Forums Index >> General >> Was the snake in the Garden of Eden real?
Could the snake have been a reptilian alien and came to check out the new life form and informed Adam and Eve?
Absolutely...the snake could definitely have been an alien. Matter of fact, I have my suspicions about Noah as well. I mean, think about it...that would have to be an awful big boat for one "man" to build. And, how'd he keep track of all the animals and decide which two got to come on board? How'd the penguins make their way from the north pole to get on the boat? And where did Noah store all of the food for all these animals? And how did he keep the lions from eating the gazelle? And the frogs from eating the flies? And who cleaned up the mess every day? And what did he do with all the fish (if salt water mixed with fresh water)?
Noah was definitely an alien...although probably not a reptilian one.
Last edited: Monday, July 18, 2005 at 3:15:20 PM
Read the 12th planet by zecharis sitchen and his other books and they talk about this stuff Yes also known as annunaki-nephilim the fallen ones or fallen angels.some were also giants.noahs ark was actually a submarine type vehicle.the dna of the animals were stored in the ship-ark.these aliens created the adam.if you read the bible it says we(gods) created man in our image.not I (god) have created man in my image.best to read the books by zecharia sitchen.somethings above I don't believe and some I do.so don't attack what I've said.@ jet jaguar yes there are so many things the christian bibles left out.
and also other religious books too.they make the religions work for them at that period in time.like at some points they didn't want people to believe in angels because that would take away from god.
Last edited: Monday, July 18, 2005 at 9:08:36 PM
STARGATE SG-1!!!!!!!! W0000000t!!!! New episodes every friday on sci-fi! On the topic of the snake thing though... They could still be aliens... What if it is like in hitchikers guide to the galaxy, cept with snakes!
Pardon my rudeness, I cannot abide useless people.
Yes Gamera has shown me some really cool stuff about the 12th planet. There are artifacts from the Sumerian culture from over 2000 B.C. That seem to indicate that we were visited by aliens. We'd know more about it if the Christians hadn't spent the last 2000 years trying to erase earths history and replace it with their own version.
Funny how history is so easy to change...
From this site explaining the existance of this 12'th planet or Planet X
The records of this approximate 7 years of turmoil prior to passing are part of biblical record from at least the last time it came by earth. With correct scientific and historical information you don't need to be a prophet to predict the same cycle of events are happening again during Planet X's approach. These events are just a minor taste of what will come when it goes by this time. And yet even these relatively minor events can cause much destruction. Many areas of the world will begin to be severely effected even before the date of passing in 2003, so don't think you can wait to the last minute and then jet away safely!!
2003 you say huh?
2005 is here...
BTW: Jet Jaguar, of course christians are replacing earths history with their own version... Thats why their recorded hisory matchs up to the history you choose to believe...
A book called The 12th Planet written in 1976 by Zechariah Sitchin tells of the ancient Sumerian legends of a planet with a comet-like orbit that came into our area of the solar system every 3600 years. The inhabitants of this planet were like gods to the earth natives. They shuttled from their planet to earth with rockets and mined gold to take back to their home planet, Nibiru. He contends they were the ones the Bible in Genesis refers to as the Nefilim, and as giants.
And if you read on in this site ....under pole shift
In my book, The Orion Prophecy, I came to the staggering conclusion that the earth will be subjected to a huge disaster. The cause: the magnetic field of the earth will reverse in an instant, resulting in catastrophic consequences for humanity. Immense earthquakes will flatten all buildings on earth; while continents will shift thousands of kilometres and an all-demolishing tidal wave will leave billions of dead people behind.
In my book I scientifically reveal the millennia-old codes of the Maya and the Old Egyptians, which refer to this super-disaster.
You will get carried away in an astonishing series of discoveries about the secrets of a long lost past -- of an antediluvian civilization, which was able to calculate the previous pole shift, and its later descendants, who have calculated the next polar reversal for 2012. I launch this world-shattering message after having cracked several ancient codes of crucial importance to civilization as we approach the year 2012.
And here
In the year 2012 the Earth awaits a super catastrophe: its magnetic field will completely reverse in one go. Phenomenal earthquakes and tidal waves will destroy our civilization. Europe and North-America will shift thousands of kilometres northward and end up in a polar clime. Nearly the whole Earth's population will perish in the apocalyptic events.
Thats alot happening at once... A planet is going to send our sun into chaos and right after it in "2012" the magnetic poles will switch! Causing major disastor it says...
And if you read here , it tells you that the mayans predicted the end of the world.....guess when.... 2012
Now jet jaguar, you read these pages and then read the book of revelation
is it history, or destiny?
Last edited: Monday, July 18, 2005 at 9:29:37 PM
Actually he stated in later books a later date than 2003 more like may 15th 2012 or 2015.also its really the 10th planet but the sumerians counted the moon and sun as planets or celestial bodies and planet X is niburu.
@ Gamera316(ST)
I know its only the tenth planet... Read the sites I posted!
Check out the new info I put up
in 2012 the world will end by the switching of the poles
matches up with this planet passing?
what about the mayans? They knew something
again I say read these and then the book of revelations
Last edited: Monday, July 18, 2005 at 9:26:03 PM
@Jet Jaguar what you don't realize jet is that the bible wasn't made until like a hundred years after Jesus died, so they probably forgot because they didn't have it written down they didn't have mnay things written down anyways.
One thing I don't think is right is that apple gave us intelligence, God was just testing us see if we could hold back our curiousity and without our curiousity we wouldn't be intelligent at all so we aren't gifted with intelligence as most people think we are cursed with curiousity.
Maybe the meteor that killed the dinosaurs brought quickly eveolving bacteria that evolved into us or after the meteor something brought us here to repopulate the planet. Maybe god was an alien that was just like us but from another planet with many more like us. There could be a more evolved planet of humans that is just watching over us, who knows?!
@Warfare that day would truly be the worst because that would be the day before my birth.
Last edited: Monday, July 18, 2005 at 9:35:48 PM
^ but the same people who say that we are cursed with curiosity would say if adam didnt eat the apple, we would be cursed with no choice
the apple was god's gift of choice
to have a piece of paper you must have 2 sides right
what is good if there is no evil?
so, god made ONE rule, and adam and eve broke it
This one is a good site
this guy claims to be from the future
A world war in 2015 killed nearly three
billion people.The people that survived grew closer together. Life is
centered on the family and then the community
Revelations says after the apoclylypse there will be a happy 1000 years...
Is there some sort of new world government in place by 2011?
On my world line in 2011, the United States is in the middle of a civil war
that has dramatic effects on most of the other Western governments.
The bible in matthew says some things about a big nation going to war with itself
Yes, there are unusual
events in 2012 but they do not cause the world to end.
Really?
He also predicts the mad cow scare
(3) The "Mad Cow" story here is yet to begin but don't worry, the fruited
gelatine deserts are safe.
Although I dont believe this guy, his predictions are pretty wierd and during the time we are disscussing
So far I am seeing a major series of events all happening at the same time
Last edited: Monday, July 18, 2005 at 10:33:05 PM
Hi this doesn't have to do with the 10th planet but I thought everyone would like to see mars next month look almost as big as the moon in the sky. The Red Planet is about to be spectacular!
This month and next, Earth is catching up with Mars in an encounter that
Will culminate in the closest approach between the two planets in
Recorded history. The next time Mars may come this close is
In 2287. Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on
Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be
Certain that Mars has not come this close to Earth
In the Last 5,000 years, but it may be as long as
60,000 years before it happens again.
The encounter will culminate on August 27th when
Mars comes to within 34,649,589 miles of Earth and
Will be (next to the moon) the brightest object in
The night sky. It will attain a magnitude of -2.9
And will appear 25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest
75-power magnification
Last edited: Monday, July 18, 2005 at 9:58:49 PM
Mars will look as large as the full moon to the naked eye.
Mars will be easy to spot. At the
Beginning of August it will rise in the east at 10p.m.
And reach its azimuth at about 3 a.m.
By the end of August when the two planets are
Closest, Mars will rise at nightfall and reach its
Highest point in the sky at 12:30a.m. That's pretty
Convenient to see something that no human being has
Seen in recorded history. So, mark your calendar at
The beginning of August to see Mars grow
Progressively brighter and brighter throughout the
Month.
I am sooooo dusting off my telescope! ^ that sounds awesome
@Warfare
First of all I don't claim to have much knowledge of the 12th planet. I've only seen a few videos by a professor who translated sumerian tablets and they do talk of being visited by people from a 12th planet in our universe. I know there are only 9 planets but the sumerians believed that the sun and the moon were planets so therefore the last planet would be the 12th.
BTW: Jet Jaguar, of course christians are replacing earths history with their own version... Thats why their recorded hisory matchs up to the history you choose to believe...
I have not expressed my beliefs other than that I do not believe the christian version of it. The christians throughout history have attempted to wipe out religions and historical artifacts that are not consistant with their views. In my opinion I do not believe in christianity because if it was the real deal they wouldn't have to go to such great lengths to push their beliefs on us and to cover up our true history.
Now jet jaguar, you read these pages and then read the book of revelation
is it history, or destiny?
Actually it's fiction, atleast the majority of you better hope so. When Ezra spoke to god through the angel Uriel, God stated that only very few men will enter into heaven at the end of creation. One of the comparisons he used was "as a seed is to a field", that is how many men will enter into heaven. In fact the book of Ezras indicates that it will be the men of Isreal that are the righteous. God has a special name reserved for the rest of us. I believe the word he used was "Spittle".
Revelations says after the apoclylypse there will be a happy 1000 years...
Actually this conflicts with Ezras, the other books of Revalations. In Ezras God states that there will be a week of years. Indicating that it will only be 7 years after the coming of christ that the world will be undone and those years will be filled with sorrow. Seven different ones I believe.
@Pyronin
No actually there were stone carvings and wall paintings and many other writings that the christians of the past have destroyed calling them herasey. Examples: Egyptian Hyroglyphs, Sumerian stone carvings, and stone paintings(I would use the Necronomicron which was supposed to be written by the sumerians, as an example but I'd need to do more research before I state it as fact). The fact is the christians of the past and many of the present have attempted to rewrite the history of our world for their own purposes. And personally I don't appreciate it much.
Last edited: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 at 12:45:55 AM
I state, forthe millionth time on PTT, in 2012 the poles are going to change. This coincides with the time the mayans perdicted the apocolyps AND when scientists think I commet might be crossing earths oprbit. How would we stop a comet? With computer controlled nukes of course. But, what would happen if the poles switch? All the computers will be useless. Therfor, we will be completely vaunerable. If we would be cought in the tail of a comet, scientists say it would be about the equivelent of nucualar bombs going off all over the wolrd, for about three years. That is why I am still trying to design a spaceship that will take jimmy, dj, and anyone else (only fits 75-100 people) away. Then, we will repopulate another planet and start over! This has already started.
Pardon my rudeness, I cannot abide useless people.
^What if that planet gets hit by a comet as well?
Wow, this is an interesting thread... Ya know, the people believed that the year 2000 would be the apocalypse...
Anyway, this is my view, in my own words:
The snake was NOT an alien, it was the devil himself, as with his evil powers he can transform into almost any form. I laugh at people who think that Noah was an alien. God gave him special graces and even powers to make him great enough to complete the ark and load the animals. His relatives also helped him build the Ark. God can do anything and anything is possible if you believe in God and ask him to help you.
Say what?
@Gamera- If u think about it, the sun hasn't hit the eath in this way for over a million years. Every day we see things that are truly astounding, yet we brush them off like our teeth.
@ Jet- Hmm... Good point. Comets tails are about a lightyear long sometimes, sooooo... Crap. We will hafta build a yhperdrive generator!
Pardon my rudeness, I cannot abide useless people.
@Jet Jaguar
I am sorry the christians you know are trying force christianity on you (whether you know them or not, heard stories, media, etc) but not all christians are like that
As for ezra
you are quoting from the old testament
the nation of israel was put on "the back burner" after they denounced christ as their king
the new testament is about how gods gift of salvation thru christ is open to everyone
but you are right about one thing... The bible makes promises to israel for the apocylypse, and those are israel's promises, not christianity or everyone you think god calles "Spittle". Just becuase someone has an heir, dosnt mean thats the only person they love
@Jet Jaguar
and after the 7 years of sorrow? Did you read that far?
1000 years of peace
@ max
have you ever read the bible?
And you are calling the chrisians today "pride-less, poor, satisfied, un-sexual, emotionless, unmotivated, ignorant hard laborers"?
That is not what we are supposed to be
go read titus, or acts, or hebrews, or corinthians
those have everything to be about Leaders!
the bible says that we are FORGIVEN from our sins and says we wont stop doing it
in other words if someone is "pride-less, poor, satisfied, un-sexual, emotionless, unmotivated, ignorant hard laborers" and they dont beleive, they wont be saved
I guess we will all find out when we die then huh? By then it wont matter who is right or wrong will it?
Pride is relative
pride in your own works can only go so far
after you start patting yourself on the back a whole lot, then its wrong
we are not supposed to be pride-less, we can have pride, we are just supposed to be humble about it
We are not supposed to be satisfied
everything but! The bible says DONT be satisfied with the world
There is pleanty of sex in the bible
the book called the song of solomon aka the song of songs if filled to the brim with sex
its almost like porn
We are not intended to be emotionless
pick any book of the bible and it will tell that to you
We are plenty motivated, what have we got to be unmotivated about?
wouldent you be motivate if you had a PERSONAL relationship with the creator of the universe?
And whose ignorant? If I can backfire all of your statements someone hasnt been studing have they?
And whats wrong with labor, we all work, we all need money
I am sure you are going to go to collage to get a good job
everyone works
I know a few people like your statement and they sure as hell are not christain
Now here is an example:
You walk on the beach to find letters written in the sand, "Bob loves Sue".
and you say, "hey, look what the waves did!".
well, thats silly isnt it, of course someone had to have written it, its a message, its intellegence
so you walk over to the nearest tree with a heart and two names carved in it and you say, "Wow, check out how the bark of this tree formed this!"
well thats silly too right? Of course someone carved that, its a message, intellegence
so when you get there, in a cell in its nucleus, deep down we find DNA
now, DNA is a message, a code for our bodys, and it takes intellegence to read it, and its so complex our top scientists cant figure out how the enzymes know what protiens to make based on the amount of sugar and phosphates and whatever it recieves. But what do people like you do?
"Hey, look what the big bang did!"............
Last edited: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 at 11:32:58 AM
@Jet Jaguar
So because of the christains 1500 years ago
you hate christians today.....
@ Gamera316(ST)
You said
The bible it says we(gods) created man in our image
It actually says
Then God said, "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves ."
This is a reference to the Trinity, not aliens...
See also Matthew 28:19 and John 14:26
And colossians 1:16 says
Christ is the one whrough whom God created everything in heaven and earth.
God was the architect and Christ was the builder... Read on to find out what the Holy Spirit was
Luke 24:49
And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my Father promised.
In other translations it says he is sending a helper
Last edited: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 at 11:53:14 AM
How did this go from a discussion on the historic importance of alien snakes to predicting the apocalypse 2 years after I graduate to a religious discussion?
I am a jew.
Right warfare let us make people in our image.i was using my own words there.or from the books of zecharia sitchen in genesis revisited
Last edited: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 at 12:23:47 PM
So you delete your post eh max?
well, you know what you wrote so here is my answer:
Sounds like an argument to me and I dont think it is out of context
Which sounds more likely to you?
An impossible God who herds pride-less, poor, satisfied, un-sexual, emotionless, unmotivated, ignorant hard laborers.
or
An alien race somewhere among the billions of stars that sees potential in the human race and is interested in saving it from extinction.
And repenting does not save you, believing in christ does
Besides, you havent read any of the things I pointed out and I did not say the entire bible was like porn, just the one book within the bible
And we are not talking about what I believe, we are talking about truth, and christianity came up
you get to talk about your point of view, yet somehow I dont?
I am not disagreeing with the first half of the post, that much was correct besides obvious sarcasm
and the comment on how any desire for anything is sin is a cathlioc thing....
but if I am obtuse, why are you commenting on the christian belief as a whole and getting angry at me for combatting it?
yes I agree with you about most christians being hypocrites, but what about the minority of christians that are not?
and yes I am full aware you dont care about my beliefs, but if you get to make your point, why is it so bad that I try to?
I care because you insulted the christian belief as a whole, that includes me
but I am not like what you say
sure I make mistakes, I sin, we all do, you even defined what sin was for us
but I actually try to "practice what I preach" instead of doing junk while no one is looking
Another thing. Obviously you said you dont care about my beliefs, does that make yours any more valid?
who decided your personal thoughts were the ones to be cared about, if mine were not?
I am obiously not Jerry Falwell
And why christianity?
what about islam, buddism, mormanism, or like new age
and dont say I brought it up, check out the name of the thread we are all posting in...
the argument here is the snake in the garden real...
you are arguing against, I am arguing for... Simple as that
Last edited: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 at 12:46:59 PM
One thing more...
if I am the only christian on PTT then I guess I should leave
but if I am not, what do you make of the others who dont have the guts to post?
My argument is only going in circles because you are in charge of the ride, you keep taking me in circles
just because the majority of the christian population is doing it wrong, doesnt mean that I am the same as well.
and where in there do I deserve an insult max?
Warefare Could not argue his way out of a cardboard box... He would just keep going in circles.
what did I ever do to you?
This is my last post.
believe what you want
no where in there did I say I cared about what you think
I was following suite and making my point like the rest of you
@Warfare
You walk on the beach to find letters written in the sand, "Bob loves Sue".
and you say, "hey, look what the waves did!".
well, thats silly isnt it, of course someone had to have written it, its a message, its intellegence
so you walk over to the nearest tree with a heart and two names carved in it and you say, "Wow, check out how the bark of this tree formed this!"
well thats silly too right? Of course someone carved that, its a message, intellegence
so when you get there, in a cell in its nucleus, deep down we find DNA
now, DNA is a message, a code for our bodys, and it takes intellegence to read it, and its so complex our top scientists cant figure out how the enzymes know what protiens to make based on the amount of sugar and phosphates and whatever it recieves. But what do people like you do?
"Hey, look what the big bang did!"............
Your analogy and arguement are not at all valid and illustrate that you have a very poor understanding of the process of evolution. It is, however, very common (so don't feel too bad about being so wrong) and is often called the 'Arguement from Design'. The arguement states (as you did) that tremendous complexity (for example, an eye, or a cell, or a brain, or DNA, etc.) could not have come into existence simply by chance...they are self-evidently the product of design and therefore must be evidence of an intelligent creator (e.g., a god). One of the first to make your arguement was William Paley back in the 1800s. Paley argued that if someone found a pocket watch lying on the ground (with all of it's intricate wheels and cogs and clear funtionality) and concluded it had come to be there simply by chance, like a rock (or a note on the sand), that would be ludicrous. The watch is clearly the product of an intelligent designer -- a watchmaker. Paley went on to argue that if one looks at an eye (which is infinitely more complex than a watch) and concludes that it came about by chance, as opposed to being the product of intelligent design, that person would be similarly ludicrous. The eye is so complex and serves such a clear functionality, the arguement goes, it must have been designed by something akin to a watchmaker (god). The arguement is clean, easy to understand and compelling...but it's totally wrong because it's based on false premises.
Evolution is the complete opposite of a random event. Evolution does not produce complexity by chance...there is inherent design in the form of natural selection. You have to understand how millions of iterations of small, random changes being naturally selected based on non-random forces (physics, survival, etc.) sequence and combine to produce tremendous complexity. I urge you to read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. He explains evolution, and the fallacy of the Arguement from Design much better than I ever could and in a writing style that is easy to understand...it might change your life.
Here are some interesting excerpts:
Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning. The purpose of this book is to resolve this paradox to the satisfaction of the reader, and the purpose of this chapter is further to impress the reader with the power of the illusion of design. We shall look at a particular example and shall conclude that, when it comes to complexity and beauty of design, Paley hardly even began to state the case.
We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully 'designed' to have come into existence by chance. How, then, did they come into existence? The answer, Darwin's answer, is by gradual, step- by-step transformations from simple beginnings, from primordial entities sufficiently simple to have come into existence by chance. Each successive change in the gradual evolutionary process was simple enough, relative to its predecessor, to have arisen by chance. But the whole sequence of cumulative steps constitutes anything but a chance process, when you consider the complexity of the final end-product relative to the original starting point. The cumulative process is directed by nonrandom survival. The purpose of this chapter is to demonstrate the power of this cumulative selection as a fundamentally nonrandom process.
Evolution has no long-term goal. There is no long-distance target, no final perfection to serve as a criterion for selection, although human vanity cherishes the absurd notion that our species is the final goal of evolution.
What use is half a wing? How did wings get their start? Many animals leap from bough to bough, and sometimes fall to the ground. Especially in a small animal, the whole body surface catches the air and assists the leap, or breaks the fall, by acting as a crude aerofoil.
...There are animals alive today that beautifully illustrate every stage in the continuum. There are frogs that glide with big webs between their toes, tree-snakes with flattened bodies that catch the air, lizards with flaps along their bodies, and several different kinds of mammals that glide with membranes stretched between their limbs, showing us the kind of way bats must have got their start. Contrary to the creationist literature, not only are animals with 'half a wing' common, so are animals with a quarter of a wing, three quarters of a wing, and so on.
The idea of tiny changes cumulated over many steps is an immensely powerful idea, capable of explaining an enormous range of things that would be otherwise inexplicable.
Last edited: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 at 1:11:46 PM
There is only one God, believe in him what ever way u wish. Or don't. It's hard to believe that some religions,,uh umm, think that dying while blowing up hundreds of innocent people takes them right to Heaven. Now I really pity them.
Last edited: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 at 1:25:21 PM
True or False: The title of the thread asks, "Christians: Persecuted by their Own Ideology?"
I'll leave on one more inflammatory note.
Warfare writes, "now, DNA is a message, a code for our bodys, and it takes intellegence to read it, and its so complex our top scientists cant figure out how the enzymes know what protiens to make based on the amount of sugar and phosphates and whatever it recieves. But what do people like you do?"
Nobody who makes that many grammatical errors and spelling errors and—with respect to your entire post, logical errors—has the authority to lecture anybody about anything. Intelligent Design is a marketing ploy, and nothing more. It's founders propagators are clever advertising men who devised a public relations strategy based on theological zealotry. It asks questions while answering and asserting nothing, just to get a seat at the table of willing to be snacked on those who may be willing.
If evolution is not real, what's a disease doing when it becomes immune to treatment? Is god changing it? Does god want to harm us?
"I don't understand it, so it must be true....er, make that false" is some garbage thinking you should keep to yourself.
Last edited: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 at 1:51:27 PM
Warfare, it's just a tired topic 'round here.
Denouncing religion with zeal is sadly something that some of the adults here find all too enjoyable. Just FYI. They've most often proved themselves as having a very poor understanding of it...so just tolerate it IMO. Snakes in the grass to some I guess.
Let the kids have their space guys. Quit building threads into crucibles.
Better enjoy ice water and air conditioning while you can Tally.
Luke 8:14 (New International Version)
The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
Us believers will continue to pray for your hardened heart.
Oh, and one more thing... "I" before "e" except after "c"
What a day!
This is going to be off-topic, but who cares? Gotta agree with you rogue. It's very annoying to read threads here on general section. All of the somewhat more serious threads are half full of copy paste text. And people say read this: here is that guy telling that jabbadadaaa. Yeah, sure I will read. Did you read it yourself? Arrgggg and interest to that thread dropped down to zero. Like come on can’t you guys write it by your own words? I could give a less about some experts thought. I'm more interested what you guys have to say about that matter.
Okay just had to open up...
You don't have to let go of one rope before grabbing the other. But you'll have to let go of one if you want to swing forward.
The 12th planet and the books that follow talk about the adam and the snake and eve and tree of knowledge so its not off topic but another view from that author.i figured people would like that info and have open minds.i have read these books
including the bible.
Last edited: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 at 4:45:19 PM
@Warfare
And after the 7 years of sorrow? Did you read that far?
1000 years of peace
Actually I have read that far, farther than you might imagine. And I wasn't quoting the book of Ezra I was quoting the books of Edras. Sorry if I didn't make that clear above. And in Edras God(the fictional one) clearly states that after the 7 years the men who are not accepted into heaven return to dust. If there is 1000 years of peace after then it is only for a very few and God clearly implies that it will only be the men of Isreal. You can bounce around between Old Testament and New but if God says one thing in one book and then a completely different thing in another then he is a liar. Below is a link to the book of Esdras. This book is not in most Bibles. It is however accepted religious text by almost all religions. They don't put this book and many others in the bible for exactly this reason. Too many christians would ask too many questions about why it seems that God only loves the men of Isreal.
You see Churches are a business. They send around the collection plate every sunday and you can be sure they want it coming back as full as possible. Priests and Pastures like to eat. And some like to eat really well. If they included these books in the bible it is certain that they would loose a percentage of their following. They would also lose a percentage of the collection plate. The truth is that 95% of the people out there who claim to be saved or christian have not even read the books in their own bible not to mention the texts that have been omitted for policy reasons.
Here is a link that will show you the books of the bible including the ones that many denominations exlude. There is also a verse from Psalms that has been excluded from most bibles because again it speaks of the people of Isreal.
http://etext.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html
I am sorry the christians you know are trying force christianity on you (whether you know them or not, heard stories, media, etc) but not all christians are like that
Yes I've been told this by other christians before. The problem is that though your church may not be at that point at this time, but it will or can become that in the future. We've seen that proven to us here in the U.S. This nation was established based on religious freedoms. It is even provided for in our constitution that no religion shall gain control over the government. But because a few stubborn founding fathers insisted on putting the word God in the constitution the christians in this country are now forcing their religious beliefs on us and using the constitution to say that this is somehow what the founding fathers had intended. Ever since the constitution was created christians have been influencing our government to do things like put "In God we trust" on our money, in the 1950's they added the phrase "under God" into our pledge of allegiance and they now act like it's always been that way. They force children to pray in school, they put religious monuments in our places of law, they pass laws based on their religious beliefs. Just look at the Terry Shivo law they tried to pass. It clearly states in the constitution that no law shall be erected for one individual. Did they care?
In answer to your question yes we here in America who do not believe in christianity feel a constant pressure by christians and our government to adopt to a religion we do not and should not be forced to believe in.
@Jet Jaguar
So because of the christains 1500 years ago
you hate christians today.....
I do not hate the individual christian because I know that without being brainwashed as a child, most of them probably wouldn't be part of a religion that has killed more innocent people around the world than any other. I do recognize the danger of continuing to allow these religions to destroy our cultures and lives. I did not see that 5 or 10 years ago but I see it now, not because of what christians did 1500 years ago but for what christians are doing today. Not only are we killing innocent people in the name of your God but we(United States) are trying to force christianity on the rest of the world. In Iraq many of the aid workers we've sent over are working to infect their society with christian views. The teachers we've sent to teach their children, many are nuns. The food we sent over after the war had bible verses on the packaging as if to say the only reason you are eating this food is because our God provided it.
To quote Jerry Falwell "I think the president should just go over there and kill them all". That is a christian value for ya.
So you delete your post eh max?
Yes another christian value, censorship. Christains believe they are ordaned by God to tell us all what we can and can't say. Here in America(the free?) one of the major television networks made a tv movie about our former Republican president Ronald Reagan. The christian Republicans threw a fit and threatened the network with legal action and boycotts if they aired the movie because it did not make Reagan out to be the saint christians want him to be.
Which leads us to another great christian value, rewriting history to be what they want it to be, not what it really was. In truth Reagan gave fully automatic machine guns to 11 and 12 year old children so they could go out to battle and die or kill other children. Don't get me wrong I blame President Carter just as much as Reagan but the christians don't mind if you tell the truth about Carter, just not about Reagan. In case you are too young or just didn't know. Jimmy Carter gave weapons to the Iraqi government so they could win the war against Iran. Iran then captured many of our citizens and kept them for 444 days. Once Reagan was in office he then gave the same weapons to Iran in exchange for the hostiges. What they both knew at the time was that the average Iraqi and Iranian soldier was in fact 11 to 12 years old. How did they know? Because it was on the cover of almost every news magazine at the time. Iran and Iraq had been fighting the war for so long that they had run out of adults to fight the war for them. President Reagan and Carter are both responsible for the deaths of 10's of thousands of innocent children, some of them as young as 8 or 9 years old. And those are just the soldiers. There were many infants killed in the crossfire. As if that weren't bad enough the same weapons we gave to Iran and Iraq are now being used against our soldiers in Iraq and also against the children of Iraq. Yes that's right the bombs they use to blow up children as the U.S. Army is passing out candy came from the munitions we gave them. I take responsibility for this because I am an american. Do the christians ever take responsiblity for anything? No.
Besides, you havent read any of the things I pointed out and I did not say the entire bible was like porn, just the one book within the bible
Actually the Christians have started burning books again here in Texas. They are burning the childrens book Harry Potter. They say it is full of withcraft and that is obviously a terrible thing. The Bible however is full of incest, child molestation, murder, crime, adultery, and just about every terrible thing a person can imagine and yet christians put the bible in the hands of children before they can even finish complete sentences. Gotta love those christian values.
@Warfare
I just want to make sure you understand I'm not attacking you or trying to hurt your feelings with my post. My views may be new to you but that is because in most forums( not forums in the literal sense) a non-believers views are censored. The internet is about the only place you can find honesty these days. Anyways Peace to you man.
@Tally Ho
I am a jew.
Lucky Bastard.
Tally Ho
"I don't understand it, so it must be true....er, make that false" is some garbage thinking you should keep to yourself.
Warfare
One thing more...
if I am the only christian on PTT then I guess I should leave
but if I am not, what do you make of the others who dont have the guts to post?
I had just finished this nice long-winded paragraph to Warfare about how you might notice none of us non-believers have asked you not to express your opinion. Then I read your post and had to delete it. Now I don't get to act self-righteous. Thanks!
Seriously though I do understand where you are coming from. It is hard to get through to a christian because they have a really big support group. I could explain to you how mass hysteria is the weapon of God(and cults) but it would go on forever and my fingers are starting to hurt. Lol.
@Rogue and Triv
The discussions seem to ultimately become a battle of search engines.
All of the somewhat more serious threads are half full of copy paste text. And people say read this:
If all the person says is here go read this and you'll see what I mean then yeah I agree. The use of a link to back up what you have stated however is important. The person wants to let the reader understand that his opinion is informed. I can't stand it when someone just chimes in with an opinion and has no fact or information to back it up. My brother is a Republican and he will express an opinion on the latest political thing and the only information he gathered to form his opinion is what other Republicans told him. I then offer him facts from video and other media information and he gets mad and says that's not true. He actually said to me "You're problem is you know too much". I think that's just stupid. Stupid people are the bane of existance and I've told him that many times.
@Gamera316
I've been reading more about the 12th planet. Alot of it sounds pretty cool. There was something on the link that Warfare gave us though that I thought was pretty stupid. It said something about planets having magnatism. Do you know what the link in Warfare's post is talking about? I hate to break it to the person who wrote that but gravity and magnatism are not the same. If it was then only metal objects would fall to earth while everything else floated of into space. As far as I know planets are not magnetic. There may be somewhat of a magnetic field generated by the atmosphere but not strong enough to affect heavenly bodies.
Last edited: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 at 3:41:02 AM
I am a jew.
Finally someone I can identify with, being Jewish myself.
There is a surmountable difference between fundamentalist Christians, and every other Christian that doesn't feel the need to banish the unbelievers or say Jesus or hell. Christianity is just like any other group, there are radical factions to every group. The problem with the radical is they want everyone to be on their side no matter what. If the making of laws gets everyone on their side, then that's what they want to happen.
Some radicals want to have lines drawn in the sand for the sake of themselves so that they can do what is right and know who is on what side. Take any issue at hand in today's society, same sex unions, abortion, war, right to life, right to death, right to do whatever you darn well please. Most People want to know who is right and who is wrong, and they want specific answers for the specific problems in life. If you have read any of the scriptures, you will begin to see that when God's people begin drawing lines in the sand, sorting out who is right and who is wrong, then bad things begin to happen. Babylonian exile, loss of the temple in 70AD, the Reformation, the 100 years war, fill in the blank as you see God's history deal with the self-righteous.
All God wants, in my interpretation, is for us to come to the understanding that God is the prime mover, not us. When we come to certain moralistic debates and drawing lines in the sand, and then think we have it ALL figured out, you will always find that God, and for me, Christ, is on the other side as well. Live your life and find your morality with that revelation.
Again there is a surmountable difference between the radical Christians of the media and the rest of us who don't feel the need to make our faith all that public. Differences in theology, interpretation of the bible, God's righteousness, the end times, historical interpretation, absolution, pluralism; no one Christian group has the same theology on any of these topics, and to place the label 'christian' and assuming it means the group the media is talking about, is short-sighted.
Last edited: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 at 8:26:29 AM
@Memphis
Great post. I especially liked this line..."When we come to certain moralistic debates and drawing lines in the sand, and then think we have it ALL figured out, you will always find that God, and for me, Christ, is on the other side as well."
I wish there were more out there like you. Strong faith, righteous perspective and solid spirituality -- kudos.
Your post begs this question in my mind...
Does your religion's teachings (those of the formal organization -- be it Lutheran, Catholic, Islam, Judaism, whatever) make it more challenging for you to maintain that interpretation and perspective?
Seems to me, religion is the politics of spirituality.
@Memphis
There is a surmountable difference between fundamentalist Christians, and every other Christian that doesn't feel the need to banish the unbelievers or say Jesus or hell. Christianity is just like any other group, there are radical factions to every group. The problem with the radical is they want everyone to be on their side no matter what. If the making of laws gets everyone on their side, then that's what they want to happen.
Actually christians need for others to believe as they do comes from their own doubt in what they believe. They know they have doubts but try to over compensate for that doubt by trying to force others to do the same. The mind figures if everyone else believes it also, then It must be true. It's just a reaction the brain has to feelings of doubt and the guilt the mind feels from that doubt. I realize not all christains have that problem at this time but from what I've seen christianity evolves in a person. What they start out believing changes later on. It takes a while for the guilt over their doubts to become a problem for them. For instance your church probably has a religious leader who feels the same way you do. You go to church and hear what he says and your beliefs become closer to his the more you hear him speak. Now let's say your church changes leaders or your present leader changes his views. Then every sunday he will tailor his sermen to his views and again you will gravitate to those same views. You can't help it, it's called mass hysteria.
I know mass hysteria has become a dirty word and anyone who is told they suffer from it is insulted but it should not be that way. We all suffer from it every time we watch the television. Mass hysteria works differently on television than it does in church but the affect is the same. For instance, a person who has never gone to church before but starts going because of family pressure or spouse pressure will sit as far in the back of the church and pretend to be interested. They will sing some of the songs but in a very low voice. When they bow their head they don't really pray they are just waiting for others to finish praying. When the pasture asks for everyone who wants to be saved come up to the alter, this person doesn't go. BUT the more they go to church they more they start to change.
This is not the Holy Ghost, this is mass hysteria. The human mind has no control over this. Anytime a person is put in a situation where everyone around him is doing the same thing that person will start to do the same even if they originally did not want to. This church goer looks around every sunday and sees everyone else believes it and can't help but to start to believe it also. Before long this church goer is waving his arms in the air, singing at the top of their lungs, sitting as far up front of the church as possible, and eventually when the pasture says who wants to be saved this person goes up to the alter and balls like a 2 year old. This is not because they were saved or because the Holy Ghost has entered their body, it is because they so want to be normal. And in this situation "normal" is people flailing around shouting "hallelujah", "praise Jesus", and "go tell it on the mountain". After church everyone comes up and showers this person with affection and praise and suddenly this person is finally accepted into the church. But wait a minute! Wasn't this person accepted to the church the first time they came in? Hell no. Most people knew this persons name and smiled and said hi but withheld acceptance because the person was obviously not one of them. Now that the person has given in to this group pressure(mass hysteria), everyone wants to be their best friend. People say things like "Oh you should come over for dinner", or "We should let our kids play together", or a host of other things that had until this time not been offered.
Now I know it may upset some people to hear this but this is exactly what goes on in a cult. When someone is either forced or pressured into joining a cult they are welcomed by only a few who act as they are trying to help them be saved or become one of the chosen few. This person is shunned by the others though and only when this person finally gives in to the beliefs of the cult are they finally accepted and treated nicely by the other members. Everyone makes a big deal about it and that persons brain can't help but enjoy the feeling of being accepted so it affirms that the decision to become like the others was the correct decision. Just like the church goer who finally went up to the alter to be saved.
The next stage for the church goer is where they decide they so liked this feeling of acceptance that they want to feel it again. So suddenly they start reading the bible, engaging in bible debates, volunteering for church activities, and spending as much time at church functions as they can so as to show everyone how devoted they are. The more the person does these things the more they are praised and again the brain is swimming in warm feelings. Eventually this person gets so far into this religion(or cult) that they start to speak in a language that does not and never has existed called Tongues. A language where the person goes LaLaLaLaLaLa La La LaLaLa, where every word in this non-existant language sounds exactly like the word before it. Yet no one understands what this person is saying, not even the other people in the church who claim to also be able to speak the same language.
My point in all of this Memphis is that the non radical christians eventually become the fundamentalists for this same reason, mass hysteria. It's not a term meant to insult people, it's a clinilogical term for something the human brain does to deal with a situation it has been presented with. When any person is put in a group of other people they become more like those people. Like when a person moves from a state in Northern United States to the South they start to talk like the people in the south do. When a white kid has to attend a majority black school he adapts to the situation by talking, walking, and acting black. Like when a person is kidnapped for whatever reason they start to sympothize with the hostage taker. These are all forms of mass hyseria.
Why do humans feel the need to believe in a higher power? Because their brain cannot deal with the responsibility of believing that they are in complete control of their destiny. Everyone believes in something yet no one has any proof that their belief is true. I know christians will argue that and say the bible was written by God but that is just what they have been told to believe. It's a programmed response. Science has been proving christianity wrong since the bible was written. Christians just deny the truth as a mental shield. Imagine if you had believed in a mystical being all your life to the point that you had made a fool out of yourself in front of everyone you know and then one day someone comes along with proof that you are wrong, don't you think you would deny it? Accepting this knowledge would mean that you had wasted your entire life believing a lie. The brain cannot deal with this shock so it tells itself whatever it has to.
The church used to say the world was flat and would behead someone if they said differently. The church still tries to claim that evolution is a theory when there is a literal mountain of evidence proving it is not. Until recently the church denied there was life on other planets until Pope John Paul admited that the bible was wrong when bacterial life was found on Mars. There are thousands of contradictions in the bible itself and no proof whatsoever that any of the books were writen by anyone other than a few guys who had been misled.
Currently the christian world is searching for what they call a New Testament of James or the Gospil of James. James is Jesus' brother by the way. In the Gospil of James it is said that it will fill in the gap from when Jesus was 9 years old(I believe it was 9) up until the age of 30.You see the bible does not say what happened to Jesus in this period. This book or group of books do not exist, were never mentioned in any religious text, even the unaccepted ones, and no one even knows if James knew how to write. It is a complete work of fiction but I believe they will find it. All they need are some papyrus leaves from 100 A.D. That are blank, some ink from that era, and some religious scholars who know how to write in aramaic. They will justify their actions by saying it's for the good of the church. I'm sure this new testament will address many of the issues that have caused doubt in christianity just like the last New Testament did when it came out. When the New Testament was found(I use the word loosely) it suddenly made the christian religion more appealing to the masses and more atainable. All the hard rules like no cloven hooved animals shall be eaten, or no bottom feeding sea creatures, and suddenly adultery was not such a bad thing. God was only kidding in the Old Testament. He just wanted to show you that you couldn't live the way he said you had to live in order to be get into heaven. So in essance the Old Testament was a practical joke played by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I'm sure they had a good laugh on that one. If you believe the Old Testament was a lie then why should anyone believe the New Testament is not?
If people who say they are christians really believe what they say they believe, fine. But do me one favor, don't force your kids to go to church or believe in god. Wait until they can atleast make consious decisions on their own and let them decide. Christians teach their children words like Jesus, hell, sin, heaven, God, bible, and all the other words christians use when their children are only learning to say papa or momma. This is brainwashing. Now christians will say it's for a good reason but I say no, there is never a good reason to brainwash a child. If christians really believe that their religion is right, then let the children grow up and give them the choice to believe. If Christianity is truly the one religion and God is truly great then shouldn't these children still choose to be christians?
Last edited: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 at 10:10:36 AM
@44 -
Does your religion's teachings (those of the formal organization -- be it Lutheran, Catholic, Islam, Judaism, whatever) make it more challenging for you to maintain that interpretation and perspective?
Not so much the formal organization as it is the people in the pews.
@ Jet - You have obviously spent much time on this topic and I would love to give you and answer that is equal the amount of time you have spent on yours. Suffice it to say, the Enlightenment still begs the assumption that all forms of spirtuality are choices, but in the post-modern argument you are subject to the culture to which you are a part of. You can argue your borderline scientology views all you want, but in the post-modern world it isn't about right or wrong it's about what you confess to believe in, perfect science (of which there is none), Buddhism, Islam, Zorastrianism, what have you.
Your mass hysteria argument is interesting yet flawed in that you ignore systems theory, how we react in a system has to do with our family dynamics and the concept of anxiety, which you are adhering to isn't so much about amalgamating to one's cultural group as it is systems dynamics and one's self-concept of being whole. You're going a little over the top with your interpretation of mass hysteria at least as how I understand Bartholomew to define it by applying it to the whole of Christianity.
You call it brain-washing, I call it loss of self-identity. You also fail to see that since 332 AD Christianity has been the religion of the powerful, which isn't how God works in the world. And we've been mucking it up ever since.
I am raising my child to be Christian, not so that he will love God, or adhere to the demands of Christianity, but so that he understands that God loves him, and all people wherever they may be, whoever they may be, and that for the sake of you and all people on this flawed and broken existence, he continues to reach out to a world that will not accept the radical grace that we are given. Fundamentalist Christians believe that they dole out this righteousness. I believe that God gives it wherever God chooses, and it's usually in the midst of someone's suffering, someone's doubt and someone's pain.
In my communities, I am the religious leader. And the people that I preach to, don't want to hear the Christ that I am bringing, but they are going to hear it, because that is what I have been called to do.
Last edited: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 at 12:30:23 PM
Apologies to cat for derailing his thread about the existence of aliens in the book of genesis.
I understand the serpent to not be the devil or some other representation of evil but rather as a created being just like adam and eve. The serpent doesn't lie, merely draws attention to the limitations that God has placed on Adam and Eve. Re-read Genesis 3, see what it says. People just don't listen. My favorite part is Adam blaming Eve for eating the fruit. Just like little kids.
Could it have been an alien? Possibly, probably, wouldn't have looked like a serpent though. Although Sigourney Weaver would make a nice Eve in the garden.
Last edited: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 at 12:28:26 PM
@Memphis
Wow I had a really great response to you Memphis but my power went out before I hit submit. Man I had a really nice response with some really good info. Pfft I'll redo it later. I'm tired of typing. Uhg PTT needs autosave!. I'll skip to where I had left off..
Your mass hysteria argument is interesting yet flawed in that you ignore systems theory
I ignore systems theory because I don't see how it applies to God or religion. If you are trying to say that christianity is a system and that it is changing with the times I'd have to say that sounds more like a virus than a system. A system is created with intention of being a system that performs a function.
I have no clue what you mean by "concept of anxiety" or how it applies to the conversation. You are more than welcome to enlighten me though. I'm always looking to learn new things and I'm the first to admit I don't know it all.
And by the way if anything I said makes me sound like a scientologist it is far from the truth. What little I know about scientology though interesting I don't agree with it much.
Last edited: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 at 12:10:30 PM
I just read the comments on satan being a alien, your right he was an alien, he fell from Grace with God because he exalted himself above the creator (God), so yup he was an alien cast outta Heaven, and I read also about Noah gathering up all the animals. Now I knwo there are soem nonbelievers here that do not believe in the Bible or God. But for those that even question the fact that God could exhist, let me pose this question to you. If God made the world, how hard would it be to get animals on a boat?
Well since God didn't make the world that would make the question moot.
And we wonder why this man is president...
So, we have some believers in the big bang, eh?
ALSO: This has turned into a religion scrutinizing thread, can I lock it before more people become offended?
Why should anyone be offended by an opposing opinion?
No, it the serpent wasn't an alien, it was the Devil(Satan/Lucifer) in disguise and, where did you you hear this?
Anything not of earth is an alien,therefore god or gods were aliens,alien isn't a scary or bad thing or is it?
Last edited: Friday, July 22, 2005 at 1:22:54 PM
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The pyramids built by aliens? Lol, I saw the movie alien vrs predator and supposidly it was the predators that tought us how to do that. On the subject of adam and eve, this is not related to this though if adam and eve had babies those people would have to have babies with eachother so sisters and brothers were you know, so they were all related so if that really happened and you believe in adam and eve then that would mean that everyone in the world is blood related to everyone so whenever your doing you know what with someone else your doing you know what with a relative. What you think about that?