Forums Index >> General >> Iraq war: over 90,000 Americans lives lost!
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90,000 lives, and one constitution. Disgustingness.
The Day Habeas Corpus Died
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/17/olbermann-the-day-habeas-corpus-died/
welcome to despotism, please come with me.
^^More Cheney bashing?
I think we're bug nuts.
Sure, we needed to review our security measures, but I bet if we had just implemented what we already had in place 9/11 wouldn't have happened. People had suspicions that they didn't act on or those in charge dismissed. I think we're going way to far and losing with a stroke of a pen what so many have bled and died for to secure for us. And the thing is, the recommendations that have been made that would make a difference haven't been implemented.
I think we're all just moving closer to dictatorships and that bleak totalitarian future so often refered to in sci-fi is coming to pass.
Aaannndddd... FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Last edited: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 at 6:23:28 AM
But that's it; no one knows what the Habeas Corpus is, so they don't care.
How ironic it should happen in the US of all places...
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 70S?
The Congress just gave the President despotic powers and you could hear the yawn across the country as people turned to Dancing With the Stars
This is so Roman, ca. 350 ad,I think I'll go dance in the street.
BREAD AND CIRCUS IS WHAT THE PEOPLE NEED! XD
^^ And Rabban be quiet, the FBI is right for as you know:
"Terrorists coordinate their plans cloaked in the anonymity of the Internet, as do violent sexual predators prowling chat rooms,"
Everyone is a criminal. This is like, bizarro-america. We're becoming the u.s.s.r. We feared. Bush can breath on you and it's gulag city.
fantastic.
http://opinenetwork.typepad.com/opine_blog/2006/10/bush_signs_tort.html
The provisions of Bush's new torture law mean that Americans have lost the key, constitutional right on which Anglo-American criminal law (and criminal-law procedures in true democracies in general) is founded; that's the basic right of an individual to know why he or she is being apprehended and detained. Now, technically, as in Stalin's Soviet Union, Hitler's Germany, Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia, anyone labeled an "enemy combatant" - again, by whom; by Bush? - can be whisked away and never heard from again. That kind of authority, in the hands of corrupt or untruthful politicians, may or may not be an effective tool in some kind of "war on terror," but it certainly can be a useful tool when it comes to silencing their opponents."
Paging, Orwell, Paging.
Is this the day the vision of america died? I think the Signers just rolled over in their graves.
Last edited: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 at 10:14:09 AM
Who gives a crap about Cheney. Zoom out, for god's sake.
OK, I'm freaking out here, man! I mean, COME ON!!!
And I have another level to freak out on...that whole end-of-the-world-antichrist-rise-to-power thing. While that is nothing to many of you, its just making me WIG OUT to think we're in a place now that anyone can be labled as an enemy combatant (or sympathizer) and get whisked away! Oh, maybe not today or in a years, but the potential is there, especially since we don't know what other events or politicians are coming down the pike.
Perhaps its time to organize a PTT rally in DC and protest a little ourselves. Oops! Am I now under FBI suspicion? Man, this sucks!
And I'm powerless to do anything about it.
And one more thing. If anyone knows of a march on Washington that's in the works, please provide a weblink. This definitely needs a million person march to say the least. This probably also sealed my vote for Dems just to get some balance of power back in DC.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/18/bill-clinton-the-common-good/
Clinton speaks. What presidents are meant to sound like.
Is this the day the vision of america died?
Aye, this is the day the Republic fell, and became an Empire. At the same time, it was inevitable: every system spread till it dies.
Georges W. Crossed his Rubicon. And I was there... er... I was playing TT
I hope I won't be there when the White House will have its Caligula. ;)
Now, back to the important things in life...
I think we're all just moving closer to dictatorships and that bleak totalitarian future so often refered to in sci-fi is coming to pass
I think your reading to much into this Rabban. This is still America where military forces are still in control of elected civilians.
Bush would have to have some kind of complete control of both the Senate and House. Then he would try to seek control through legislation to control our "in county" military, the National Guard .
That could never happen. His only recourse might be some kind way to circumvent civilian control . That's totally bug nuts.
And even if he managed all that, the National Guard are us, our brothers, sisters, dads and moms. They would not start rounding up civilians just because he said so. He would need some kind of alternate army of thousands to do that. Where would he find them ?
And even if the most horrific turned out to be reality, where in the world would all those rounded up be put? No American company is going to back some loony into building gulags in the US.
Get a grip man.
(I think I wet myself)
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C'mon Tally, gun violence --> Cheney. Get a blog and invite us over. This is a cartoon video game forum for christs' sake. Tankgirl has left the building.
[EDIT] I'm suggesting that these subjects are important enough to warrant a better and more thorough continuity than being lost after they leave page one. I'm only good for a few one liners.
Last edited: Thursday, October 19, 2006 at 4:54:12 AM
As for the gulags, I heard somewhere on NPR that the official U.S. Policy regarding illegal immigrants is about to change. We will no longer "catch and release" hoping they would return to court. We will now catch and detain because the illegals weren't returning to court. I'd guess that's the reason for the new facilities.
The chipping away of due process started with the RICO laws in the war on drugs. They were intended for taking down kingpins but were soon used to prey on the small fry in order to pad law enforcement budgets. We are indeed drifting toward a police state. But hey, your neighbors said it was ok because they have nothing to hide.
Individual rights, its such a simple concept, isn't it?
@Flea - I wasn't looking for this to happen overnight and not during the Bush Administration. He's only got two years left and I think things are looking pretty bad for his party in November, so hopefully that will slow him down. I said earlier, this is groundwork for later. Could there be conflict between the DOD military and the National Guard? Maybe and we've kinda already done that once during the Civil War (and it has the makings of a good story). But it doesn't have to be the Guard, it could be some new task force dealing with terrorist cells in America or anything.
I guess the biggest problem with this is that we can't say this or that will "never happen" because the unthinkable has already happened and without much of a twitter from the general population. We're in a place in America far from where we used to be and I think we're going to continue on the road to allowing the government to do pretty much whatever they want.
I think we're going to continue on the road to allowing the government to do pretty much whatever they want.
Let's see about this in november.
^re: habeas corpus, yes.
Re: corporate ownership of politicians? Doubt there is any serious issue of addressing that just yet, demo or repub. As far as threats to democracy goes, its up there with gutting habeas corpus in my book...
@ Ho - That's a start. Guess our best bet at this point is to create a lame duck president.
(I say something stronger, but the Feds are watching.)
See, its already starting
Last edited: Thursday, October 19, 2006 at 11:20:34 AM
KBR, the Halliburton subsidiary recently reprimanded for gross overcharging in its military contracts in Iraq, won a $385 million contract to build the centers. According to the Halliburton website www.Halliburton.com "the contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs."
If Halliburton is involved, it means one and only one thing: goodness for the american people.
^ @ Rabban - no one is watching, what are you talking about? :S
Ok, I'm going to state right now that I am a staunch republican, and am fully behind Bush in this war.
Have you guys ever considered what would have happened in Iraq had we had not stepped in? There would be no democratic Iraq government (which, yes, needs work but will soon be in control), Suddam Hussein would still be in power, and the Iraqi people would be helpless.
And if we think about it - we've lost about 2,500 - 3,000 troops. Which, granted, is high. But that is a minute total when you consider wars like Vietnan, and even the battle of Gettysburg - about 50,000 people were killed in three days - the Iraq war has been going on for months now.
We are there to support the Iraqi people. We have to be bold and take the chances. We have to face it, there is never going to be total world peace.
Also, its not like we didn't try peace negotiations - we sent in the UN Inspectors and we attempted every means possible to get Hussein to come to terms, but it was he, not us, that instigated the war.
Ok, the next issue is the election.
Lets face it, neither party at this point has a clear candidate. Although Hilary Clinton will get squashed if she is nominated by the Democrats.
I think Bush has done a great job. We've increased the number of jobs, the economy is going well and the stock market is booming. I know I say this while being in the minority opinion, but I stand by my opinion as stated.
;)
Spirit, what are you, 14 or so? Welcome to the conversation. Do tell us the origins of your political beliefs. Interesting how you're debating dead debate points, but we can set that aside for now.
Last edited: Thursday, October 19, 2006 at 1:47:11 PM
I am 16 - I'm sorry If that is not old enough for you.
I am merely trying to point out that we as Americans have a duty to help those who were under oppression.
What would have happened if we did nothing? I'll tell you. We would have looked cowardly, and would have had to apologize just like Bill Clinton did when he did nothing to stop the Rwanda Genocide a while back.
My origins?
The fact that we as Americans live under rights that many people (including Iraqis) would die to have - including those of free speech, free belief and freedom.
We Americans must support those who seek the same kinds of things, such as those forementioned, that we often take for granted.
We Americans must take the oppurtunity to show that we mean good in the world.
I was just adding my views. Whatever, I'll leave you guys in peace then, seeing as how that's the way you want it.
Last edited: Thursday, October 19, 2006 at 5:33:28 PM
My intent was not exclusion, only provocation. It's not sufficient in here to just toss about opinions, especially when they sound so canned.
As a 16 year old (a 27 year old talkin' here) you shouldn't be staunch
anything
, and I mean that with complete serious. As is evident in many of your statements above, you have many beliefs that can not have been learned from personal experience. I do not want to go further, picking your statements apart. I only want to call your attention to what you know, and what you think you know. If I serve no other purpose in here, let my function be to challenge the beliefs of those, especially those who likely have never left the country, who have committed themselves to iceberg tips with blindness to the darkness below. Staunch, unquestionable, die-hard, radical, believer, extremist. Those are not just words; they are qualities to avoid, not slogans to wave over one's head as if conviction brings the righteousness, especially at 16.
-
as an aside, your hopes may be altruistic, but your history is revisionist. To start at the meta-statement
I am merely trying to point out that we as Americans have a duty to help those who were under oppression.
I want to know where that is written. Also, nobody will be checking any presidential candidate boxes this election; at least not directly. Lastly, I asked about the source of your personal beliefs, not an elaboration of what those beliefs are, what they constitute. You had already labeled yourself in your very first clause.
Last edited: Thursday, October 19, 2006 at 6:18:15 PM
Welcome in the ring Spirit VT; occasional pummeling is included for free =)
One unique mindset in the American subconscious via Hollywood of course , is that feeling of being validated to impose its goodness anywhere on this planet . It's pretty unique that for sure; the very essence of 'imperial' - and it's not a reproach, but an observation.
Dunno if China had goodness in mind when it moved in Tibet, 1956; perhaps it said so. But it's nice that merica always has goodness in mind; aye mightily nice.
I remember seeing Rambo 3, 1988. (I was 17 then, and recently thrown out of the Matrix...) Incidentally the movie happens in Afghanistan... And I sort of came out of the movie thinking 'wow! It's a granted right for this US civilization to strike just about anywhere, anytime on this planet'! (I'd like to see this movie again; I especially remember one famous Rambo scene where he runs in the opens, mowing an entire army of soldiers and vehicles and Mi24!!!)
Countless movies have done just that; Mission Impossible 3, Bourne, etc. If you see 1000 movies where guys from you country go somewhere blow up things, you grow up thinking that's the way things are and should be .
Anyway - I'm always mind-blown at this.
Heh Rambo 3: 'This time (it's) for his friend"
Don't let these guys get to you Spirit, things are looking up in Iraq. With some good timing Sadam can be found guilty of poking W in the eye on November 5, with his execution on the 6th, then we good guys can go vote on the 7th. What a week to look forward to! So sad you can't participate in this one. C'est la vi. Hahahaha...
BTW according to a Johns Hopkins study, it is estimated there are now 650,000 Iraqi dead since we went in to do our goodness.
A damnable tight spot for W and gang. Our own government uses the same technique that Johns Hopkins used to estimate the dead during calamities. If they want to dispute it rationally they will have to disclose the methodology they used. Real scary stuff for your hero because he will have to use (don't be afraid now)... Science. How are your grades?
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You guys are mean. Has it ever occured to some of you to gently guide someone along and help them to see where they might be in error rather than jumping down the guys throat and mocking them? I can assure it would be much more effective because it enables people to listen to your message easier rather than spending their time deflecting the personal attacks and digging in their heels.
^No time, the election draws near,
Have you guys ever considered what would have happened in Iraq had we had not stepped in? There would be no democratic Iraq government (which, yes, needs work but will soon be in control), Suddam Hussein would still be in power, and the Iraqi people would be helpless.
, is/was a popular Republican talking point that has lit an incendiary candle already. A five star poster obviously should know the tried and true method of lurking before posting. And it's never to young to learn there can be a reaction from speaking out or acting out, especially if you are "not supporting the troops," em-bolding the enemy," or just a "liberal."
Plus I'm off my meds for awhile. I have no idea what the others excuses are.
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But rabban does make a good point. It is better that we save the fireworks for the truly entrenched, and for the young, a gentler nudge.
Problem often is, due to the lack of sophistication most GOP posters demonstrate, it is hard to tell the adults from the adolescents...such is the appeal of the message. This young man above to his credit frames the argument the way older conservative/sycophants frame it...to their discredit.
(I say "conservatives" like I know what that means...since when is government worship a trait of conservatives?).
But go easy on the true adolescents. For the arrested adolescents, not so much.
My real problem with his post is, if the proper nouns were culled and we had to guess what he was talking about, his lingo is just as compatible within the parameters of COUNTRY ABC as it is RELIGION XYZ. Why do I get the feeling the kid doesn't keep kosher?
:) lol. Keep kosher? What do you mean by that?
But yes, that is the problem of much of the posts by the "patriotic" typically gop minded.
If by some geographical happenstance they were transported to another circumstance...another point on the planet...POOF! They're singing the praises of country X, leader X, religion C and all that.
Truly frightening, as you say, when one heaps the same praise on their leaders as one does their church or religious leaders. Such a person isn't worthy of democracy in my book. They don't get it, and they don't deserve it. Get thee to a theocracy, go.
Last edited: Friday, October 20, 2006 at 11:44:41 AM
^ Aye come to Canada, lol!
Iraq eh? Why the hell dont we just nuke the god d@mn terrorists already that would be a very ecinomical and easy solution to this horrible out come to 9/11 I say get those B2 bombers out there and nuke those Iraqi son's of b*tche$ I mean com'on ppl really, just nuke em and get over with this war on terrow that will lead to World War three. Just do it already U.S. Air Force get in those b2's and end this war already, now get those fly boys out there and rip those Iraqi's a new a$$ hole plz just end this war... XO. And so..we go on with our daily lives after we nuked those communist b@$tards and we dont care anymore about the middle east and we pick up where we left off the day before 9/11 screw those commie scumbags. And so have a very nice day my friends.
Pesky aircraft...boom!!
Last edited: Friday, October 20, 2006 at 1:57:15 PM
Arg!
Congressman Folley resigns and puts blame on his priest. Priest says we were just good buds who liked being naked together with the occasional rub-down. Typical pedophile mindset. "I'm excited," so the kid must be excited. "I enjoy this," so the kid must enjoy this too.
Awkward segue to:
They're singing the praises of country X, leader X, religion C and all that.
My hero leader excites me, so something must be wrong with you. My religion excites me, it must excite you too or you're a godless sinner headed for damnation.
And all the "logical" reasons used trying to reach out to these folks falls on deaf ears. Because they're stupid? No, because they are so GD NARCISSISTIC!
I'm sick of the "me only" attitude of W and his followers.
That said, wifie and I sometimes go down to the local Saloon where I can tank up on a few Mirror Ponds. We pull up a couple of chairs into our favorite dimly lit spot, we tell each other how much we love the other, and the conversation can be different occasionally .
Grr...
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BTW, anyone who doesn't download that video itune is gay.
{WalMart free for over 24 months!}
Bluster v. Commitment :
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/20/whats-st-mccains-iraq-war-plan-again/
Well, I see now some people are talking about me behind my back - how kind,
@ Rabban: Thanks for ur post. I have open ears to anyone who wishes to correct me. I just thought I'd post my thoughts, seeing as how I havent really had a say in these political threads. Ah well, thanks to people who I don't need to name, I won't be posting here anymore.
@ Tally Ho: What the heck are you talking about?
My real problem with his post is, if the proper nouns were culled and we had to guess what he was talking about, his lingo is just as compatible within the parameters of COUNTRY ABC as it is RELIGION XYZ. Why do I get the feeling the kid doesn't keep kosher?
Lay off please, I did nothing to you - all I did was post my opinions. I'm sorry If they were not up to your standards.
And please, DON'T talk about me behind my back. If you have a problem with something I post, then email me, instead of making me the scapegoat.
In any case, I'll leave you folks to it.
8(
That is my 2nd post since your first. Please scroll up.
if you want to post unchallenged opinions, you too can start a blog. Otherwise, prepare for a conversation
.
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Although I'm usually 180 degrees politically from KKB his "what do you think" approach is an effective republican strategy.
So while we toil about our daily lives here in the US please remember the "terrorist" threat and fear mongering and how it affects you and your voting decisions.
Since the war in Iraq has started in March 03 we have lost over 90,000 lives!
That's right. Right here inside the good ol US of A, where we are locking down our personal liberties, squandering time, money and resources, enacting right to torture laws, and getting ready to commence fencing ourselves in, we have lost over 90,000 lives and wounded over 270,000. With our own gun violence.
I think we've gone totally bug nuts. And I should know bug nuts.
What do you think?
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