Just watch it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1211228663574416724&q=obsession+the+movie&hl=en

Did you see the part about the propaganda they air on Arab TV which portrays America as a great evil? They are brainwashing an entire generation of muslims to believe there is no choice but to kill Americans. Horrifying.

Last edited: Monday, September 18, 2006 at 11:06:48 AM

I was waiting for a thread about the Popes statement and I was suprised not to see one. It amazing that the people he "insults" go out and fire bomb churches, Kill a nun and then try and say.. We are not like that.. Hahhaha..

Hey
@ 44. Its pretty doubtful what Americas goverment makes their people think. You say Arab TV protryas America as great evil. How is it you know? Is it explainable really? Hardly anyone in America speaks Arabic, they are just going to believe what they are told? Right?, yes, right. Brainwashing? No, I personally think you are wrong. I say this to justify the religion of ISLAM. Ever had the thought your own goverment could be killing their own people? Yes, your asking your self why? Pointless. But is it really? How? Why? Well, maybe oil is the problem, or maybe its just that America feels the need to try and be the most powerful country in the world. Are we? HELL NO. Not even close. Pinning things on the middle east is pointless. Yes they are causing problems now everywhere but there has to be a reason to it like for everything. Maybe it is becasue we made them the bad guys? You have to stop thinking and believing what you hear and start thinking rational. Think the basics and connect the dots. Sorry if this came out confusing but its pretty hard to make people believe one thing when they already believe another.
.
If you really want to know what Islam is about, run out and get yourself a QURAN .
-FLips.

A couple of good objectivist op-ed articles that puts things in perspective:

Why We Are Losing Hearts and Minds

The Terrorists' Motivation: Islam

Last edited: Monday, September 18, 2006 at 3:16:19 PM

^Seems to argue that the majority of muslims agree with a very radical ideology and can't be reigned in by moderates. You agree?

@Lips. Re-read my post and see if you can spot any irony.

Last edited: Monday, September 18, 2006 at 4:50:33 PM

Yes, I think there is a significant portion of the muslim world that pays lip service to the actions of the violent among them. They probably feel guilty about not being motivated to the action that the koran, the word of god , compels them to. The moderates are infidels who refuse to follow the dictates of the koran, why should they listen to them?

Those that initiate force and those that provide them material support need to be dealt with accordingly.

Last edited: Monday, September 18, 2006 at 6:23:58 PM

Wow that is a chilling video. The parrallels that are drawn between the Islamic extremists and Nazis Germany are/were eye opening. To use ones realigion in order to kill is a powerful thing.

@44
I think that is what a lot of people are waiting for. Is for the moderate or the silent majority to speak up. Doesn't seem that they have been able to reign them in yet. So can they?

Good question, Nuts. I don't know.

I do think there are a lot more moderates than there are extremists, but they're losing ground and influence due, in large part, to this administration's poor decisions with respect to policy in the middle east. The quantity and degree of hatred you see on that video is a new thing. Granted, there have always been extremists, but the dramatic increase we've witnessed in recent years is not the result of a new religion from a newly authored Quran. Muhammad's been preaching the same thing for a long time.

Radical Islam has grown in influence, in large part, as a result of our policies and actions. I say that not to justify or condone...but because it's true and it illustrates the interdependence of this conflict. If bad policy can exacerbate, good policy can improve. Give moderates a greater reason to show their support, and let's see what's possible. It seems to me, from a strategy standpoint, it beats the hell out of trying to kill them all.

Unfortunately, as Colin Powell recently wrote, the administration's handling of the threat of terrorism -- and more recently its position on the treatment of detainees -- has once again damaged our image worldwide and led many moderates to further question our "moral basis".

Last edited: Monday, September 18, 2006 at 10:42:15 PM

^ It has took this long for you all to realize this?
What about the first World Center bombings?
And the attack on USS Cole?
They have hated us for many years.
Now they want to kill my beloved Pope.
We are at war, like it or not.
KKB

Curious so I ask, why do you love the pope?

!!!

I'll be ready to stand for UAE

My life and my country

Last edited: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 at 3:33:08 AM

I think it's funny that while Muslims are being fed propaganda that portrays Americans as evil, we are being fed propaganda that portrays Muslims as evil.

^When muslims wish to do us harm based on the teachings of the koran, recognizing that fact hardly counts as propaganda.

Tally, What's not to love about the Pope?

@44
I see what you mean. When it comes to the moderates the current administration dealings in that area have been... Well very lacking and in hindsight, wrong. As it comes to the the new hate for us I don't think that is ultimatley new, that has been around for a long time. The bombing on 9/11 and muslims dancing in the street happened with the current administration being in office for just a little time.

I guess the thing that scares me the most about all this is that reading and watching videos about Islam is that what the extremists are doing is part of the realigion. As one of BC's sources pointed out its not that they are hijacking or twistting Islam. They are following it and if you don't well then you deserve to die. I will admit that I am ignorant about Islam, I have also heard about peace in the Koran as well. I think that is what the Pope was trying to say that if you follow the "jihad" part of Islam your going about it the wrong way.

I think your right, we need to give the moderates some type of bone. Let them know we do care, that we will help them. We can seperate the extremist from the moderates.

For one, KKB, I don't know him from the guy that sold me milk on monday. For two, he just showed up like six months ago and he wears funny clothes.
What's to love?
I asked in all seriousness.

I'm really getting tired of this debate and Radical Islam. The Pope's remarks were obviously accurate.

Radical Islam is atrocious, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

It the United States only had, IMO, an adequate leader I think most if not all of the country would be behind an all out war against Radical Islam. Face it, it needs to happen because they're not going to let up.

This notion of negotiating or calling out the moderates in Islam is starting to feel absurd at best. I really don't think it's going to happen, and yes, I've become very pessimistic.

We've had about a dozen or so threads on this forum about how Christianity sucks but none about Islam. Why not?

I've seen not one thread about human rights and oppression of people in what seems to be all Islamic nations. Why not? All I've seen is let's negotiate with the moderates mularkey. BS.

There's a big difference between most of MIddle East and the West. Take notice. We're not great but we're not the MIddle East. That's a really flipping good thing. Most of the Middle East is in all factuality a male dominated and overly oppressive society, plain and simple. We have similar problems here but at least we call things out. No black coaches in NCAA football, segregation, immigration, women in the workplace, male dominated society...

Call me racist. Call me whatever. If you do you're an arse and closing your eyes to what really goes on in most of the Middle East. You're also not recognizing the fact that I'd love for all the people in the MIddle East to enjoy the same freedoms that we do without "dieing by the sword of Islam."

I'm really tired of the BS. We really must wake up. I really wish we had the right leader in place here in the States, I'd be all for an all out war against them if we did. If Radical Islam wants to fight with a sword I say the West has every right to fight them with bombs. To hell with them.

Last edited: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 at 4:04:57 PM

Have you been to the Middle East? I think FatLips is the only one here that has. I think his stance is the most valid.

Yep, seems valid to me. Sorry to laugh, but it is funny.

Are we back to the US Govt. Attacked the Towers? It wasn't the guys who lived among us? It wasn't the guys who right before 9/11 went out on the town and boozed it up? It wasn't the guys who ordered a hooker the night before but declined after they decided it was a bit to much money? Are we talking about those real men of Islam? The ones against prostitution and alcohol? Real followers of Islam they were. No offense 36, but Fatlips' post seems to be from the mind of a seven year old. Harsh but true, sorry.

I've been to Turkey three times. My closest friends are Turks. I'm not sure how that makes my post more relevant. It doesn't IMO. I've never been to Oregon though. Does that help?

Last edited: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 at 1:23:44 PM

@ROGUE
You have never been to Oregon, you are low that is just sad. Thats almost as bad as saying you have a macbook pro laptop with intel dual core, when you don't. Or its like climbing rocks for fun, I mean why do the rocks want a smelly but climbing on them all day.

^^ I'm with ROGUE: Screw the extremists. If they wanna fight, I say bring it on. We'll hand them their asses.
I do think Bush could do a better job with this war. I think he is either fighting with one glove or for some reason his hands are tied. I'd like to see what he could do with both gloves on!!

Ran to this video today. Can't really disagree with this women. Lots of good points.

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

That's not what I want KKB. I don't want them to "bring it on" the West. I simply want it brought on them and ended. I don't want a fight, I want them annihilated by any means possible, now. They've no value. That goes for any extremist and not just Islamic.

Let me elaborate a little please. I feel with a good leader the Islamic Radicals could be well on their way to being eradicated by now. I personally blame Bush and his administration for the way in which he and they have handled this matter. So no, I don't want to see Bush with both gloves off. I don't think he's the right leader for the job.

Last edited: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 at 4:06:29 PM

Bring it one isn't what people who live in blue-state cities are saying, I can guarantee you that. You saying that is like giving someone relationship advice. Easy enough when your hands are clean.
Triv: One of the best things ever. I hate to say it, but I'm surprised she hasn't been killed yet.

BTW everyone, it's not just radical islam. It's radical everything.
http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/
Dis-tur-bing. Just because they are write doesn't make this any less scary to me. Fire with fire? Please. Conviction is a very bad thing.

Disclaimer: I'm sure there jews of equal conviction, but I've met none this side of Jerusalem.

Edit: kkb, no reply?

Last edited: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 at 4:02:34 PM

@ Tally
Little bit of a difference between summer camp and being annoying. Compared to teaching to hate and fire a gun at age 5 to kill.

Interesting, the Jews in Milwaukee seem a little more connected to Isreal......

I submit to you that those differences are snapshots in time, and that the difference between them has the potential to be fleeting in a way whose supposition takes little creativity. If I have to pull from the dialogue in the trailer, I will. As for the Jews in Milwaukee, I wouldn't know—I haven't met them all, but to the possibility my mind is open.

Well you should come up here sometime. I have neighbors and friends that are very "convicted" Jews.

Hey maybe the extremsit should send there kids to "Jesus Camp"?

ROGUE: are you saying we need a Ronnie Reagan type back in office?
I think so. No more BS.

Tally, I will look at your link. Apparently the main focus of radical Islam is the eradication of the Jews. Are their actions justified?

Last edited: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 at 4:59:30 AM

Nuts: Jesus doesn't satisfy that function to us. Though his existence is not denied, he has no role in our mythology. What purpose would J-Camp serve?
Kkb: Define justification. Also, still looking for your explanation on the pope beloved.

Last edited: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 at 9:41:38 PM

Tally,
Justification is someone who is righteous in God's eyes. Yep I blew that one! XD

Nay, I think you just defined self-righteousness, not justification.

There is a reason I won't let that go.

It was hilarious! The pope quotes someone that says Islam " is evil and inhuman." so what do they do? They have violent riots

Tally: I love I have for my Pope is quite simple. He is my leader of the Roman Catholic Church. He is all loving. Including you (even, lol).

He has reached out to the Muslim world to create some dialogue and find some common ground with Islam. Just as Pope John Paul II did with our Jewish brothers and sisters.

And now his life is threatened because he quoted a Pope from 500 years ago.
So he turns around and apologizes when he doesn't need to and he still is made to look like a schmuck. :S

I've thought of starting a post on the subject but really don't have the energy or the time right now.

Ok, your turn.
KKB

The Pope lecture was admirable. I was even surprised by how much he supported the use of reason into religion, while some tenets of Christianity aren't exactly reasonable. Then again, the Pope isn't a fundamentalist, so it might explain why he is able to introduce a great deal of common sense into his faith. Having said that, if the Pope's intention was to enter into a dialogue between the faiths, I don't think it was tactful to quote the Byzantine Emperor saying:
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
I tend to agree with that quote, but you can't pronounce such harsh words as a public figure. The entire quote from the Emperor was explicit enough for him to leave that "evil and inhuman" part out IMO. The Muslim world reacted with its now familiar civilized ways and the Pope while he didn't fully apologize, said the quote didn't in any ways reflect his views. I wish he hadn't disconnected himself so much from the quote because the general idea is right even if the choice of words wasn't the best. Then again it was only a quote within a very elaborate academic lecture.

On how to stop radical Islam from spreading and commit heinous crimes around the world, I just don't know. I don't understand why the movie "Obsession" isn't showing everywhere in theaters. Anyone has an answer? Seems a lot better than Michael Moore's ramblings.

Last edited: Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 8:44:03 AM

Yes. Kill them. They know nothing about reason. Their only reason for living is to kill all us infidels.
OR
we could send Fatass Michael Moore over there and let him give a go at it since he knows everything.

The Pope's lecture was hypocritical. A religious leader arguing for reason is like a scientist prescribing prayer for climate change. Reason and religion don't mix.

Last edited: Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 6:06:55 AM

On topic, this is a pretty good chat from the maher show.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/09/24/bill-maher-and-the-panel-on-jesus-camp/

^ Maher is good there.

Indeed. It's a productive dialogue. The way he responds to what he calls her "condescension" is pretty classic. The whole dialogue there might explain why maybe there will never be a bridge.
"I see a starving man..."
"...but I'm not hungry."

Last edited: Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 11:53:00 PM

Watch the full Jesus camp trailer...horrifying. Both Christianity and Islam are aggressive missionary religions which divide the world into believers and non-believers. They are the two sides of the same coin. Too bad they don't have the wits to see themselves when they look at the other side. They are all non-believers to me.

Last edited: Monday, September 25, 2006 at 1:58:25 PM

I am disappointed by the fact that none of European "leaders" supported the Pope and his message.