The top 6 percent of American citizens own 97% of the entire wealth of the country. These households have an average wealth of $10.2 million and pay only 3.5 percent of their wealth in taxes. By way of comparison, the bottom 40 percent of taxpayers have an average wealth of $1,100 and pay 163 percent of their wealth in taxes.

If all taxpayers paid the same 10.5 percent of their wealth in taxes as median income families pay, the taxes of the lowest 40 percent would be cut by 94 percent while the taxes of the wealthiest would triple.

AMERICA IS AN OLIGARCHICAL PLUTOCRACY DISGUISED AS A REPUBLIC. THE CONCEPT OF AMERICA BEING A DEMOCRACY IS EXPOSED AS A COMPLETE FRAUD.

From 1984 to 2002, the government collected $1.7 trillion more in Social Security taxes than it paid out. The extra money was supposed to go into a fund to help pay for baby boomers' retirements but instead was used to fund tax cuts for the wealthy.

Our country is being controlled by a miniscule few people who are exercising monopolistic fascist rule over the citizenry. For freedom's sake we must do all we can to abolish the Republican Party facade and the lie that it is perpetrating upon America.

http://www.osjspm.org/101_taxes.htm#8

TYPICAL EXAMPLE OF BUSH'S SATANIC LIES BELOW!

An analysis by the Annenberg Public Policy Center's FactCheck.org debunking Bush's claims that Kerry's plans to raise taxes on the richest Americans would increase the tax burden on 900,000 small businesses.

The analysis found that the Bush campaign is counting every rich person who has even $1 of outside business income as a small business owner, even if they have no employees.

Huey Long! XD

Last edited: Sunday, October 10, 2004 at 10:16:12 AM

....is turning over in his grave.

"We have met the enemy and he is us" -Pogo

Let's not attack the most productive members of society. Let us stop seeking to enslave each other with taxes for the "public" good. Why not just let everybody keep what they have earned? If you are talking about people paying for what they get then OK!

Ween - this is supposed to be news? It's been this way for over a hundred years. Ever hear of Robber Barons? Monopolies? This situation is not the Bush administration's fault. They may not be improving the situation, but neither has almost every single administration since the turn of the century.

Well when you can make the trillions disappear like these guy's, into the rich, learjet driving pockets, then claim to the working poor peons that this is good for America, they need more while you work two jobs with no health insurance because nobody gives full time work with benifits, and actualy get these southern rednecks to believe it with a measly thousand dollar porkchop, you rule the world. God is on Bush's side, did'nt you know? Send five dollars.....

Be rich or be dead! XO

One can only be philosophical about this and all inequalities in the world........

Ween - that's called "being a politician". I refuse to target just the Republicans - the Dems and all the others are just as much to blame. Clinton had 8 years, how much did he fix? All the poor have to offer is their votes. The rich have money. Money can buy votes. Guess what the easiest path is?

Good post Ween...i live in a continual state of agitation because of economic inequalities of america...but I also agree with TMO: this isn't a republican only issue...though they are certainly more bald face about it...

Clinton was every bit as bad.

No, this isn't news, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be upset about it. The only way things will ever change is if we get mad enough to try to effect some change, whatever that may be. (I don't have the answers)

@Blind Cide - I'm not sure I understand your comment. You aren't trying to say that all those who are filthy rich are the most productive or most contributive to society, are you? If so, that's totally laughable. Sure there are many who give back, or who got their wealth by good old fashioned hard work, but there are just as many who should be classified as criminals.

Also I agree with above statements that it is not a Republican party problem. It's simply political corruption at it's best. TMO's right, money is power.

@OM

Yes, no matter how people got their money if they are not wise with it (put it to productive use) they will lose it through the expansion of the money supply and the inflation that causes. I would rather have the "filthy rich" person in charge of their money than the government.

Now they do need the courts and law enforcement to back the contracts they use to make money. They should pay for that and what ever other governmental resources they use. But to confiscate their money for any kind redistribution of wealth scheme is a folly.

Criminal actions should be prosecuted.

Last edited: Monday, October 11, 2004 at 1:35:16 AM

I don't think anyone is arguing that their money needs to be confiscated. That hyperbole is a typical attempt to straw man this issue. To some degree, putting federal money into social program is a tad akin to wealth redistribution...but marxism, it isn't.

The extent to which they are taxed is an open question. They reap the rewards of being the top dogs in a capitalist society...but don't make the mistake of assuming that they achieved this status through hard work, as though the playing field was even. Rich people have rich kids....rich kids go to upper crust schools....where they further network with other rich kids with rich parents, and then they get handed high paying jobs. GW bush is an excellent case in point.

He got where he is today despite his abilities and work ethic.

I mean, the myth that all rich people are somehow superior or acquired their wealth through their own means is a goddam laugh. The apologists for this idea always hold up the examples of the bill gates of the world. He's one out of millions. The truth is, money begets money. Wake the hell up.

And while I'm ranting, BC, you said something about "letting people keep the money they earned." this simple statement, parroted, echoed, repeated ad nausem by libertarians and republicans belies either an astounding naivete, or a more astounding greed.

In case you haven't noticed, you are living in what we moderns call a "society." this collective, among other things, keeps you safe from bad people, insulated from calamities, invading armies, and disease. These services cost money. The government also educate you and your children. They build your roads, sidewalks, city parks, pay for your recreational areas, explore and research new ideas to make your life better. They also ensure your civil rights, and attempt to keep others in positions of power from exploiting you (too badly). For this you must pay a portion of your income. This is called a "tax."

If you wish to keep all of your money to yourself, you are going to have to go to montana and hole up with the "freemen." either that or stay the hell out of our schools, libraries, hospitals, parks, off our roads, sidewalks, don't call our police or fire, and don't go bitching about enron et al....

I think the quoted line covers my recognition that taxes can be legitimate.

More to the point of your rant is that the ONLY legitimate purpose of government is to protect individual rights. Taxes collected for any other purpose amounts to slavery.

Yowser bc! Slavery? Kinda extreme I think...

At the root yes, slavery.

We hand over to the government the responsibility to protect us and it therefore has a monopoly on the use of force. That is why government should be as limited as possible. Must our society be forced by government to do that which is good? If so, we are doomed to eventual failure.

Your post got me thinking about it's content today. To examine both the stated philosophy and to distill actual philosophy from actions is also my way of understanding people. I have been ignorant of current affairs lately and I quite enjoyed reading your viewpoint. I have some new dots on my radar.

Quote for the day:
Beer is God's way of saying he loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

;)

Last edited: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 at 10:12:09 PM

BC...did you play any part in the creation of the unabomber manifesto? You're breaking up! You're breaking up!

LOL!

Sorry man, that wasn't fair...lets just say that your remarks have caught me by surprise...and got me a tad agitated. I actually appreciate that point of view...now that I've digested it a bit. Keep it coming BC! And don't mind my rants...i get a bit petty at times...i'll try to keep it under wraps. My problem is that I haven't had a decent crap in three days...

Btw...i think the liberals are on the verge of outlasting the conservatives yet again. I mean in this forum. Is it the force of our arguments, or just sheer force alone?

At least now we got a cagey anarchist in BC to keep things going....problem is...its hard to argue with an anarchist because they are such utopians!

@ Stinky

I ain't going "no-damn-where". LOL Seriously, I think we all thought the debates would have gotten us all hopping - only problem is it appears as though we covered 99% of it 30-60 days ago.

Been busy bro - but I's listenin'.

@ ween

Before I deconstruct your stance in your initial post (which kinda sounds like one of those "send me $10 for the book!" emails / infomercials), you need to quote some credible sources.

Thanks,

Chief

Last edited: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 at 10:21:55 PM

I'll try my best Stinky but the truth is I usually don't have the brain capacity for minutia, so I have to simplify.

Sorry about all the smilies, they weren't showing up when I was typing.

P.S. Can you get Pabst Blue Ribbon beer where you are? That stuff always gets the log jam flowing for me.

Giggle...if only I could BC! I think I built up a dependency on that shit back in the states....sigh. Man, the mental picture you are creating of you in my head just keeps expanding! Another guy I'd like to drink with...

I'll forgive the smilies if you forgive my bitchiness.

Chief: just waiting to pounce eh?

Ready & waiting! You know how it - got behind at work and playing hell catching up.

Hope all's well on your end of the planet.

Yours too!

HELL no...most raised with a golden spoon up their arse.

Ween the system is designed this way on purpose. The rich designed it for the rich.

My solution: I HAVE to be rich....no other way to live. Failed so far but im still trying. I thought I did well to get good grades and graduate from a good university but osama took care of that before I graduated.

Right now I lift bags of animal feed for a living. You can bet ill do whatever it takes to start making some cash. When I do I will go from democrat to republican in a heartbeat.

I just wish the state would send police to my house and rob me each week. At least I would understand where the money is going. Taking it out of my weekly paycheck which isnt shit to start with is WORSE THAN ROBBERY

B

Last edited: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 at 12:41:20 AM

B, :-)

BC doesn't appreciate the level that government HAS to get involved. As a species were are pretty bad at making personal choices. Gotta have some goverment, hell, otherwise our neighbors would be taking their dumps in our yard when we weren't looking. "We don't need stinking sewers!"

So to cheer you all up I'll share an email I received today. We can all pretend we're big-shots; don't forget to wash your hands first:

FROM: investingnewsletters@z2c.net

Forbes.com invites you to join a unique group of individuals who are having a real influence on the design and delivery of the products and services they use.  The Affluent-Dynamics Panel is made up of sophisticated individuals---individuals like you who exercise their influence by participating in occasional Internet surveys as well as in group discussions at locations near their home.  Over 3,600 have already joined the Panel!

Forbes.com is partnering with Affluent Dynamics to conduct research among the truly affluent. Being a panel member will not take up a lot of your time.  It takes only a couple of minutes to join.  Once you join, you will have the opportunity to participate in 4-6 online surveys a year.  Each survey will take a few minutes to complete at your leisure over a secure Internet connection.  No one will call you.  For each survey you complete, we will give you 3000 frequent flyer miles that can be used for travel on major airlines within the U.S. Or around the world.

As a Panel member, your personal information will remain completely secure and your privacy will be protected.  Information submitted by Affluent-Dynamics Panel members is used for marketing research purposes only and never for any solicitation or selling purpose. 

To join or to learn more about the benefits of being a Panel member, please click on the following link:  http://www.affluent-dynamics.com/whyjoin.html (Note:  If you click on the link and the Web Page does not open, please copy and paste the link into the address line of your Web browser.)

Thank you for your time and we hope you find the Panel as interesting and rewarding as have hundreds of others.

James Albright
Affluent Dynamics, LLC

Last edited: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 at 1:05:22 AM

We are all paying too much in taxes. I've been dirt poor, middle, and upper middle class. Of the three I was dirt poor the longest. The only time I didn't pay taxes was my dirt poor days. My family couldn't help me with college or anything else as they are poor. I spent 4 yrs in the marine corps and with GI bill and working at UPS loading trucks paid my way through college. My grades in college and my GRE scores got me into a good grad school with a research scholarship. After that I worked for someone else for 2 years while launching my own business.
I own my own company now and employ 5 developers full time with medical and dental plans. What my corporation paid out last year in taxes would have employed 2 developers. Am I rich? No. I live in a modest 3 bedroom house. My family owns 1 car (4yr old subaru forester). My personal computer is a PIII 500MHz. My office is absolutely spartan aside from things which directly affect employee health and productivity: high quality monitors,ergonomically correct desks, and aeron chairs. Any extra money I make goes back in to my company as I struggle to grow it and hire people.
When Bush talks about helping small businesses he is talking about me. I create good high paying jobs with great benefits for US Citizens. I don't have to do that. I could ship all the work to india or some other place, make huge margins and hardly work. I would create more jobs if my tax burden was less and be able to deliver to my customers at a lower more competitive price.

Lol Bolo, ever think of being a trader at the Chicago mercantile exchange or a stock broker? You've got the brain for numbers and seem to do well in a competitive adrenalin driven environment.

Seems like a whole lot of TT'rs in the tech trade are suffering job woes these days :(

Dash...i don't understand this tax thing in regard to how small businesses are affected. How does it work?

@Flea - *sniff* I wish I was affluent. :'(

Stink:

My dad has been self employed for 35 years. It works like this:

If you make any money, the government gets dam near half of it.

If you make no money you dont pay a whole lot but you keep nothing.

The current system is hell on small businesses. If you make enough to hire more people and purchase more goods you will have to spend it in taxes instead.

If you dont make money you still pay and just have nothing.

Unless you have a product or service that cant be duplicated its hard as hell to stay out of the red.

Even if you find your niche good luck getting a loan to get started. Since the interest rate is down so low banks arent making shit on loans. To compensate they are VERY picky about who they will give a dime to. Its hard to establish that good of credit without a loan so if you havent already had a loan in your history you are screwed unless you sign over all your worldly possessions for collateral.

B

That blows bo...but why are small business owners taxed as individuals...shouldn't they be in another tax area...like corporations are?

@ dash

Great post - congratulations!

@ Stinky

When Bush refers to Sub-S corps, LLC's, LLP's, and the like, he is talking about a business' legal structure. In general, he is referring to anything other than a C-corp (two types of corporations from a tax standpoint - chapter C, and subchapter S). C-Corps basically pay taxes as if they were a living individual. The other types of organizations income flows throught them to the owners / shareholders via either a schedule C or a K-1.

Examples:
A sole proprietor (Chief DBA Chief's Lawn Care) is taxed the same way - on a sched C.
An LLC (First Prime Capital, LLC) would have the revenue going to the members, based on percentage, on a K-1.
An S-Corp (Stingfingers Sushi Bar, Inc) would basically be the same as an LLC. I'm not quite sure about an LLP (limited liability partnership), but it's my understanding that it's basically the same except for depreciation expense.
A C-Corp (Blind Cide's Micro-Brewery, Inc.) would pay taxes as if it were an individual - i.e. Pay taxes after expenses...which would include returns to stockholders.

It's at this point that $200K sounds like a helluva lot of money, but it really ain't.

Case in point:

We lease / finance to what are typically referred to as "owner-operator" tractor trailer drivers. These are the guys that own their own truck (and sometimes trailer) and contract to a manufacturer, larger freight company, etc., for either an amt per mile or for a percentage of the freight bill of the load they are hauling. Lately, you may have seen some of these guys "striking" the ports in Calif., Va, and FL due to high diesel prices.

These guys are typically hardworking, family oriented, spending 2/3 or more of their time on the highway. They bust their ass so that they can pay payments for thier equipment, maintenance, insurance, fuel, permits, fuel tax (state & federal), tolls, tickets, etc. (Side point - these guys' liability insurance is 10-20k a year...this is due to TRIAL LAWYERS that go after these guys for no other reason than the fact that they are required by law to have liability limits of at least $500k).

I shit you not I have several clients (no names to comply with Bank Secrecy Act) who gross upwards of $300-400k a year and by the time they are done with all of the above they would qualify for food stamps.

These are just an example of the guys that are singlehandedly bringing this economy back - small businesses buying equipment and hiring people. I have personally hired several people in the last 12 mos - and if things continue to work out (i.e. More working capital due to the lower tax burden) I intend to continue the expansion.

@ B

Good to see you killer! There is a finance company in Colorado which specializes in leasing / financing startups - let me know if you want the contact info - you have my email from the leagues.

@ Chief - wow...pretty close on most of those tax items, although your comment about the depreciation expense does not make sense. There are many distinctions between the tax treatment of S Corps and LLP/LLC, but most people just assume because the income "passes-through" they are the same.

Well said yoda.

!

Thanks chief, still trying to decipher that...

Basically those over 200,000 rich guys that are being talked about, are not. My corporation grosses way over 200,000 but 5 employees in the 80-90K range,
hardware, office expenses, travel, etc eat through that very fast. I'm not an accountant I hire that out to my brother-inlaw he does the best he can for me with write-offs, tax-shelters, etc. I still got hosed for six figures in taxes. I was wrong about my numbers earlier, I could have hired 4 additional developers. And no I didn't skim all the profits and cut myself fat checks I made the same amount as my top developer (less after I dumped some of my personal income back into the company) and worked a hell of a lot more hours than he did. Will I throw up my hands and go back to the corporate world? No. My employees are like family to me. Knowing I help them put food on their tables and give them decent incomes which allow one parent to stay home and raise their children keeps me going. But if people keep pushing to tax people like me even more then my employees and I have to work longer and harder to bring home less. You can't tax "The Corporations". They pass the cost right along as increased costs to consumers, reduced wages, increased work hours, or decreased product quality. Small businesses get hammered by the current tax system and it keeps getting worse because everytime someone wants to raise taxes on us they lie, call it taxing the "Extremely wealthy", and the bill gets passed. This is great for the large corporations and the people who truly are rich as the government
is helping them kill off competition from small business so they don't have to compete on price and can continue to treat their employees like cattle because there are no good jobs anywhere else. When you hear someone say "We're going to tax the wealthy" everyones initial response is "good idea". But politicians lie and then go hammer the smaller businesses. If they go after the truly rich and large corporations they are attacking a very powerful group
and their political careers will suffer.

Gotcha...thanks dash and chief. I get it now

Hmm, been paying taxes myself now for 32 + years. Each year my taxes are determined after all my deductions. Have always wondered what it would be like to have to pay the taxes on the back pages of the tables but have never got close. Maybe someday I'll be fortunate enough. Do know that every time there was a Republican sitting in the oval office I lost buying power. Hell, it took ten years for me to break $10 an hour mark working in the lumber mills in my state and Regan took it back after he creamed the unions. After plant closures and a forced re-education period I was back in the money again (but still not close to those back pages). Another Republican in office now... Yep, back to wages I was earning pre Regan. Now that I am sorta eyeing the big slide out the current Pres is determined to gut pensions, health care, and SS.

What I find funnier than hell is how many poor white rednecks in my state are staunch Republicans. LOL, some I know have even have had to rely on the Oregon health plan to stay alive and bitch about the "poor" sucking us dry and the Liberals taxing us to death. Instead they should be thanking their lucky stars some Liberals had the foresight to provide them health and dental care and wake up to smell the coffee. WE have a choice to determine HOW our tax money is spent. I think Dash exhibits the spirit that is common in most of us. We work hard to provide the necessities, and if lucky enough some of life's luxuries. But for the life of me I can't figure out how the publicans have conned people into believing that if they just work a bit harder for a bit less they too will reach the pinnacle. I also can't figure out how it is OK for us to ship our jobs overseas so we have to compete with even lower wages. I tell ya, future Christmases are looking grim. Did anyone else ever get the "guns or butter" lecture in school?

In typical republican style, this crusador was exposed

Great piece at http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/10/14/sinclair/index_np.html

Good post flea...where abouts in oregon are you? If it wasn't for portland, eugene, ashland/medford, oregon would be another red state populated by dumbass rednecks getting manipulated by the republican culture-war con game.

Dumb-assed rednecks...i grew up with them too. So easily manipulated, especially if you can work the hate and resentment angle. If that doesn't work, throw in some guns, or some god....

LMAO

Dash:

Excellent post. Would like to add something for clarity.

When large C-corps get taxed they pass it on to the consumer like dash said....but small businesses cant do that since they starve to compete $ wise with the larger businesses. They just eat it. Large businesses have enough volume to still get a good cut.

The result? Big businesses buy all the small ones who cant survive, making them even bigger.

The feed business im in is no different. Farmland was bought by land o lakes. Purina was bought by land o lakes. Consolidated and moormans bought by adm, cargill is gonna buy manna pro.....

U know what a bitch it is to figure out who to get feed from? Jeeeez

The best part is when these aforementioned businesses start turning smaller feed stores that they bought out into little distributorships. This way half my customers can go around me and buy direct from the suppliers. Makes me feel good when they call up and ask for the exact product they always buy from me so that they can be sure to get the same thing from my suppliers.

Even funnier....my dad came up with his OWN horse feed....had his formula nationally registered. Every bag of it that sold we got a cut. When land o lakes bought out farmland they decided they wouldnt do that. They quit making our feed. Then a month later they "REVISE" their feed to almost EXACTLY match mine.

Now I can barely beat the competition to sell my OWN GD feed.

Bottom line...all you can do is try to offer unique products and services with a superior methodology and hope people dont go somewhere else or steal your ideas.

If it works and u make some $ dont get comfortable because as soon as you do someone else steps in and gives you competition.

B

Scaffold Law . Only here in NY, lets workers sue their employer unconditionally. Made our comp rates go to 78%. Every measly $10.00 we can offer someone, we pay $17.80, and that's just in comp. We would gladly give it to the employees if we could. This has also created numerous BS lawsuits. More than I can count have gotten hurt intentionally to file a claim and lawsuit because they know they will win, even if they were at fault. So now our insurance is up over 300%, and there is only one agency in the country that will cover this area at all. God help us if we ever do have a claim. On top of this, raw material costs have gone crazy. Plywood, lumber, insulation and the like have more than tripled over the past two years. China is buying it as fast as we can produce it, much is going to Iraq, and some is being sent (justly) to Florida. I was buying plywood for $7.00 a sheet two years ago, now it is over $25. Guess who we are forced to pass this onto? And steel, forget it. Even if you can afford it, good luck. It's only a matter of time before the rates of the 80's kick in, inflation is eminent and in a bad way. What you'll save in taxes will go somewhere else, and the Fed will only be able to hold rates for so long. After that, you better be able to whole up in an apt somewhere, 'cause the homeownership thing will be gone.
To further show some stupidity, our powers that be approved the Fast Ferry . A boat we have to pay for to shuttle us from here to Toronto. A huge expense and paid for by tax dollars, we have school nurses being laid off while this thing sits guarded by Federal Marshals impounded for some ungodly amount of money each day. Talk about well planned! The thing was in service less than two weeks. Oh well, at least the Canadians have something legitimate to laugh about now.

Last edited: Saturday, October 16, 2004 at 4:28:00 AM

Coos Bay stinkfingers, don't be fooled by the picts, they show industries that have pretty much all gone down the poop-chute. Almost all the mills in my area are closed and demolished. It was once the largest lumber producing area in the WORLD! I was soundly admonished (and called on the phone) when I once sent a letter to the ed referring to the "job" ships (not log) that were sending our jobs overseas. Oh boy, I got the last laugh :-(

Fishing industry? A guy might as well chase butterflies.

http://www.coosbay.org/

Local daily newspaper (I only buy the weekend edition).

http://www.theworldlink.com/

Seems like the world has run out of sensible people does it not?

Coos bay....home of the coos cut! I grew up in tillamook county, then shifted to scio in the willamette valley....daddy was a dairy farmer.

Same thing happened in those places....the timber industry harvested far more than they could process and ended up shipping thousand of acres of raw logs out of the country....now its miles and miles of stumps, closed down lumber mills, decrepit towns...you know the rest.

Legendary...that it does. Sensible people have been supplanted by people who all feel a sense of entitlement. They all want to keep government off their backs so they can take as much as they can carry away...

This thread initially caught my eye because I spotted it right after opening an escrow statement, found out local taxes alone are going up $100 + a month starting '05. Crap. They just went up about six months ago. Federal was higher last year also. I don't get it, I feel like I'm getting nailed in every direction. I really don't mind paying a bit more for good roads, fire, police, etc. But man, this is too much. Anyway, that's why I popped in to vent. Cool thread.

@ Banshee
You are absolutely right. Rep or Dem we are ALL going to be paying taxes again; more taxes. It pretty much comes down to how you want your money spent. To help Halliburton or help you buy hamburger.