdom right away, so they weren't picking up on the clues. It was only after his resurrection that they started to get the picture. I mean, had Jesus said he was going to arise and then after three days he's still in the tomb, I would think that would've taken the wind out of the disciples sails. And I'm sure the Romans and Jewish leaders would've produced the body of Jesus pronto in order to quell the rumors of Jesus' resurrection. Had the disciples taken the body, I really think the Christian faith would have been a lot different. Jesus' would be in a glass casket somewhere on constant display while hopefuls kept vigil waiting for his resurrection.

I think you're trying to judge the Bible using scientific evidence instead of historical evidence. They are two different things (as you know), so you can't test Jesus' DNA just like we can't test Mohammed's DNA or Plato's since we don't have them.

Here's where I would like to draw on your experience with the Mormons vs the Baptists. If you remember, the Mormons don't publish a map of their holy lands while the Baptists (and other Christians) do. So I could see you saying that the Mormons don't have a stitch of evidence, but at least Christians have locations that are archeologically available for inspection. And the Bible has the Dead Sea Scrolls and many other old manuscripts for everyone's inspection while the Book of Mormon's golden plates have mysteriously disappeared and there are no other translations (but many, many edits). Perhaps you're confusing the two faiths?

Last edited: Monday, June 21, 2004 at 3:49:47 PM

TG - Is that you in the new PYRO AV Link Professional ad in DV magazine? ;)

Rabby, LOL, don't get me started on the Mormons!!!!! I tried out a lot of religions, but I couldn't embrace any of them. I usually stopped short as soon as the BS got too deep.

Mormons:

Oh, I can't even go there....

Scientology with 8 million devout followers worldwide....

"NOOO Xemu!" (Tyrannical leader of a confederation of planets), "please don't put us Thetans on one of your planets and blow it up..... NNNNOOOOOO" (boom)..... Hey, our collective Thetan energy is floating through the universe for millions of years...... Hey! That little blue planet over there looks pretty cool.... Great, now we are humans on the planet, but you can call us Operating Thetans.

Other:

"My life sux for all the sins I committed in a PREVIOUS life"

"My friend died because of my sins"

"That incredibly shitty thing that just happened to you is gods will"

"Join us or burn in hell for eternity"

"When that meteor flies over, we will munch some poison and our souls will be lifted onto the meteor and we will be taken to paradise"

"Jonestown is Mecca"

"David Karesh IS Jesus"

"Fly those planes into the towers and you will be in gods favor.....not only that, you get a bunch of virgins in heaven."

Yep, God works in mysterious ways.

Katherine who is having a spiritual breakdown and really needs to stop talking about this stuff before I make permanent enemies.

Last edited: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 at 12:28:30 AM

44s take on religion?

Good religion requires true faith. Faith is a personal belief and seldom logic- or reason-based. You either got faith, or you don't. Sometimes you can develop faith -- sometimes you can't. Those that have faith, believe everyone should. Those without faith, often envy those that do.

--44 (faithless and envious)

@44: Heh...yah, I'm real envious of those that killed themselves when the meteor flew by. :P

@TG: Lol. Amusing quotes to each religion. That's almost joke-list worthy. Let's see, technically I guess I'm in the "Join us or burn in hell for eternity" group, though my beliefs tend to be slightly skewed from the conservative Catholic.

I wouldn't worry about making permanent enemies in this forum. It would be a depressing place indeed if everyone had to agree. A bit of banter is always fun!

A spiritual breakdown? No problems. Just fill up on new spirits! I highly recommend NewCastle Dark Brew. I don't know if it'll make you feel more righteous, but you'll believe yourself to be enlightened! It certainly makes me feel like everything is forgivable as well. (Well, until the morningI did WHAT?)

- BombJames Bomb

@TG- You forgot one.

"Send me a million dollars now, or you'll all burn in hell for eternity!" :)

OM

@44 - Sounds like you need a hug. :)

If you're serious about seeking some logical and reasonable discussions for faith, then give this site a chance. I can understand what you're saying since I've been in the same boat from time to time. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense, but then that's common to life in general. However, to counter my times of doubt, there's also been those times of enlightenment and revelation when I've felt the love and presence of God in my life. If it wasn't for my relationship with God and my experience of Him, I would've left the faith a long time ago.

To me, the bright side is you're open to seeking. Keep looking. :)

@TG - Just like you don't want me to consider the leather-clad bears and boa wearing twinks parading down the streets of San Fran as representative of the gay community, I'd ask the same of you and hope you could focus a bit on Billy Graham, Charles Swindoll, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther and the millions of other Christians who are testaments to God's goodness and mercy.

@JB - Dark Brew??? I think it's time for a few "Hail Mary's", brother. ;) You're right about one thing, everything is forgivable. :)