Tennis Critters has a console command that allows you to list PlayerNames with the Client ID. From there, you can execute assorted functions (namely kick();). However, the Tennis Critters command, listClients(), doesn't work in ThinkTanks. I ended up having to look at the log and figure out which ID goes to which name based on who entered my server last.

A brief rant here: why is there so much secrecy over the console commands in ThinkTanks? This question for ThinkTanks console commands has been asked repeatedly asked at GarageGames, only to get cryptic answers or references to manuals that don't contain a single console function. I found kick() only because of Tennis Critters. It was strange:

Tennis Critter User: "How can I kick a user off my server in Tennis Critter?".

Response: "List clients with the listClients() command. Then kick using the corresponding ID number with kick(#)."

(or)

ThinkTanks User: "How can I kick a user off my server in Think Tanks?"

Response: "Well, you can't. Actually, you can and some do, but we won't tell you how. I mean, you shouldn't. Or...gosh, look at the time."

It can't be that hard! All I need to do is get a list of client IDs to Player names and I'll be able to host a dedicated server without ripping my hair out. Passwords are far to restrictive, as there are a lot more good players that would get locked out, rather than have me boot the occasional bad egg.

All I want is a link or a brief explanation. I know that -z- is busily adding about 200 Admin features to his servers until the Admin features are "complete", but even SlugThog has a basic boot command. I just want a console kludge that will get the job done through the terminal, or maybe a couple lines to add to main.cs or something. My personal dedicated server is like my house; I should be able to show a trouble-maker the door.

- Bomb...James Bomb

Yeah this whole running a dedicated server thing that im just now tinkering with is starting to get to me?? Why is everything a big secret. I have a cable connection and a cutting edge pc. Wont work right because nobody is willing to share information. 56k and mac are the only ones who told me anything. I guess I will stop ranting and wait for bravetree to release admin tools.

If I had a specification file for some of the classes, I would be able to write my OWN admin tools. I am an experienced developer. With no documentation and user feedback it is all guesswork.

Is their really an easy way to kick??

Kicking by client id makes sense. Where does the client id come from?? Is it an incremental number kept by the master server?? Is it a hash from the user's IP?? Is it a day/time hash?? Is it a username hash?? Never seen such limited documentation...

Kicking by ip doesnt make sense... A dialup users ip changes every time they reconnect

Here is my short term solution for kicking until somebody answers with admin tools or an explanation:

1. Go to the cmd window and figure out the offenders ip based on when he/she joined (this isnt always easy)

2. Use a firewall or some dos tool to deny that ip access to your computer. (I use sybase to block them)

3. They will then be gone (if they are a dialup user, all they have to do is redial and get back in )

Actually people tennis critters is very different then thinktanks. It has many additions such as new console commands and edited console commands such as "kick(clientnum);) which doesnt work in TT sence it wasnt coded into it. And also the client num changes every time you enter a game (enter once its 1122 leave enter again its 2451) things like that. I would like to tell you but im not sure I want to due to the horrable consequinces that might occour if it gets into the wrong hands = I will be willing to tell you to due to the fact that I know you are respectable players e-mail me at mouseonmars0@yahoo.ca so that I can tell you confidentially and I am SURE that you will NOT tell ANYONE about this if I tell you. You're welcome

~Mouse~

@Mouse:

Before I email you and become party to this group of people who are holding this secret, answer me this:

What harm is there in letting a server admin control his own server?

Seriously, I do not have console access to anybody else's server but my own! So, how could knowing the kick command give me any power except over my own server? If I'm going to host my own dedicated server using my computer power and my bandwidth, I think it is perfectly reasonable that I should have a couple tools at hand in order to remove people who wish to abuse what I'm offering. It is frustrating to host a good game to the ThinkTanks community, only to have it trashed by a bad-mouthed team-killer.

I really am tempted to email you and get the instructions, but I'm not sure if I want to partake in a secret that makes no sense to me. It would only anger me more to have to keep a secret that I think shouldn't be kept.

I understand why -z- keeps most of his stuff to himself, as his tools actually modify the game itself. The developers need to keep tabs on such things. I am just asking for instructions to an admin tool, not to change the game itself.

Is Joe reading this thread? What do the developers have to say?

- Bomb...James Bomb

@Bolo

Here is what I know so far. If you have the console window open after starting a dedicated server, you can monitor the Client IDs and IP address as they "add" themselves to the game. You will see the word "CADD," for Client ADD, followed by the 4-digit Client ID number, then the IP address. If you play ThinkTanks in a window and keep the console at the side, you can make a mental note of which ID goes to who as people's names appear in your game. To kick a person out, just type:

Kick(1234);

Replace 1234 with whatever the Client ID is. While this will dump the person from the game, that player will be able to rejoin your server. The ban list is not supported yet in ThinkTanks. However, since the console does give you their IP address, you could add them to your firewall as a temporary solution.

When a person leaves, you will see the word CDROP followed by the Client ID.

The problem is that tracking who goes to what Client ID is a bit of a chore during a game. I would be happy if there was at least a function where you could type PlayerName(1234); and it would return the name. At least then you could verify that you are about to kick the right person. Right now, I'm too nervous to use kick in fear that I might boot a friend!

Tribes has admin tools. Tennis Critters has admin tools. For some reason, Think Tanks has been treated differently. A pity. This whole discussion will be null once -z- finishes the admin tools, but that guy has more than enough on his plate that I don't really want to start a forum-wide heckling for him to finish it. I hope to just find a rock&chisel solution that works in the meantime.

- JamesBomb (ex-macr0t0r)

Yeah thanks mac. I understand. After looking at all TT resource files, I have notice two things. 1. Not all the compiled script files have a source file and 2. There is no list of strings or codes than can be thrown to different objects. (just open a windows.exe in.net and you will see what I mean :) ) This tells me that -z- and some of the other modders have been granted access to files and other resources that are not yet available to the general public. I am sure there is a good reason for this. (maybe some security holes) For now, I am content with the control I have over my own server. I could decompile some things and open some things in a hex editor, etc but I dont want to go thru all that work if a simple solution is on its way out. I also dont want to violate any part of the license agreement. Violating the license agreement may have something to do with the reluctance of people sharing some of these secrets.... I only use my skills to break into stuff from companies I dont really like.... Would never do it to bravetree....

Peace

You should be happy of me. I am writing a little function that will allow you to display/enter player names, or enough to make them unique, into console.

Est. Release time: 2760

:)

Nathan, this will make me a very happy man. Even better, it might even make me shut up in this forum! :P

The release time makes no sense to me, though. Is that a date, or time? Or are you saying you'll release it in the year 2760 (just in time for ThinkTanks version 14!).

Did you have to purchase the Torque developer kit to make this function? I'm a little curious as to how you, -z-, and sluggy got started into making so many incredible modifications and features to ThinkTanks! -z- has done an incredible job in allowing people to build maps and has granted a good starting point on how to modify weapon and tank physics, but it boggles the mind how he can modify game rules and add admin features like he does.

Anyhow, I look forward to this feature! I assume it will provide the client number so that I can kick the occasional bad apple (none have entered this week, thankfully).

- Bomb...James Bomb

Yes. That's a year. Note the smilie face, as I was just joking. It's going smoother then I thought, probably will have it done soon.

When we shipped thinktanks, we did not take the time to implement or test any admin fucntionality. There may be some stuff in left over from the Torque Game Engine, but it may not work, may break things, and since it is not something we designed in, we are not going to give tech support for it. Go ahead and play around and do what you can. Eventually we will get some sort of admin controls in 'officially', but until we haev the time and resources to do it, y'all are pretty much on your own.

Please not that the BraveTree version of the Torque Game Engine is not exactly compatible with other TGE games. Large chunks of code were dumped and much of the game play (including physics and AI) are totally custom to ThinkTanks. You can try doing stuff that worked for Tribes 2 and other TGE games, but don't be surprised if it breaks things or does not work more often than it works.

At this time, we are not going to open up the scripts to the general public, as we just don't have the time to manage it all and keep a lid on any malcontents who are looking to screw things up and make our lives miserable.

We are all for those 'in the know' sharing knowledge and adding things to the game that make it more enjoyable, we just ask that you respect the fact that we don't want any modifications to degrade the experience for the new users (demos) as we need people to buy the game in order for us to devote resources to improving it.

Okay, let me make sure I fully understand the situation here:

(1) None of the console commands are documented, because they are almost all "leftovers" and not acutally an intended feature. So, those commands that I find may have unknown side-effects.

(2) There is a fear amongst the developers that if everyone received extensive modding and admin abilities, there would be many custom servers with "cruel" features, such as the kicking or crippling of Demo users. This would be a sour experience for inexperienced would-be customers. Also, if there was a precedence that almost all people played on servers that blocked or crippled Demo users, there would be insufficient "good times" for a Demo user to ever decide to register.

Fair enough. At least I finally know why getting information was so difficult, and your reasons do make sense. In order to keep tabs on Admin/Rule-Modders, may I suggest that the Admin tools be a purchased add-on package for ThinkTanks that comes with a Non-disclosure agreement? I imagine that developing the tools takes time and money. The small fee coupled with an agreement would allow you to track and limit those that produce modified games and controlled servers. People who break the rules could have their license banned from the listing server so that their games would not show on the online list. At least this way those of us who just wish to host an honest and unique server void of swearing team-killers would have an option.

Heck, I wouldn't mind being a paid beta-tester. If it means anything, I've still kept Z's trick of applying messages to hot-keys to myself, since I know that little trick would cause a rash of chat-flooders if it got out.

In any case, thanks a lot for all your responses everyone. I still want the admin kick tool so that I can get rid of team-killers, though. However, I now understand why I'd have to keep such features to myself if I were granted access.

- Bomb...James Bomb

Last edited: Sunday, February 08, 2004 at 2:29:28 AM

James:

It appears we are out of luck. I just knew there were resources we didnt have access to... Oh well so much for that

By the way, there is no way I buy that whole demos reason. Sounds good, but doesnt add up. Well I guess I can have fun hosting my server of me and 2 others without lag. :[

Also I now harvest ip's. Any assholes on my server and they get the ping of death.

Seems to me that bravetree needs to sell a lot more TT b4 anything is gonna get better.

Still TT has done pretty good for a canned product game

If everybody played TT I wouldnt ever play it. I like the fact that I know most of the people who play often. I hate when servers are full and when too many jerks get in. Dont ever wanna see TT turn into halo

Just my thoughts

Bolo

I think I could look into that and try to script it in........ I think you can do it in Torque so how hard could it be to re-write the file that determines that......

~Mouse~

The real Problem is that the console doesnt write or recognise special letters (© and ™ and things like that) making it impossible for you to have it asigned to the playernames unless it could be done in-game I have found a few files that I could make admin files out of. So if I get it done I would probably release it to those I know are Trustworthy XD

~Mouse~

@ James

1) Yes, the stuff you find may be broken..

2) It is not so much a fear as it is that we have worked on titles like this before, and overzealous adminning is as big of a problem as the team killers/jerks. I know people may disagree, but we did not have the resources to implement these features the way we thought they should be done for the initial release.

I think kicking is REALLY cruel (well I know how you guys feel about it and agree sometimes) because I played this game called starcrat and it did have a baning thing. What happend is you join a game and if people didn't like you they could just ban/kick you for no reason.

My own pet peeve is seeing really good and committed players getting vote kicked for 'cheating' because people did not believe it was possible to be that good. I have seen it happen, and I have seen many really good players stop cold turkey when this has happened to them. I personally would rather have the strong and committed players not leave because they are getting vote kicked by the n00bs, This is a personal perspective, and it is part of the reason why vote kick was not a high priority for us. Again, I don't expect everyone to agree, but there is a method to our madness.

Strong points all around. I understand that nobody should have admin rights on the Shockwave and Homelan servers, but I still think I should maintain some control over anything I host. While I understand that it would be infuriating for an expert player to join someone else's server, only to get kicked for being too good. However, I could also see a newbie player wishing to host an "Amatuer Sanctuary" for new players to have an equal match, where he may then ask the veterans to leave and find another game (he should definately ask before kicking, though). Sluggy always provided a "3 strikes" warning to problematic players, in which they often left on their own.

I guess it boils down that the more features you provide for the good people, the more weapons you are giving to the jerks. 2-edged sword. I've been digging with a de-compiler and hex-editor and have finally found some features in the console. Some of the stuff I found is actually worse than kick, in that you could actually modify a player's attributes, just to mess with him (score, tank-type, etc).

However, I've always been against "Vote-Kick." Seriously, 2 small teams or a group of friends could take-over a Shockwave sever for their personal use, and just vote-kick anyone who joins. I doubt a Demo player would ever be able to play a game again.

Well, I'm still going to finish up my kick function anyway. I'll follow Sluggy's rule of "3 strikes."

- Bomb..James Bomb

In the future (no promises) we want to be able to have a system where people can come here, launch a dedicated server ( a fast one) password protect it, and then tell people thay want 'in' that the game is up via IM or IRC (note that there is a #thinktanks channel on MaxGaming). We will eventually also have admin privledges on dedicated servers. Our original intention was to make an admin GUI for administering servers to make it easy for people to make games, but this was one of our wish features that got cut.

Please try to understand that most of the ThinkTanks players are not super sophisticated computer users. We have had too many support requests from people who could not figure out how to launch a dedicated server on the PC (they could not locate the shortcuts that we install with TT), let alone run it from the command line. Game development is a balance of production and support. Some features we cut because although WE wanted them, the after ship cost of supporting them without making them usable (i.e. Making GUIs for admin control) made it impossible for us to include them.

Please try to understand that we are trying to run a business, and it is a careful balancing act. We want to stay around so we are able to continue to support and expand this game, and in order to do that, we sometimes have to make hard decisions. Keep the comments coming, and don't pull punches. I would even appreciate some decsrition of what one would want in 'an ideal world'. I pucture a little dedicated server laucnhing app.. With little checkboxes, tabs for multiple servers, a list of who is on the server, a little 'kick' and 'warn' button..etc... Again, no promises.. We want to add this stuff, and eventually, some of this will make it into either this version of ThinkTanks or a future version.

Also, we are using the communtiy comments to add features into our next title. Hopefully, when it is done, some the ThinkTanks community will try it out and see if we addressed the issues adequately.

I've assisted with some PalmOS projects, and found out the hard way that the job is far from done once it was released. I spent more time on bug-fixes and support requests than I did on developing the dang thing!

However, that's another reason why I suggest you make the admin tools a paid add-on. It can offset the costs of the additional tech-support and development. Most software charges a little more for "server" editions of software, so it is not unreasonable to do the same for a game. This keeps costs down for those that just want to play, but the computer-elite will still have something available to them when they want to host something different! Add an NDA and separate license key if you like (or only answer tech-support to those that buy it).

In any case, between -z-, Nathan, and 187, I got what I needed. Thanks guys!

- Bomb...James Bomb

Thanks pokemalo for resonding to our questions. Things are a little more clear now.

Later

If you want to get the name, you can simply do a dump on the client number. That will show the name near the top of the list.

Yep, I saw that in the executable. Truthfully, that's the most dangerous command, because it opens up a world of stuff to mess with. Experimented a little and found I could do all kinds of screwy things to a player if I was mean enough. I can see why you guys might want to restrict things a little before release.

- Bomb...James Bomb

Yeah I saw some other stuff in there too. Dont know what works well or not. Some things I dont even want to test.

@ Pokemalo...and all

I would gladly pay an additional fee for added game features.

I actually bought the game twice to offer support. Once from Shockwave and then again from Garage Games, just to get the Launch Dedicated Server feature but also to put some money in the offering plate. I did it gladly. It cost me only about two fewer trips to McDonalds. Figure BT keeps about $15 of every $20 game they sell.

What irks me is seeing mtco.com renting out servers and trying to gain bucks on the game while z and BraveTree run a moderated forum for donations. Moderating forums is a pain in the rear. I have seen an email loop operate firsthand.

Last edited: Thursday, February 12, 2004 at 8:15:55 PM