Hello everyone and especially Team Scrum lovers %)

To ye all, and especially modders and host servers (did I mentioned Slugmaster?), here are my observations and sluggestions:

- There is too much inane BM in Team Scrum, and most everyone now are really good at BMing. 8( One reason is the just about infinite supply of ammo - whenever one runs out of ammo it's like 'wow I survived that long'!

Here is the plan:

- Reduce ammo capacity in light tank to, say 96 bullets at spawn (12 clips)

- Add some Ammo Power-Ups which will give, say 120 (15 clips) bullets (one could have more than 100 bullets this way - 160 bullets, 20 clips max?)

- The Ammo gate would still replenish ammo - perhaps to 120 bullets? So as it would be an incentive to do a detour - to 'add clips' from Spawn.

I believe these simple changes could positively transform the team Scrum dynamism in the following ways, amongst others:

- Instead of free-for-all, all-time, 24h fire, everyone has to 'shoot to kill' because Every bullets would count!

- Lots more fire-free scrum action (what is better than scoring while being OOA (Out of Ammunition)? XD

- Scrum action around the goal would be different, e.g.. When 5 out of 10 tanks are OOA, driving becomes essential!

- Since OOA will be a more regular occurrence the other Power-Ups like BounceBall and especially RapidFire would have a real use.

- Camping would be much less of a nuisance, for campers would run out of ammo quickly. E.g. A 10 clips campers would dispatch a 3 clips campers, but would seriously deplete its ammo capacity! B)

- Over with the 'Overly Busy Killing Others'! With the guy behind you killing you although you're 100 miles to the goal. X/

- Now the use of bullets will be REALLY important - everyone will want to keep their ammos for use close to the goal! Thus we will kill the enemy CLOSE to the goal, instead of BMing far away in Cleveland!

I believe the game would be streamlined and closer to its original idea.

A tank with 15 clips of ammo would have a tactical advantage over a tank with 3 clips! Right now Ammo shortage is NOT a factor in TT.

Tanks for reading this post, and please post what you guys n' girls are thinking. :P

I agree completely. Not that I play so much anymore, the BModers have pretty much pushed me out of the game..... I am just not interested in that kind of gameplay. If I want that I will go play Unreal Tournament again.

Anyway, I have always thought there should be more strategy to the use of bullets..... I agree with everything you said hugo. Glad to see one of the most respected vets in the community is stepping up to the plate to call BS on BS. (BattleScrum).

Katherine

Hey HB: Yes, I agree 100%!! I suggested the exact same thing in another thread (the are you a great player or a jerk thread):

-Reagent X

Last edited: Saturday, July 03, 2004 at 3:38:32 AM

The damn game is fine...we need more maps and maybe some more tanks....fixing 1 problem creates 5 more.

If you cant shoot then play some other game

B

Or

7 bullets in a clip

&

Slow reload time

A solution to camping: Use the "Heat Shield-Fire near the goal" script in PTT scrum server.

A solution to diving: Make the fog not kill you.

And for BMing: what if you made the turret turn more dramatic? Scrummers would spend most of their time to get the reticle spot on the tank. Not to mention the good BMers would be less likely to kill.

Sorry all, I agree that the game would be better if the weapons strategy was implemented. That is clearly what GG meant when they put a limit on the ammo, but they missed the mark, we need much less ammo and we need to refill more. This would be a great addition to the overall strategy of the game.

I have found that my 'health gate' in place of the 'ammo reload' works well. A) it reduces the aggravation of being constantly left smoking as there is always somewhere (fairly central) that you can re-heal. B) It cuts down diving for fresh tanks, as you can simply drive to the destination via the gate most times. C) Ammo gate is very very very rarely necessary in scrum, but the health gate will also replenish ammo anyway, so no real loss.

I like sluggy's 'return the diver to the point they dove' element, but (even though on his server I can never shoot anyway) I think the no-ammo is the wrong punishment, and that you should just return with half health. It would certainly be interesting to play with approx half the amount of ammo. Same rate of fire etc, but smaller on-board stock.

I played a game of solo scrum not long ago, and found that its not even about tactical shooting anymore, rather a 'always keep the fire button pressed' situation. In the entire game, I managed to hold the scrum for a grand total of about 10 seconds, yet I was killed approx 40 times. Is it that people are just really really poor shots and are hitting me while I am also chasing the scrum carrier? Or is it just more a case of shoot everyone else (with or without the scrum) until I am the only one left alive in the area? Being constantly killed while not even near the scrum is just infuriating and takes any enjoyment out of the game for me, especially as I have no chance of equalling anyone at BM style with my lag. Most of the time I cant even see my own bullets.

-Z-

For those that want to use the health gate when hosting a scrum server, I have added a download to the Files: Other Stuff section (healthgate.zip)

-Z-

@-Z-

How ya' doing, old chap? Just saw your post and I can completely empathize with your firing of blanks. But, simply because a select few of us are laggards, doesn't mean the internal dynamics of the game need to change for all. And, as ROGUE so aptly put, solo scrum is not even a game.

@All

I wholeheartedly concur with Bolo and ROGUE on this one. Although I had my initial beef with the change in the shooting arc from version 1.0 (Hey, who didn't like dancing across the entire map unscathed?), one has to adapt. Interesting that many of the so-called "elite" scrummers were the first to change the dynamics of team play by clogging the goal and never fetching the flag; but now, having never or rarely set foot in a bm server, are the ones now whining about shooting. (And before any of you get all all uppity, I'm not specifically referring to anyone on this page.)

TIPS OF THE DAY: Practice BM for an hour before you enter a scrum server against the best shots in the game. Not only will you meet some new friends, but you will learn a whole lot from them.

Use extensive blocking and the UBER-PASS ( yes, similar to the Hyper-pass, but much quicker and way more accurate - I'll be doing a seminar on it during my match with The Black Sheep, ehehehehe). These two elements alone can easily defeat the excessive bmmer's.

Play only 3 on 3 - way less lag, greater firing rates, and better opportunities for long runs.

Or....realize it was just God's will that you never evolved and go back to playing Sim City.

Jangles

Last edited: Saturday, July 03, 2004 at 2:16:51 PM

Yeah, why? Don't you think that it should be? What's making it 'not a game'? The fact that the current game dynamics are so easily exploited? Perhaps it can be made into a more appealing game..

I am not preventing BM, I have not limited ammo, I am (if anything) sticking up for those that do like shooting when looking at Sluggy's current Out-of-bounds solution that gets rid of all your ammo. I don't believe that tanks should profit or be rewarded by suicide (diving), but I dont feel that taking away their ammo is the best solution for that. Returning to them to the field close to where they dove off with reduced health seems to make far more sense and be fairer.

The game was originally designed as purely battlemode. Scrum was later added in using the same basic rules. I firmly believe that the last year of everyone playtesting it has revealed a few small things that can be improved upon. CTF has evolved quite considerably over the last year, why shouldnt the rest of the game?

I know my limits due to lag etc and I can live with them (so long as I am not needlessly wiped out and battlemoded upon for no tactical reason)

-Z-

BattleScrum is just not as interesting as Scrum... Team or solo..... I am with you Z. The game (both solo and team) scrum would benefit greatly with a strategic update. As you said, the game was not designed to be scrum, it was a battlemode only game. Further refinements are absolutely necessary in order to keep the scrum game fun and balanced.

Indeed, Rogue makes a very valid point. The issue is NOT against all those who can shoot well. They shoot and make their shots count, hitting their intended victim.

It's the others spewing out random fire hitting everyone other than their intended target - particularly the person chasing the scrum bearer and about to bring him down. As a typical example, he/she would be the 6th tank back, in a line, chasing the scrum and just haphazzardly shooting forwards knowing that thats the direction of the scrum. I know I am occasionally at fault here and catch people other than the intended target, but I am very aware of it, and whenever in doubt, I don't shoot. In fact I fire so little during games that I very rarely have to reload.

I do think there should be a mild penalty for diving though.. Whether it be a time delay or a health penalty. Why should diving reward you with a fresh tank? It's a cop out.

-Z-

Maybe, if you dive with the scrum, you respawn with only half health!

As regards the AntiDiving script, initially it broght the player back with reduced health but allowed the ammo to be replenished. The hue and cry was deafening and it made good sense. Health is rare. You have to find a heath PUP and get there first. That's why I chose to deplete ammo instead. Ammo is cheap. Just head to the Ammo Gate. Besides a tank without ammo can still be effective both defensively and offensively whereas a weakened tank is often just cannon fodder.

My underlying principle in all my modifications is to change the game as little as possible in order while endeavoring to resolve obvious cooks, cheats and loopholes.

I have long preached that blocking is superior to killling in most scrum situations. As -z- wrote above he often plays a game without firing a shot. I of course often play several games without hitting anything. 8^)==

In team scrum it is tactically sound to attack opponents supporting the striker. Think chess. Attack the base of the pawn formation and the center is yours. The striker isn't the greatest risk as he rushes to toward the goal. The greatest risk is his teammate racing along behind or his other teammate stationed near the goal ready to pick up the flag when the striker is eliminated and dive in for the score.

It is also tactically sound to weaken powerful opponents. It's called risk assessment and neutralization. It is not tactically sound to kill opponents who are far from the goal or the flag or opponents farther from either than you are. You are just giving them a hand up.

Again for every smart player in the game there are at least two dimwits or noobs. Many of the noobs watch, learn and become smart players. The dimwits will always remain dimwits and must be endured (or booted). (At least until we find a way to identify them before they enter the game [I'm working on it]).

Now, as for the sometimes annoying amount of BM that goes on in TeamScrum (and ChaosScrum) I can see some simple solutions that might work.

First, and most simple, shorten the range of the guns. Similar to what I have done to light tanks in Clown Alley. There will be a lot less random shooting when folx learn that their bullets just ain't gonna get there. No need to reduce ammo capacity. No need to add a new ammo type. [each loadout (damage and magazine capacity) is an ammo type]

Second, let guns overheat. If you fire too many bursts in too short a time your suffer a long reload time while your guns cool.

Thirdly, slower bullets. Though this might increase the amount of collateral damage.

Of the three I favor the first but the physics of the ammunition are modifiable in multitude of ways.

These modifications all will tend to favor runners over shooters, the second the most. But then so will all of the previous suggestions in this thread. 8^)==

For everyone though, when considering changes to the game don't begin from the basis of "How can I change the game to make it easier for me/my team to use (or continue to use) the style of play I/we favor". Instead begin with Hhow can I reduce the effect of this loophole/cook/cheat/trick such that it favors no one nor any particular style of play."

That's all that making a game fair means. Balancing the rules so that different players may employ different tactics and still have an opportunity at success.

...granpa sluggy the eternal pedagogue

.....................................

Last edited: Saturday, July 03, 2004 at 5:38:09 PM

Sounds good as well!

@ Rogue and Co. You missed the point. It's not about 'good shots' or 'bad shots', it's about nowadays everyone in scrum or team scrum are shooting 100% of the time, in every direction. I'm always shooting now in scrum, always killing the nearest enemy. That is the etiquette. To create an Ammo Shortage would add some drama, methink. I don't have anything against shooting - but I think the non-stop shooting galore is just silly.

I don't play FPS like Quake or Doom, but what would be these games if they had infinte ammo situation? "Restrictions are fun" is my experience in gaming XD

@ -Z-

Nice to see you are doing well.

Yes, solo scrum is not a game as it stands now. But, if you remember, it was I who brainstormed with you for days to come up with the anti-camper fog. So, by all means, make it more appealing. I have nothing against that.

Wasn't this thread about shooting in TEAM scrum btw?

@Sluggy

Great work on the anti-diver script. I believe it's a great addition to the game.

@All (especially Hugo)

I find it truly amazing that a select few of you want to mess around with the shooting now. This was never an issue 6 months ago when there were less people in the community and you all felt like scrum gods. When I enter a match, I have more bullets on me than gay midgets in a bath house. What do I do? ADAPT. EVADE. PLAY SMARTER. SHOOT BETTER. All this with 200+ ping.

I think it's truly lame - in TEAM SCRUM - to expect that because your game is not up to snuff, that the system is all wrong.

Toodles,

Jangles

I have to agree with Jangles, ROGUE, and Bolo. For the most part, the game is fine as it now stands. There are still plenty of opportunities in Team Scrum to excel without using the guns. The other day I had to juke 2-3 others to score. But now, you have to be a more "complete" player. If you can't put turret on tank, as well as drive, juke, etc, you are toast (as you should be) :)

As I mentioned in a previous thread, I am simply shocked no one started busting the lead out sooner...IT'S A TANK!!! That's what it does. Do you expect an anteater to stop using its nose, and use its ear to eat instead? I think ROGUE has nailed it with the "jerks" comment. If you get rid of them, the games are great fun...plenty of challenge, whether you are better at shooting OR driving.

It almost feels like we are trying to implement some kind of "affirmative action" here. We already have it IRL...let's keep it out of TT :)

To be honest sluggy, I'm not in favour of altering the physics of the guns. That would mean a new learning curve for aiming and shooting within scrum servers. A bit like I cant stand servers that mess with the handling and control of tanks. I wouldnt want to have to 'get used to' the way the gun fires on different servers particularly, though something like limiting ammo, or clips within a set time (eg overheating) would work. Please try the health gate option though and revert to knocking off a fraction of health after a dive instead of killing their ammo.

However, and my gripe isnt really the shooting or being shot.. Its moreover the fact that once shot up, there is very little that can be done about it, other than diving or finding one of the few health powerups. In a game of scrum or team scrum there isnt the time to go wandering off to find a health powerup. So yes, the game at the moment favours the BMers. With the health gate, it provides anyone a chance to heal. Yes, its out of the way, off-course slightly.. But you know where it is, you know where you are, its a choice if you want to freshen up instead of waiting to be finished off or diving. If people shoot me up, I have no way of undoing their damage other than diving and sorry, but I think that diving for a fresh tank is wrong and won't do it unless I am so very nearly dead and don't even have any ammo.

As it stands the game is very much geared towards the shooters. I'm not looking to remove that part of the game in any way, I just dont feel that it should be a requisite to enjoy the game. You should be able to play and enjoy without being a BMer, but there being no way to heal means that you will always be at a disadvantage. Forget those little health powerups - the action follows the scrum, and you dont have much choice where to take the action (unlike BM)

I don't know about everyone else, but I have found recently that I am being killed more often when playing scrum games as opposed to BM games. Surely this is wrong?

-Z-

I don't think it's wrong z.

The thing is, in BM, you know people are trying to kill you, so you're keen to it. The scrum is distracting you from this reality. If you're dying more, its not because more people are shooting at you; it's just because you're probably not paying enough as much attention to them.

Meh, after reading all this stuff, I guess my question is this:

Is anybody not having fun?

Less and less TH. When I find myself in a game where I'm perpetually smoking and the only real solution is to dive or wait to be finished off, then I don't enjoy it in the slightest.

I appreciate that keeping an enemy smoking is a tactic, however, there is nothing to counter that tactic other than to dive. With a health gate, I can take the shots, and then drive a little out of the way to heal myself if need be. Still making it advantageous to shoot people and force them to drive off to the gate, but not leaving them with the only real option of diving for a fresh tank.

Maybe it is just me, but I find that over time I am getting worse and worse at the game as lag increases and there isnt much I can do about it. The only decent games are the league games on a good server. I believe that the game should rely upon skill more than it does upon your connection. I have seen games where you all up and leave because of lag in a particular server, and I'll wager even that lag is not close to what non-US players experience. However, the point still remains. Having a low ping is too critical, hence my enjoyment is indeed waning.

What is it exactly about my proposed solution that you don't agree with? I'll reiterate what I'd like to see changed:

1. Health gate (health and ammo) instead of ammo gate on scrum/team scrum games.

2. Sluggy's Out of Bounds script, but returning a tank at reduced health (eg 75%) instead of returning them without ammo

3. No actual in-goal spawns (they just create a mess most of the time). Sure, you might still spawn in the spot right next to a goal, but never actually right in it.

-Z-

I wish we could get our hands on the pre-update build and get a real comparison going of what has changed and its effects. I think the emphasis in the game is really much less on the driving than the shooting, which is not how it used to be, when it seemed I was having much more fun. It never felt quite so doom death-matchy, death and respawning occurring more noticably than scoring and driving.

As someone else said... "Kill or be Killed"

The game shouldn't be changed and people shouldn't have to change just because a few people are whining about not being able to keep up with everyone else, and doesn't want to have to learn a new tactic to stay on top. Your driving around in a freakin' Tank ya know.

Decrease my rounds.... I'll still kill you in the blink of in eye (only takes 2).

I have no objections to tweaking the situations (like Slugthog's) so long as it doesn't dramatically change the handling (ala z's objection).

And yes, Scrum and Team Scrum are becoming more Battle-mode, sometimes to the point where nobody is even trying to get the scrum. They're all just shooting at each other. In Scrum this is especially noticeable when you get the twits who intentionally try to ruin the game for everyone else (no names mentioned as I do NOT want to hijack the thread into another anti-*insert name here* rant).

I believe this is merely an evolution of the game - a loophole has been found, and folks are exploiting it. Should the loophole be closed? It certainly can be. Slug seems to be closest to doing so. I think it probably should be if Scrum is to survive as a game, rather than just a variant on BM.

@Rogue, that was an excellent game - I think the main reasons are:

1) only 4 on each team, not 6 or more. That means you can get away from the flying lead if you're fast enough.

2) it was an even battle. The random games tend to turn into slaughterhouses, as one side is better than the other. This one was give and take, no advantage was long lived. We all had to work our tails off the entire 15 minutes.

3) as an organized league, we all HAVE to remember that the main reason we are there is to score points . Therefore the shooting and killing is much more tactically driven. Sure, you may shoot me a bit to get me smoking, but one of my teammates will finish me off and I'll respawn with full health and ammo.

Probably the easiest solution to balance is to combine the various scripts:

- reduce the amount of ammo carried by Lights (the others are used so infrequently why bother handicapping them?)

- Health Gate to reduce the pre-shooting

One wierd option is to have the shots inflict damage in inverse proportion to the distance from the scrum or goal (whichever is closer). If your target is a long way away from the scrum or the goal he takes almost no damage from shots. The closer he gets the more damage he'll take, until at the goal or carrying the flag he'll take full damage from a shot.

Just my 2 cents

I'm not whining because I can't win at scrum. I'm saying that there are subtleties to scrum and team scrum that are de-emphasized in a heavy battlemode environment. Interesting rhythms develop as people dance around each other for considerably longer periods. It can be a much more *cough* intimate experience, as I believe that more of people's personalities come through in the way they drive and juke about. More defensive strategies involving full, flying body-blocks and HUGE air acrobatics are more common.

So there are different kinds if TT that can be played. There can be more casual play, where there is a lot of chat and less bullets; and there is "play to win" where every opportunity to take advantage is absolutely taken.

I don't always believe that every game I play has to be "play to win". Casual, gentlemenly yet competitive games are also good.

In PS League, of course, the idea is to win. To win you must kill. The Black Sheep figured out early last season that if you want to win, you can't be all gentlemanly to one another. So we agreed to turn it up a notch, go to shooting school, and basically BM the shit out of everybody. As a result WE WON THE PSYCHOSCRUM 5.0 CUP baby!!! WOo00oo00ooOT!! :P

So the issue isn't: 'can we win' given the parameters of the game, it's more about what kind of gameplay do we want when we play. HB and I used to pull the funkiest moves on each other! Now we just let the other person grab the scrum and then just waste him. :o

I still love this game, I have a TON of fun, and I never complain or get worked up over people's tactics because I feel you should be able to do whatever you want given what the game let's you do.

Just some thoughts,

Woooooot!

-Reagent X

Sluggy

Are u sh----g me? I take pride in inflicting damage from across the map. Taking any sort of shooting ability away from a tank is ludicrious. This isnt THinkCARS.

Z

Thats why I dive. I get gang-banged every second. No offense, -z- but the healthgate thing is the worst change I have seen so far. In CTF, whichever side is closest to a health-gate has a HUGE advantage. AND, when im chasing the flag-carrier, he makes a pitstop at the healthgate and then I gotta start all over....u steal the flag away, u run that sucker back to your side...the extra arrows are there for a reason arent they? My personal favorite is when an opponent wants to come take the flag from your side. They grab a powerup, go to the health gate then attack.....the heathgate gives them full health, full ammo, and a faster tank. If I do manage to tear them up, they run away and goto the health gate....why?? U die u go back to your spawn point...not retreat to a health gate...remember I cant even leave the circle to chase them b4 they get health cause of the timer..

In scrum, the person or team ahead can linger around the health gate and burn the clock. Health is precious and it should be. If it were up to me there would be no health powerups or anything. U have an infinite number of lives anyway.

Im glad jangles, rogue, tmo, professor, ho and a few others agree with me. Of course we are all BMers...:)

Everyone thought the antidiving would ruin my game...guess what...IT DIDNT...take away my bullets and see if I still got game....nope...whats next???

In short...u cant shoot...play a game that doesnt have TANKS in the GD title. Woosies.

B

Oops thanks for pointing that out Bolo.. I thought I had taken the health gate out of CTF, but looks like I replaced the wrong file or something. Should be fixed now though, and it was only ever intended for Scrum not the BM orientated game types.

Guess I'll have to leave TT alone then and find something else that isnt so dependant upon a good connection.

-z-

-z- what online shooter games ARENT dependent on a good connection and that resemble TT? I curse lag all the time. I usually end up leaving. It does suck.

Until BT tweaks the game to be more efficient many of the best players such as yourself will be regarded as less than than they ought to be.

Taking shooting out of the scrum equation isnt the answer. The game needs fixing in the lag area...

B

BOLO!

You've made his point I think without knowing it.

TT didn't used to be a shooter.

---

TMO: Really interesting idea about damage being affected by distance. I wonder how that would play

Rx: Really good point about the dance. You know, sometimes [ nay nearly always ] the part that sucks about being killed is not the failure to score, but rather the end of the rhythm, the termination of the tempo. I'm not pissed because I'm dead; I'm pissed because it was so purdy :).

[Conversely, it's great killing the runner before he can ice his cake, n'est ce pas?]

Bolo: I'm not a BMer :).

Last edited: Sunday, July 04, 2004 at 2:54:00 AM

Yea ho your not a BMer....my bad

Also if TT wasnt a shooter to start out with then its improperly named

B

Think + Tanks dog, think + tanks.

Indeed, Bolo did help make my point.

I wouldnt want that. Shooting is an intrinsic part of the game. However, it shouldnt be the 'be all and end all'. There is no counter strategy (even if that strategy is still awkward) If you are shot up and badly smoking, and have no chance at firing back in defence, your only game plan is running. How far can you run without being able to heal or shoot back? Not far.

If you can shoot, you can shoot your way out of trouble in many instances. If you cant (whether due to inexperience or lag) you are left with the only 1 option.. To find a heal powerup. These are very few and far between. The heal gate would be (and ONLY in scrum) a common point on the map, predictable, always there, somewhere to aim for (and conversely somewhere you can be blocked) providing that second option.

The only issue I have about TMO's damage thing is a) it breaks the mould somewhat between game types, and requires people to learn something specific for a different game type that they can't obviously see. It's invisible and could lead to huge confusion, and accusations about 'why does it take 20 shots to kill X when it only took him 5 to kill me just now?' type questions.

TH Yes indeed the rhythm is broken and its sometimes galling, but when I have the flag and get blown up inches from the goal, yes it's initially frustrating, but moments later, I'm kicking myself for taking an obvious path or not doing an extra little dodge instead of just ploughing straight towards the finish line. Yes, its also a great feeling to pump the last necessary shell into a smoking tank just in time to prevent a goal, or to pull off a nice last minute steal. Its that kind of thing that makes it fun and keeps the excitement. But being constantly smoking and one shot away from death before you even get hold of the scrum is highly annoying and kills the fun. Once smoking, you currently have little option other than to dive or find a lucky health powerup.

The health gate doesnt get rid of shooting, it doesnt even invalidate it as a strategy. All it does do, is give people an option instead of diving for a fresh tank, and provides a useful point on the map for any would be runner. Of course, a pure runner would need to make a longer run to utilise it halfway through his run and re-heal. And of course, he still has to make it from the gate to the goal safely..... It just gives him a little bit more of a fighting chance.

It seems everyone except me is talking about ammo changes or altering the shooting physics yet I am the one being criticised for wanting to remove shooting. (although I did briefly mention it would be interesting to test scrum with lower ammo counts, that was never something I proposed as a solution)

-Z-

Last edited: Sunday, July 04, 2004 at 4:25:36 AM

Da.

Hitting the health gate makes for a fun run.

I sense a market for an acrobatic driving game....

GO FOR IT -Z-. You have the right idea, you have the right perspective for making the game a much more enjoyable experience. Thanks for all of your efforts......

Katherine the appreciative

Wow, this topic has been brought up a ton of times, yet this thread seems to be the most intelligent of the bunch! Rather than talk about gentlemen rules, people are talking about modifying the game to make it more even. Excellent, I say! I always love a new situation to explore with new strategies to try! XD A couple comments on some ideas posted:

Range affects impact of bullet: Have to agree with -z- that this would be hard to show. I don't think distance is a problem since it is nearly impossible to get a good shot on a tank if it is moving evasively. However, a couple AE sniper shots do nicely to clear the goal of campers. No need to implement a change.

Ammo differences between lt/med/heavy: This really needs to be changed. Yes, the light tank has weaker bullets, but it fires them so dang fast that it ends up being just as powerful as a heavy. In fact, it is EASIER to kill with a light because you are more likely to get hits in with such a high rate of fire. I have won face-to-face matches against a heavy while in a light, and people KNOW what a lousy shot I am. The light needs the bullets to be either weaker, slower, or shorter range. Then the meds and heavys might stand a chance in the game.

Health gates: I love 'em. 'nuff said. In fact, I wish they were the spawn points so that we wouldn't have goal-spawns.

Sluggy's dive script: So far, I like it. It's a tad frustrating when I get bumped or accidentally fall off, but that's fair enough, if you as me. Go grab a power-up or drive through the ammo gate and drive on!

===============================================

New Idea - Ammo has inertia: There is no way that I can tell that this can be implemted in the current ThinkTanks, but wouldn't it be cool if Ammo had inertia? This is from my experience in a real tank. Follow me on this:

Each shot you fire forwards will slow you down momentarily. Shots fired sideways will slide you the opposite way. There may be times where you will have to decide between maximum speed or maximum firepower. Those with a heavy trigger finger will have a tougher time driving. Mediums and Heavies will obviously be less affected by this.

A heavy's bullet will have so much mass that if it hits a light tank in the front while the light is driving forwards...it will actually knock the scrum off of it. How's that for a teamwork option? The heavy knocks off the scrum, and his light buddy scoops it up. I expect a bit of resistance to this idea, and it may not work as well as I hope. If nothing else, the Heavy's bullets could be enough to marginally push the light around enough to make it miss the speed pad or goal.

In any case, I think bullet inertia would add a great equalizer to the game with many more strategies to explore. Imagine the different powerups! (Iron bullets.)

- Bomb...James Bomb

Excellent thread. Keep the comments coming, we are listening.

One comment though. From the designers perspective, I want to, as much as possible, have behaviors consistent across all game types. I have no problem with having slightly different loadouts for different game types, but the goal is to, as much as possible, present the users with a set of rules that work for the 'game', as in the whole game. Changing the 'rules' from game to game can be confusing and frustrating to the new users just learning the game.

We are very open to this commentary. Soon, I am going to open up a 'wishlist' thread for updates and for TT 2.0

Not promising anything, but I certainly do what feedback from the community on what they think would make the game better.

Be warned, changing things can create new and unexpected problems. Any change, not matter how small, can have a huge impact on the gameplay. It is my job to take the requests of what you want, get to the underlying cause of the problem, and implement a solution that solves the problem (treat the disease, not the symptom).. So keep it coming.. I am paying attention.

Always nice to hear from The Poke in threads like these. As he says, the world here is fragile, and as it is in fact his world, I think we're in good hands (with the lone exception of that noob-friendly bullet update :)).

AE sniper shots JB? Very amusing :).

For me, the frustration isn't with BM happening in team scrum in general but with BM that doesn't happen around the scrum or the goal. That is where the battles should be; clearing/defending the goal and carrying/stealing the scrum. Spawning across the map from all the action and getting blasted doesn't benefit anyone. If I'm killed again, the worse that happens is I spawn in the same bad spot. More than likely, I would spawn closer to the scrum carrier or closer to (or in) the goal. What benefit does the shooter get from this? At best, they delayed me for a few seconds. I guess they might be closer to the real action than I am from my new spawn point. They haven't stopped me from doing anything because I wasn't near the scrum or goal to begin with. On the downside, they may be damaged (hopefully) and easier to kill if/when they reach the real action. If someone scores while I'm dying, my chances of a freebie improve as well. I could also spawn behind my killer and do unto them....

Like RX said, league play is different. The motto has become "everyone must die....now". You see an opponent and you shoot them regardless of location. I do it, my teammates do it, and the other teams do it. No complaints. Unfortunately, this type of play is taking place in the "friendly" games that go on each night. I think some people want the nightly team scrum games on the Frantic Slug, The Baarnyard, and other servers to be less intense (as in you don't have to win at all cost type of games). You can still shoot away if you are clearing the goal, chasing the scrum, or clearing a path to the goal for the scrum carrier. But you don't need to battle someone when the goal & scrum are across the map.

To reduce BM'ing away from the real action, would seperate spawn points for each team be possible? Not permanent spots like those in CTF. Something that takes into account the goal location. Spawn each team a similar distance from the goal. Change the spawn locations when the goal changes locations. There's a script that calculates where to spawn the scrum based on player positions. Can something like that be done for tank spawn points? If not seperate spawn locations for each team, how about preventing two tanks from spawning in the same general area at the same time? Then we don't have tanks spawning behind one another or on top of one another and going straight into BM mode.

Remember, I'm just talking about instances where tanks are spawned far away from the scrum and goal. When spawning near either one or in between them, I expect to be shot.

As for the diving script, I don't mind the return to the point of the dive with less health. I think taking away the ammo is too much. Keeping the diver in the same spot with less health negates the benefits of diving without really punishing players who fall or are pushed off the edge. In a game the other night, I fell off the edge (too much momentum), respawned and chased after the scrum only to be bumped off the edge. I respawned, then drove off the edge in a failed bump/steal attempt (couldn't shoot so steals are the only option). After the 4th spawn, I was finally killed while chasing after the scrum carrier and I respawned with ammo. After each spawn, the scrum was closer than the ammo gate so I went after the scrum. There isn't anything fun about driving around without ammo but I'm not going to abandon the chase and leave my team short handed so I can drive back to an ammo gate. I hadn't done anything that deserved any type of penalty. Why should I be penalized so heavily?

I agree with -z- about not changing the physics of the game. The tanks should behave the same in each game. I'm not wild about changing the ammo amount or damage either. JB's suggestion for inertia sounds interesting. It would add another element to driving and make shooting more challenging (which I don't need). Emptying a clip into someone won't be as easy when your own tank moves with each shot.

Just my two cents. Interesting reading in this thread.

MJ

Me go fast... Big guns go "BLAM-BLAM".....good fun eh?

MJ/JB:

Maybe not the tank, but just the turret, so your aim is less predictable, more shotgun/real worldish so things start to spread but the tank motion itself doesn't suffer

I think it's 56k or Sluggy that wrote a thread on GG re. Stats on the different tanks' fire rate, health, ammo damage, etc. Dig it up!

@JB I like your inertia idea. When we will see mediums and heavy in scrum it will mean something has changed :)

Like -z- just said, I don´t know y u´r making such a big issue about shooting (I mean, I know a code to disable all shooting within a server) The tank stats r fine, I like them just the way they r.

Just follow my idea, y change the whole game when u (as an individual) can change 1 stat on u´r server to make it just the way u like it, with 1 little simple comman on the mis. File u can have it just the way u want it withought having to change the whole game.

Just my thought, sure BMers r a bit anoying in scrum, but no 1 said it wasn´t allowed, what´s the point of having tanks That Can´t Shoot? Might as well declare the game "Scrumming Bumper Cars" it just wouldn´t be as fun, and it would take most of the challenge out of it (if u catch my drift)

Cadc Has spoken :P

Cadc (SA) (Leader)

But to sum it all up, The Game is fine like it is, and the game will be fine as it is, cuss if they edited the statistics of the game, I think it would just boar me. THE GAME IS PERFECT THE WAY IT IS NOW! LIKE I ALWAYS SAY, HATE THE PLAYER, NOT THE GAME a very true statement as I´ve come to find out for so many years of gaming experience ;)

Cadc (SA) (Leader)

Last edited: Monday, July 05, 2004 at 3:11:02 PM

Hugo, u most of all surprise me that u would bring this up, I mean, I know u´r also a good scrumer, and even all the other scrumers have learned to deal with it, I´m both exelling in BM and Scrum, and that´s what separates me from the rest of the croud.

I mean, if u had no chance of catching up to a tank about to scroe, wouldn´t u do anything to stop it?

Sure there r some rule breakers, but trust me when I say, give them a little of their own medicine, fight back, don´t stay as a sitting duck, and u´ll see 95% of the time, they will give up. Fight for u´r rights, don´t let some loser bring u down like this.

Cadc has ended this discussion, and the case of this thread is closed ;)

Cadc (SA) (Leader)

@Cadc: I love the game as it is. But. If more of the same was good enough, than no game would have a sequel. We have found a strategy that works, but it will get old eventually. I'd like to see some changes that would give the game new feel with new strategies eventually.

Hugo heard a common cry and answered it, that's all.

Now, if you are really done with this thread, get that frisbee in the field! I want to do a little skeet shooting! ;)

BombJames Bomb

Heh, yea, my comments just now r quite persuasive B)

I don't know if u heard of this or not, but my hard drive died and I have to earn the ufo all over again :'( on't worry, if I did it once, I cn always do it again ;)

Cadc (SA) (Leader)

@ -Z- We have implimented your health gate into our server. It seems to be a good improvement. I´ve also noticed that it is not available anymore on your site, is there a reason for this or is it due to the update?

Thanks

Jinx

Ah.. Due to the update.. Will rectify. Thanks for spotting that.

-Z-