Wow! The bad news are piling higher every day. Just read the news, and US Lt.Gen. Peter Chiarelli's farewell news conference (he was in charge of day-to-day combat operation in Iraq).

This is a catastrophe of unprecedented range. At least the Vietnam war did not politically destroy the country - after the US went the country became communist, but there was no implosion of the country nor the region.

It is estimated that 100,000 Iraqis leave the country every month - the equivalent of 1,000,000 american leaving the US every month - to give you an idea. Man!

It's not about 'support the troops' which is just about meaningless and some easy rhetoric; read Chiarelli's report.

Anyway I hope your country will send to the gallow the bunch of blind men that got the world into this. It's about an illegal and unprovoked invasion initiated by a select group of unlected officials, gathered around an incompetent president.

Meanwhile Mr President don't want to talk to the 'Evil' Syria and Iran. Hello? :'( He's going against the bipartisan Iraq Study Group recommendation in that. When is it you'll get rid of the man? He'll so get it easy when he'll retires. Look at Rumsfeld - walking away with impunity, washing his hand of all that blood. How dumb is THAT? 8(

PS What is it with those lunatic suicide bombers anyway? There's some serious wacos out there! :(

Sorry for the nastiness; my heart bleeds tonight. :[

Last edited: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 at 9:08:21 PM

Hugo...rest easy. The situation is on an upswing.

My faith in the american people has been restored. These past mid-term elections has reinvigorated me. Bush is on borrowed time and I look forward to 2008 with an optimism I havent felt in a while. He can be as stubborn as he wants...his days are limited.

I truly believe this new congress got the message the american people were sending and that they will limit the damage from here on out. Dont get me wrong...it wont be pretty, but it could have been worse.

Iraq's future appears to be dismal, and we do have to take responsibilty for that...but it is their future and we should step aside and let them figure it out for themselves. If they want the opportunity afforded to them (despite the awkward way in which it was presented to them) they will fight for it. Recall if you will the way in which we won our own freedom...it was a harsh and bitter battle, only to be followed by an even more bitter civil war. I might add that our own civil war still stands as the leader in american casualties during wartime. Its never pretty but this is how it gets done.

I'm not fan of Bush, but I'm no fan of Congress or politicos either. You don't trust them with your money, but you are willing to trust them with people's lives? Please, get real.

Same thing happened to Korea after the Korean War. Elite academics, merchants, and noblemen left for other countries, where it was safer and had more opportunities. Then the middle to lower class followed suit. This was a crisis until the economic conditions turned around. People abroad made their money and became settled. As Korea's condition stabilized (not necessarily improved right away) and gradually improved, there were more and more people coming back with foreign capital to invest. Rebuilding was a long process, but now there are more Koreans wanting to go back than there was wanting to leave back then. It's a cycle.

Sorry for the impromptu Korean history lesson, but a war, no matter how small, unsettles everything. The common people want quiet and a chance to make a living. They follow where the opportunities are. It will happen in Iraq. They will leave, make money, and find their way back. Some will take longer than others. What every war teaches is patience. Not every crisis has a magic bullet. I think thats the problem of this generation. Anything that takes longer than 4 years is impossible.

As for the Report, Rumsfeld, and all that media stuff, let's wait until it plays out to judge. Remember when General Washington was running away from the British and losing every battle? Not every turn of conflict can be foreseen. We make mistakes, they make mistakes, and in the end what history will judge is the resiliency of the Iraqis. They will have to decide for themselves if any 1 man is going to ruin their heritage.

My 2 cents.

" Look at Rumsfeld - walking away with impunity, washing his hand of all that blood. How dumb is THAT? 8("

Not just impunity, but apparently with the medal of freedom as well. Talking about making something meaningless...he joins George "slam dunk" Tenet in this increasingly dubious honor. What's next?

"It's about an illegal and unprovoked invasion initiated by a select group of unelected officials, gathered around an incompetent president."

Truer words have yet to be spoken. I would add that it's also about a corrupt system, the culmination of 50+ years of anti-democratic, anti-constitutional processes which have created, at least for now, a mechanism by which elected officials act almost exclusively as agents of an imperial plutocracy.

Last edited: Friday, December 15, 2006 at 9:48:40 AM

Nyarl: 50 years starting when? Post WW2? Can you give me some background regarding the anti-democratic/anticonstitutional processes? I'm feeling ya, but I lack the history...i briefly perused the latest Harper's last night...there was some mention of processes congealing into place circa end of the war...Ike himself was specifically concerned about it, and he put it down specifically to the rising military industrial complex...threats to democracy via competing interests of these corporations and their increasing power and access to power...but alas, I fell asleep.

This what you're talking 'bout?

Let's not forget that the US Constitution was mostly written by a bunch of rich white business men. "We the people" never reflected onto the average Joe, rather than implying the ones that were sitting pretty. As it is, many of our "founding fathers" didn't want the common man to have a say in politics. Business interests have always played a big part into American politics with porkers and lobbyists alike. This is not a new concept. Sadly, too many people are ignorant of these facts, thinking this is a new developmnet. Sorry to disappoint you there, but this has been going on for centuries.

^ Keeping in mind our forefathers weren't as good off as you make them, I still think that the general idea of the american constitution is excelent.

However, the people in it can be a little fuzzy somtimes. Or, in Bush's case, moldly with a dead body on top. If there was a real leader who cared about the people in almost every position in our government, the USA would be a much better country. Of course, we need to remind ouselves somtimes that we are truly lucky to have been born in North America. USA and Canada, I think, somtimes forget how blessed they are. Some people think the world has ended when they lose their cell phone. Oh no, you can't call your boy/girlfriend.

Anyway, got a bit off topic. In short, I agree with Hugo.

Last edited: Friday, December 15, 2006 at 12:38:25 PM

There is one thing about this situation that keeps coming up that bothers me that I'd like to comment on here.

We didn't lose the war in Iraq. I know many see the current situation as a continuation of the war, so count is as a loss, but I think it would be more accurate to say that we're failing at nation building or failing in our occupation. If there were still an army to deal with in Iraq and we were fighting them, then you might describe the situation as a loss to them, but that army is long gone since we defeated them.

Perhaps part of our failure is the we didn't anticipate the Iraqi people's inability to sustain a democracy. They're a people who have lived under the subjection of a dictator for so long that its the only lifestyle they understand. While they may want freedom and democracy, they're unable to achieve their desire. I'd liken it to freed slaves after the American Civil War or prisoners released after serving most of their lives behind bars. Even though they were set, they were unable to adapt and chose to return to prison or remain on the plantation. And there's those other knuckleheads who can't just let things be and feel a need to kill people for whatever reason. As long as those guys are blowing up the unemployed, different ethnic groups and the infrastructure, Iraw isn't going anywhere and there's nothing we can do about it.

Maybe the thing we need to do is set up strong, central leader who will lock down the nation once again while we promise aid to rebuild and to come back and bomb the crap out of them if they decide to destablize the region or other such nonsense.

@Nyar I'd say trying to assassinate your father is a pretty good provocation, don't you think?

"U.S. Navy ships launched 23 Tomahawk missiles against the headquarters of the Iraqi Intelligence Service yesterday in what President Clinton said was a "firm and commensurate" response to Iraq's plan to assassinate former president George Bush in mid-April." - Washington Post

If somebody did that to my father, I'd tear him apart with my bare hands. George Jr. Had to have his posse do it for him. Little matter of a few million Iraqis.

As for illegal, who says? The world that hates the US? Or the world that's jealous of the US? Since when do we need permission to invade an enemy in our national interest?

The last part about incompetent president and unelected officials, better that than the corrupt leaders we have in most of the other countries. At least ours bend the rules, not break them. XD

Remember, no matter how incompetent you think he may be, he had people follow him to war they might not have wanted and won. I'd say that's pretty impressive accomplishment. Give me an example of a good leader. I don't see any out there, do you?

Hey Rabman, the US itself did not lose the war, it will never lose the war - in keeping with Clausewitz, whenever you fight on enemy territory, you're not losing the war, but your enemy is. I cringe when I read about the US winning or not; at this stage it's mostly a bruised national ego. The US indeed won the war no matter what, and I agree with 'we're failing at nation building'.

The 9/11 thing was the closest thing to the US 'losing a war', that is sustaining damage in its home country. And some boats sunk in WW2 on the East Coast by German U-Boats. Pearl Harbor too, perhaps. And of course some bloody raids by Canadian militias a while back, 1812 etc. ;)

Thus, the US did not lose the Vietnam war, they destroyed a country and ruin a generation. True that, your country lost 50,000+ guys, but then the Vietnamese lost from 1-3 Millions, so once again, who lost what? Both lost.
It was quite moving when Clinton went back there a few years ago.
It's only Iraq itself that is 'losing the war', or more justly, being destroyed inside out, and fractured around sectarian lines.

The US Civil war is not the best comparison, since the religious element wasn't a factor, nor the ethnic factions like in Iraq. In a sense the US civil was a real civil war, i.e. A population fighting itself, and not a difference; Kurds, Shias, Sunnis, 3 factions there; in 1867 there was North and South, but still t'was all 'americans'.

And yes those bastards blowing themselves up - I mean, get real, how stupid is that to blow oneself up amid unemployed people? Some criminals are manipulating others to commit atrocities. Seems suicide bombing is a local specialty; the black in South Africa never did that even after decades of oppression.

Once again it's not a rant about or against 'America', 'American People', etc. It's about a few bad apples that's seriously ruining the basket. I say: gallows.

@ Guishin: interesting point with Korea. I agree with your post.
@ GetSome: eager for 2008. Hopefully they'll chain the guy in the meantime so that he won't commit more aberrations.
@ SLinky: it's also natural, re. Rich and powerful people as decisions-makers. Always be like that.
@ Proud: 'the american constitution is excellent', yes and do use it: impeachment, etc. It strikes me as utterly weird that after all the neglect and lies there's no swelling movement to impeach the dogs. Clinton was impeached for his love of women; how messed up is that? Ohh big deal, he made out with his secretary. As a frenchmen, I'd give him the Medal of Freedom instead. :)

^what that just tell me is, our government is run by religious fanaticals.

Scary...eeek