Basicly I dont know y britian went to war well blairs not gonan be reelected now *the spaz*
and y didnt we just nuke em itd be over then just araciq casualties

^ cause then the other countries will be pretty pissed off at us.

I'm REALLY glad you are not pres.

Nah lg caue you see the middle east is a extremeist place 1 of my many mottos kill them befor ethey kil you!

Yea, I feel that way too, but when im old enough im goin to tha army, so ya know, I might be protectin you guys one day

Iraq had very little terrorists ties.

Afghan had many.

Iraq had no nukes.

Iraq had no WMD's.

Iraq had no biological weapons.

Saddam was a bad man corrupted by power.

Saddam Hussein was placed / helped into power by the US.

Saddam received the majority of his US made weapons used in the Iran-Iraq war from CIA operatives.

Many of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi Arabian or Jordanian.

Jordan and Saudi Arabia are not democracies. They are Monarchies.

Monarchies that were established under western intervention.

Many Iraqi's want freedom and support the US.

Many Iraqi's hate the US and view them as invaders to be resisted. This earns them the label of "terrorists" as opposed to resistance fighters.

1,674 coalition troops have died. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

11,069 coalition troops have been seriously inured. Some blinded, some with missing limbs, many many have life altering wounds.

An untold number of these troops, estimated at 30+ percent who experience combat will have post dramatic stress disorder, or bouts of sever depression, alcohlism, insomnia, or suicidal thoughts.

The motis operandi for the US in the Middle East is to keep the region in turmoil so that the US can get oil cheaply.

It's estimated that approximately 17,000 Iraqi's have died in the war. Some were weapons carrying supporters of Saddam Husseim, some innocent civillians.

Iraqi elections.... When do we invade Saudi Arabia or Jordan to establish elections there? You know, where all the Saudi pilots are from? Where Osama Bin Laden is from? Oh, Saudi Arabia sells us oil, it's also much easier to control a Prince or Rotal family than a democracy composed of many.

Iraq doesn't make me sick.. It's another country that does that.

Sniper

I'd comment, but a few of the posts between the first and last gave me diarrhea.

I don't see Sniper blaming the troops. But everything he says is spot on.

The US govt wants you to believe that they hate us because we're democratic and free.

It's like the pretty girl in school who says "Everyone hates me because I'm pretty!"

Uhm, nope, that's not why. Everyone hates you because you're a jerk!

Maybe a similar story in our case, huh?

Too bad thoes statistics don't contain any sympathy.
I cannot believe you people have the nerve to use the lives of men, as a reference to how stupid the Bush Administration is. Thats disgusting.
Boarderline treason.
Dark ages.

Last edited: Thursday, March 03, 2005 at 3:19:08 PM

Hossil,

Statistics generally do not contain sympathy, but my use of the terms "life altering wounds" and the reference to the mental stresses of PTSD, I was trying to infer that the cost of the war is measured in more than KIA's. Something not touched on nightly in the news.

I never mentioned the Bush Administration.

Sniper

@Sniper,

I am afraid your "facts" are very wrong.. Sadam DID support terrorism.. Was it not him paying 10,000 US to the family of every suicide bomber in the west bank.. Yes it was a know fact and money has been traced.. Since I consider this an act of terrorism, in fact Iraq WAS supporting terrorism.. Maybe not the kind the US was reporting... Second Iraq DID have WMD.. I believe Chemical weapons are WMD.. He not only had them he used them.. 1 in the IRAN-IRAQ war and 2 on his own people the KURDS.. I think this is more than enough evidence of WMD.. I agree they have not been found and may never be... BUT the ENTIRE world community felt he had them and he did possess them at one time.. I agree he was put in power by the US.. BUT That was a different time. A completely different battle.. One between the USSR and US.. To blame it all on the US is wrong.. It was a biproduct of the cold war.. Which although many evils where done during. I am certainly glad the west came on top.. So we can feel free to criticize the government and challenge them.. As for this being a war over oil.... I believe this is a cop out.. Too easy.. Do you not think the world would sell us all the oil we want? Are you aware how much oil is held in private reserves in the US for military use only.. Enough to last 10 years if all oil was cut off... I think oil may have been a PART.. But I also believe having a 100,000 man army stationed in the region has had some POSTIVE results.. Syria is finally handing over terrorists or not openly supporting them anymore...... Syria has agreed to pull out of Lebanon.... More peace in the Isreal - Palestein area.. I am NOT a supporter of the war nor am I American.... But I try and look at things a little deeper..

@OM,

Its funny.. Everyone hates the US but where do they all want to move to.... They hate the US because we ALWAYS hate the top dog.. Can the Americans be idiots... Yes and partly this has to do with the democratic process in that country.. Every 4 years a new government with new rules.. That has caused alot of policy shifts that screw things up.... It is all funny that as much as everyone hates the US who do they call on when everything goes to pot..

@ doc - Actually sniper's "facts" are not very wrong at all.
His facts are quite correct from what what we know.
Your "facts" are also correct from what what we know. But some of your arguments are a little weak. You argue "facts' with opinions.
The 3 points you argue.
1. Terrorism
2. WMD/CW
3. Oil

Terrorism
Sniper said "Iraq had very little terrorists ties". He didn't say they had none. The point he is making is that Iraq is not responsible for 9/11.
The War on terrorism, that is protecting all of us here at home, as Cat put it, doesn't make sense. Why Iraq? That's what we are questioning. Fine, War on terrorism, great, 9/11 was totally messed up.
The War in Iraq wasn't about terrorism. It was about WMD that we thought the government had and we were afraid they might use it on neighboring countries for more control of OPEC or possibly the US.
The War in Iraq is about warfare not terrorism.
Unfortunately they lied about finding any WMD. We went to war with another Country based on a lie, a war I agreed to, I have to live with that.
It was right about the time when no WMD were found that the War in Iraq started becoming The War on Terrorism.
And now it's called Operation Enduring Freedom or Iraqi Freedom because most of the educated population of this country didn't buy The War on Terrorism ploy.

WMD/CW
Iraq did posses WMD in the form Nuclear, Biological and Chemicals Weapons.
(Weapons of Mass Destruction defined as: Nuclear, Biological and Chemicals Weapons.)
Iraq had nukes in the 70's and they were forced to dismantle them.
Iraq has possessed and produced chemical weapons ever since the Iraq vs Iran war in the 80's, and then later what they did to the hundreds of PUK (Kurds).
But one must wonder... Who helped Iraq win that war? Some "facts" suggest that we gave them the CWs. Then realized it was a mistake when they used it on the PUK
We totally knew Iraq had C&BWs and we bombed the hell out of their facilities later in Gulf War I. (Gulf War Syndrome)
Apparently we continued to bomb possible facilities all through the 90's under The Clinton Administration.
But before and after going to war with Iraq we were unable to find any, at all.
As far as the world community is concered. They told the world that they found WMD in Iraq. No wonder "the ENTIRE world community felt he had them", as you say. I believed that Iraq had them too. I was pro war, until later when I found out they lied. They f'ing lied.

Oil
Do you actually make an argument against against this statement:
"The motis operandi for the US in the Middle East is to keep the region in turmoil so that the US can get oil cheaply"
Not sure if I agree to that one myself. I don't think we keep it in turmoil on purpose, that's just the result of our meddling in their affairs.
Obviously the reason we are at war with Iraq is more than just oil. But oil is why we are so interested in the Middle East.
You are aware that Gulf War I/Persian Gulf War was in fact, all about oil right?
And that war was about Iraq, under the leadership Saddam Hussein, invading Kuwait right?
So it's as much about oil as it is about a "safer" America.

That's my understanding of things. I need more information to understand what exactly is really going on. We all do!

I dig and I dig and it makes me sicker and sicker.

Some references:
Persian Gulf War
Persian Gulf War
IRAQ - Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, and Missile Capabilities and Programs[1]
chemical weapons history
Chemical Weapons Programs: History
Arming Iraq: A HISTORY OF BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS 
Iraqi WMDs
Arming Iraq: A Chronology of U.S. Involvement

MAX

Last edited: Friday, March 04, 2005 at 12:34:35 AM

@MAX,

You make a good point.. When I read the statement again, you are correct it was very little ties.. I must have mis read that.... As for the WMD it seems you agree with me.. They had them....and we know they had them because you gave them to them....lol.. What a mess we weave.. I also am sick of the war even though in our country it affects us little.. However, the constant whining about it really needs to stop.. Its over.. IT happened.. Nothing can be done about it now.. Pulling out would be a complete disaster and cause even more damage.. For better or worse a solution needs to be found.. My arguments are based on fact not opinion.. I stated the facts as we knew them before the war.. What we learn after is kind of a mute point... It was not just the US that thought Iraq posed a problem for the world.. It was just the US who did something about it...

Maybe a solution to all this is a UN with its OWN armed forces.. Completely independant of all member countries.. Who will actually DO something for a change and not talk a problem to sleep.. They never go away.. Or better still maybe we all after to view each other not as countries but as a planet.. Look at ourselves as all members of planet earth.. Maybe then some of these things will stop.. We will all have a common goal..

Yes we did support Iraq in the Iran war. At the time Iraq was viewed as the lesser of two evils. That doesn't make supplying them with biological weapons smart.

We sure did go to war for oil in the Gulf War. We need their oil like babies need a bottle. Our economy would crumble without affordable oil. Don't give me that fuel cell crap or alternative energy mumbo jumbo. The cheapest fuel cell car would be more expensive than an '05 Corvette. It's just not feasible at this time. So yes, we went to war for oil.

I don't support the reasons for going to war with Iraq this time but I must digress back to something WInston Churchill said.

He also stated that had the world reacted sooner or at all their would have been no war.

Once again, I don't really support this war. I can however see some correlation between current mid-East and Northern African Arab politics and Nazi Germany. I don't need to point them out you all know what I'm talking about. Simply put, if you're not one of them you're an infidel.

If you want to try and persuade me that we're attacking another country because they treat certain people as second class citizens and perform acts of genocide, do it. I'll listen. Don't blow smoke up my ass and make what were in all actuality flimsy points of evidence that Iraq had WMDs your selling point to have our young people killed in another country.

If you don't know I'm as liberal as they come. That said, it doesn't make me ignorant to the fact that many governments around the world need to be disposed of. See Churchill quote above.

And yes, I am cogent to the many blunders our government has made and is still making.

Yes, true. I guess my issue with our actions is our inconsistency in responding to acts of genocide and terror. It seems to be rather selective. There are many examples of the U.S. Turning a deaf ear to countries needing assistance to stop atrocities committed by militant groups or govt entities.

Take the Rwandan ethnic cleansing in 1994. US policy makers chose to be "bystanders" in that case. Was that not a worthy cause to send troops there to help out? Seems to me it was. Ahh, but here's the catch; Rwanda has nothing of importance to us, unlike Iraq (oil)

Some hypocrisy there on our part?

Edit: this wasn't directed at anyone in particular, especially not you Columbo! :) It's just an observation and opinion.

Last edited: Friday, March 04, 2005 at 9:18:42 AM

It's just too bad that humans run the governments. Enlightened Self Interest governs everything. It sure would be nice if people didn't act like people, but that's never going to happen. That's why I'll never subscribe to any idealist movements, they all require people to stop acting like people. It's possible for small groups for a limited time, but never for large groups. Doesn't matter what race, nationality, creed or religion.

On the other hand though, no person (or government) should be held to the rule that if you help one person (or country) then you have to help EVERY person (or country) that needs help. Did you donate to a charity or worthy cause last month? Yes? But did you donate to EVERY charity? :P Why did you pick the one(s) you did, and not the others? Aren't they worthy of your help and support too? The only solution is to never help anybody, which is a sucky answer. XD

Look. I dont see why you democrats think that the number of lives lost was a big deal. I think it is sad that they lost their lives in the first place, but get over it. People die in war. You have to get that in your head!

Heck, im surprised that you're not complaining about the deaths on U.S. Highways each year. 10s of thousands. And here you are complaining about some 1,600 lives lost.

How about: We didn't really thing about the things that we thought when we thought the things we thought we think we thought!

About the subject: Yes I know it's bad that all our soldiers are dying there, but really. It's not just cause we want terrorists out of the world, it's because we are freeing Iraq and getting rid of Islamic rule. Did you know that if we never attacked, we would have the threat of facing three nuclear bombs being built in Iran. They will be pointed at New York City, London, and Los Angeles. Once they get hold of these weapons they will certainly use them. That is why Bush is planning to attack Iran soon. But, Israel has nukes too. I think it was 1994 when they blew up the nuclear facility factory in Iran then. Now they still have that opportunity, but we don't know if they will do it again. If they do, we will have the threat of the bombings completely erased from the terrorist level of destruction. Also, Saddam Hussein is in prison as you know. He was a HUGE threat to America. Now since he's imprisoned, the threat of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction are postponed till another time, and his rein on terror in Iraq is over. The people can now liev freely without fear in their homes. In a certain year in the 90s (I'm not really good with dates) Saddam blew up all the oil towers in a certain region. He was planning to do the same madness AGAIN. If he had done so, all comerce in America and other oil neighbors of Iraq would fail comepletely, and each one of those nations (including ours) would collapse. Imagine having to buy gasoline for $8.00 a gallon. Imagine having to never use a plane to get from one country to another. Imagine if you couldn't trade, or sell, or buy anything from any other country. And yes, THERE WERE weapons of mass destruction there. The UN, the French, the English, and the American government ALL had the conclusion that there were indeed weapons of mass destrution in Iraq. They were moved right before the invasion, and there was no wonder that there weren't any in Iraq. They aren't stupid people you know! They did move them, and now we think they might be in Syria. There is a big chance they were moved there because of the terrorists they support there. They weren't moved to Iran probably because of the huge amount of religious fanatics there. Not that there aren't that many in Syria, but Syria was the only best option they could choose at the moment since Iran already has nukes there. Did you also know that many other armies are supporting Iraq? Iran has gotten into the war now. Iraqees are found with Russian weapons. Don't you see that they can't let America control Iraq because then the Islamic rule would comepletely collapse. Iraq is a vital source for weapons, armies, and used to have the WMDs which they need desperately to have some threat against America not to attack certain nations for a period of time. If we establish Democracy in Iraq we kill the whole plan of them ever getting a chance to rule the world. That's what they want. And they want to kill and destroy the Jews as well. The whole reason for terrorists to even exist is to establish Islamic rule everywhere on the earth. Even Yasser Arafat wanted to establish Islam in America. Read his quote for yourself. If we win this war on terror against Iraq, we eliminate all threats of Islam from the world. I know it sounds kinda out there, but when you really think about it, it actually makes sense. Of course though, I'm a Christian republican, so that's why you see this young 14-year-old kid going on all the political threads here, trying to do the best he can to prove wrong the Democrats, I prove right the Bush Administration and the other republican desicions. :)

~Gaul-Ex/p

Last edited: Saturday, March 05, 2005 at 9:47:30 PM

WOOOT! Go Gaut Go!!!

STUPID DEMOCRAPS (NOT A TYPO) BEWARE! I WILL CREAM YOU WITH POLITICIAL WARFARE!!!

Wow, such eloquent thoughts. I'm almost swayed to go Right. You would have had me if you ended with this:

The real question on my mind today is this..

Did the First Persian Gulf War,. Jan.- Feb., 1991, ever actually end.
It started with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait on Aug. 2, 1990 and from what I have been reading the US never really pulled out.
Maritime Interception Operations (MIO) 1990 (1991 - May 1 2003)

In 1989 the Communist regimes of Europe collapsed. Namely Russia who was Iraq's main supporters since the late 60's
The Iraq Iran war had indebted Iraq, and Kuwait, with 20% of the worlds oil, was selling oil so low that Iraq was unable to recover.
So Iraq annexed Kuwait. There goes the cheap oil. The world responds with war.

For twelve years, 1991-2003, the US and UK insisted, through the UN, on maintaining strict economic sanctions on Iraq. To the ensuing havoc, the US and UK added nearly daily over-flights and aerial bombing.

US Military Operations in Southwest Asia
Operation Desert Shield 1990
Operation Imminent Thunder 1990
Joint Task Force Proven Force 1990
Operation Desert Storm 1991 (Jan 17 1991- 28 Feb 1991)
Operation Desert Sting 1991
Operation Desert Sabre 1991
Operation Positive Force Task Force Victory 1992
Operation Desert Calm (Mar 1 1991 - Jan 1 1992)
Desert Farewell 1992 (Jan 1 1992 - ?
Supposed end of Gulf War I
U.S. Plans to Double Warplane Presence in Persian Gulf (October 28, 1994.)
Operation Southern Watch 1993 (Jan 13 1993 - Jan 13 1993
Operation Desert Strike 1996
Operation Provide Comfort II 1996
Operation Desert Thunder 1&2 / Desert Viper 1997-1998
Operation Desert Fox 1998 -1999
Operation Phoenix Scorpion I, II, III and IV 1997-1998
Operation Southern Focus 2002
Operation Northern Watch 1997-2003
Maritime Interception Operations (MIO) 1990 (1991 - May 1 2003)
Supposed Begin of Gulf War II
Operation Iraqi Freedom 2003 (Mar 19 2003 - May 1 2003)
Iraq Occupation and Reconstruction 2003 (May 1 2003 - present)
The Second Persian Gulf War,. Also known as the Iraq War, Mar.–Apr., 2003,

The Clinton administration (1993-2001) has adopted an ambitious policy in the Persian Gulf: "dual containment" of Iran and Iraq.
Policy of Dual Containment in the Persian Gulf
President Clinton's Iran Option

I hope this thread can become a sharing of knowledge so we can all better understand the situation.
Rather than to try and sell out opinions based on highly fragmented information filtered through the highly corrupt media.

MAX

Last edited: Sunday, March 06, 2005 at 2:19:58 PM

BRYCE SAID...

"Look. I dont see why you democrats think that the number of lives lost was a big deal. I think it is sad that they lost their lives in the first place, but get over it. People die in war. You have to get that in your head!"

War is not the answer....

And for the record, I am not a Democrat. I'm not a Republican. I am not a member of any political party. I actually chose to excercise my brain and think about things as needed... Issue by issue.

Sniper

Last edited: Sunday, March 06, 2005 at 5:18:05 PM

Don't take what those 14 year olds say to seriously. It is beyond their cognitive developmental stage to understand, much less debate, the value of life or America's role in setting the current mid-east condition.

Just enjoy their blind oblivion to the fact that since W is borrowing to finance the current war coupled with his attack on future retiree benefits it is THEY that will pay.

Very funny in a Doctor Strangelove way.

@MAX,

Isn't that the same corrupt media pieces you keep putting in your posts to back up your points.. Lol..Just a thought to ponder..

I usually do not support war, but it was necessary in this conflict. Let's say I invited Osama to my house to tell him not to blow up buildings with planes:

Bryce: Hello.
Osama: Hello. May I come in?
Bryce: Sure. Let me help you carry that RPG launcher.
Osama: Thanks.
Bryce: Please stop blowing people up.
Osama: No.
Bryce: Why not?
Osama: Because Zarqauwi said so.
Bryce: Won't you tell Zarqauwi to be a good little boy?
Osama: No.
Bryce: Why?
Osama: Cause I'm gonna kill you now.

That was more sarcasm, BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE HE KILLED OVER 2000 PEOPLE ON 9/11!!!!! WE HAVE TO STOP THE TERRORISTS AND IF THEY WONT COOPERATE WE HAVE TO USE FORCE! MY STUPID CAPS LOCK KEY IS STUCK.

Bryce,

When did we start talking about the war on terrorism? The subject is the war in Iraq.

The war in Afghanistan ( AKA the "War Against Terrorª" - Copyright 2003 Fox News) is the war were we are STILL looking for OBL.

As far as the news go in Afghanistan, I'm not sure if we have fired a shot in Afghanistan in the last several months.

One thing we can agree on, I think your caps lock key is stuck also.

Sniper

Yep. Doc is right.
Ignore all my post here because all my references are corrupt since we know all media is corrupt in one way or another.
So we are all clueless and have no idea what is truth is. Bummer!
So lets just drop this whole thing because none of us really has any idea what is really going on.
Good call dude.

My Bad
MAX

Before we went to iraq, we gave Saddam 48 hours (2 days for you democrats so stupid to know) to leave iraq. Did he? NO! And for 9/11, we didn't declare war on Al Qeada; they declare war on use by blowing up buildings!

@MAX,

Lol.. I was just poking some fun... I do agree with SOME of what you are saying.. I think the media is definately biased.. I am just not sure which way.. I think they tend to report what they want with a spin the way they want it.. It means we all have to use some common sense when reading media reports.... So as is often said.. "no the numbers lie?"... Lol