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I.m.o. There's a lot you aren't being told. Not just about the WTC either. One of many interesting sites you may want to look at is http://www.loosechange911.com
-Z-
Last edited: Thursday, March 16, 2006 at 10:52:52 PM
Unfortunately I have read a LOT about this and things relating to the U.S government turning into a fascist state...
I think however that instead of finding the symptoms of this...
...look for the cause
To get a fuller understanding of how it relates to goverment policy and corporate money-interests you should read all the "see also" links. A good introduction to the philosophies behind it
That vid z linked to is compelling. There are a few floating around like that. Does anyone remember that clip, called something like brian's world? A graphic designerly piece about war corporatism. Compelling stuff. Luckily, I think the american public has had its fill of this crusading business.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/03/17.html#a7557
zzz.
Last edited: Friday, March 17, 2006 at 9:45:22 AM
?
That lead off post reeks of conspiracy theory. A bunch of supposed "facts" of physical properties, followed by supposed deviations from these phyical properties in the particular case of the WTC...and then the article leads you to draw a most ominous conclusion: that someone most powerful must have been behind the event, for how else can you explain the inconsistencies?
Sorry, but that seems like first rate BS. I believe their are probably heaps of errors in their propositions.
The effect of such flabby conspiracy is that it weakens authentic critique by association.
No quarter for BS conspiracy.
As much as I don't believe all of these conspiracies about the government and its involvement in 9/11, I must confess that there is a whole lot of TRUTH and FACTS involved. Plus, the way these germs of truth are edited together sure paints a realistic and believable prognosis. However, it is still just a conspiracy theory...much like the whole JFK assassanition theory and grassy knole hoopla. The same with the Da Vanci Code crapola that has captivated the country. Yes, there is a lot of truth and fact sprinkled throughout the story, but that does not mean it is TRUE or REAL.
I will continue to view the rest of the "evidence" and keep my mind open, but I am also keeping both eyes open. I highly suggest the same for everyone else.
Thanks for sharing this information Soulless, z and Ho. Very interesting stuff no matter what the end result is.
Thanks too for ripping open an old wound that I thought was healed forever. I still remember the haunting images of people leaping to their deaths from the top of the towers and the chilling sounds of bodies thumping and crashing on the ground.
:(
After watching the segment in this video on the whole Pentagon attack (and reading about it) I am convinced that it wasn't a plane that crashed into the building there. But what does it mean? No way our government would kill citizens on purpose.
Quote:
In part I of No Arabs on Flight 77, I presented evidence from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), that there were no Arabs on American Airlines Flight 77. This doesn?t really jibe with the official story, so someone isn?t telling the truth. This list itself is suspect because there is a special group of ?bone guys? That are called in whenever the government needs an ?adjustment? To their story.
About "bone guys": No, we're not talking folks that hang around secret Ivy League fraternaties. On May 31, 2002, the Washington Post had this to say about 'bone guys':
"...When remains of the Waco dead or 9/11 Pentagon victims or Desert Storm casualties -- or most recently Chandra Levy -- need to be studied, the bone guys at the Smithsonian are called in. The bone guys read skeletons like intricate topological maps. Sometimes they can make identification from a skull fragment the size of a quarter. They can read race in the teeth and gender in the brow. They can tell you who had an asymmetric nose.
They can tell you who may have been a factory worker, because bones grow more pronounced to accommodate certain muscles, and who may have been a weaver or a tailor, based on grooves in the teeth where thread was held...."
In other words, these were the fellows who helped tidy up the government?s story at Waco and are ?studying? The Sept 11th remains as well.
By now you have probably heard that many of the ?hijackers? Named by the FBI are alive and well. The Information Times, an on-line publication, reported that Saudi Arabia's Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal told the Arabic Press after meeting with President George W. Bush on Sept. 20: "It was proved that five of the names included in the FBI list had nothing to do with what happened."
According to The Orlando Sentinel, the Saudi Arabian embassy confirmed that four of the five mentioned by Al-Faisal -Saeed Alghamdi, Mohand Alshehri, Abdul aziz Alo mari and Salem Alhazmi-are not dead and had nothing to do with the heinous terror attacks in New York and Washington. (source: Christopher J. Petherick - American Free Press)
From photos of all of those that perished on that flight, it is clear that none are even "Arab looking" This seems to rule out Arabs sneaking aboard under assumed names.
If you are familiar with Operation Northwoods (see Body of Secrets by James Bamford or thumbnail description here) then you know that the National Security Agency (NSA) has both the will and ability to orchestrate an ?operation? Such as Sept 11th if they decided it was for the ?greater good.? Not saying that they choose to conduct September 11 attack, but they clearly have the ability. According to Bamford, "Operation Northwoods" was not planned by any ?rogue element? But proposed by General Lemnitzer, himself, and then thankfully spiked by President Kennedy. Think also of FDR?s foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor as exposed by Robert Stinnett in his book Day of Deceit. Stinnett actually agrees with FDR?s decision to allow it to happen.
Brush up on the Luisitania hoax, the USS Liberty cover-up, the Gulf of Tonkin fiction, and the Gulf War I falsified satellite photos, etc. If you are not convinced that government officials are capable of stretching the truth (for our own good, of course).
It is very hard to keep a secret of this gravity. One possible way to cut down chatter is to eliminate as many witnesses as possible, preferably during the crime itself.
Critics of ?conspiracy theorists? Have tried to nullify talk of remote controlled planes as being the talk of lunatics. Global Hawk (Raytheon) is a large military aircraft that has flown 7000 miles without a pilot as discussed in this Air Force public affairs article, and is being widely used in the current Iraq war.
Some more to read yipee lol.
@ Paisano -
That kinda reminds me of kotor, when that machine asks you to answer questions to make sure your evil enough to be the dark lord and one of the questions are:
"your country has grown stale and your people are becoming dissatisfied with your leadership. You acquire information that there is going to be an attack on your country and you have the power to stop it, what do you do?
A) stop the attack
B) let the attack happen "
If you let the attack happen many will die, but you will then be able to unite your people against a common foe. They will be too busy with war and revenge to remember the problems they had before. If you were to stop the attack before it happend no one would know of the danger that they avoided and would continue to become more dissatisfied and the country would further stagnate.
No way our government would kill citizens on purpose.
You really sure about that... Even if the governments deem it to be 'for the greater good'?
We need to blow up bush hes on crack/cocain/majurana/meth/rock/pot/herion cause he sends soldiers into irak 4 no reason wait there is a reason he wants our soldies to die he is MENTAL retard. Hes a "donkey"=jacka$$ sorry bout the langege.
In my opinion, if someone is going to call someone else a retard, he should be able to spell first.
Its says that its a "retard" if u spell it worong
Good work ufo,
Im liking the reasoned arguments your putting forward there... You should write a book!
Good point I should but I wont cause there boring and a waste of my time and + I got TT. But ty 4 advice.
the only thing bush is guilty of is letting bin laden
and his crew carry out thier plan.
He cant say he didnt know...
Peace
Actually, from many of the sources which have interviewed bin laden, many report of him not knowing much about the western world. And that he has no grievances with how its run. The source of his frustrations is that he considers saudi arabia and many of the surrounding countries part of an american colony, which is why he is calling for war on the west, he is only involved in middle eastern politics. It is reported to be very unlikely that he had anything to do with the 9/11 tragedy, and it would not further his aims at all. Therefore I believe it unlikely that he has anything to do with this tragedy and instead his (quotationmarks) jihad (closequotationmarks) is being propagandised by the press for the interests in furthering little bushes imperialist war in iraq.
Last edited: Sunday, March 19, 2006 at 1:40:12 PM
Well I say get a new 1.that is wack
Bloop,
Thats called disinformation.
I am sure bin laden at the time
had his reasons for saying that
if he did at all...
But u believe what u want.
Peace
Vash... Would you like to back up your thoughts at all?
...would you like to give me sources for this "disinformation"?
As for the bin Laden network, they have as little concern for globalisation and cultural hegemony as they do for the poor and oppressed people of the middle east who they have been severely harming for years. They tell us what their concerns are loud and clear: they are fighting a holy war against the corrupt, repressive, and "unislamist" regimes of the region, and their supporters, just as they fought a Holy war against the russians in the 1980s (and are now doing in Chechnya, western China, Egypt - in this case since 1981, when they assassinated Sadat - and elsewhere).
Bin laden himself has probably never even heard of "globalisation." Those who have interviewed him in depth, like Robert Fisk, report that he knows virtually nothing of the world and doesnt care to. We can choose to ignore all the facts and wallow in self-indulgent fantasies if we like, but at considerable risk to ourselves, among others. Among other things, we can also ignore, if we choose, the roots of the "afghanis" such as bin Laden and his associates, also not a secret.
- Noam Chomsky, from the book "911"
And an article by Robert Fisk on his interviews with bin Laden (as alluded to in the passage above)
http://www.robert-fisk.com/fisk_talks_with_usama_bin_ladin.htm
Im not going to insult your intelligence by quoting the parts of most importance in it.
Last edited: Monday, March 20, 2006 at 11:47:51 AM
Bloopy,
Yes I am sure, bin laden is going to tell
Robert fisk all of his dark secrets... (ya right)
All that I am saying is bin laden also knows
how to mislead people.
There are no sources I know of for common
sense...
I know there are independent cells from Al Qaeda
but, like the leader of the USA he will take the
blunt of the responesibility of the attacks and the
evil doings of his party of evil doers.
If he is not connected for planning 9/11 then he is still
guilty for funding it. (in some way)
Peace
Vash? How can you possible say that thinking bin Laden IS a major world threat, with no sources or political understanding is "common sense"?
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
Where exactly did you hear about bin Laden? Could it be from George Bush & co.? Do you think its "common sense" to believe someone who has uniformly lied, denied rights, oppressed those who he does not agree with?
Have you ever thought that, without knowing the facts it could be YOU who is subject to the disinformation?
It seems to me that I am backing up my arguments with well documented evidence from reputable sources which you seem to have not even looked at...
Im not going to insult your intelligence by quoting the parts of most importance...
...well you know what? Maybe I should have!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im becoming curious, who exactly do you believe bin Laden is? Do you believe he is some Devil-monster whose soul purpose in life is to kill new-yorkers? Does it fit conveniently in with your beliefs that he is the evil terrorist who has attacked thousands of innocent civilians and needs his country invaded and all those in power strung up and tortured in the name of freedom and justice?
Do you know that 30 american troops died in iraq yesterday? Bringing the total to around 2500 ARMED soldiers dead? Yet the death toll for Iraqi UNARMED civilians is between 33000 and 37000...
Do you think thats "Liberation"? Do you think bin Laden is still the worlds biggest terrorist?
Last edited: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 at 2:33:27 AM
Bloopy doopy,
Your starting to get off track here.
My beef is not with bin laden here...
.(pls check my initial post)
It is against Bushy. Whether bin laden
is guilty of anything, BUSH is still guilty for
letting it happen on U.S. Soil.
I understand your point though. U.S. Do
create monsters, but that is old news, infact
from this iraq war alone may spwan 100
more bin ladens.
And pls dont quote great minds it does not
validate your mind or thoughts.
Btw I thought bin laden was from saudi arabia
is that a fact still???
Peace
Thats because Saudi Arabia is more likely to nuke.
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Bloopy noopy,
Let me save u some time from reading my initial post.
In fact let me simplify my initial post.
The only thing BUSH is guilty of is HIGH TREASON...
Peace
Last edited: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 at 12:16:57 PM
No vashy bashy, you said
Thats called disinformation.
Which is what MY beefs about
You stated this as if it WAS fact. Yet you give no reasons to doubt it, even when confronted with links and interviews demonstrating the reasons why I think what I think... And when I asked you to clarify you just gave a vague non-answer and then start taking offense when I show you that MY stance on the issue is actually well documented by many learned scholars giving quotes and 'said' links.
As you said before... "Peace"
Last edited: Thursday, March 23, 2006 at 3:55:29 AM
Bloopy, bloopy, bloopy,
so u are refering to my response
to your response from my initial
post? ( decipherable )
Not unless that response was in
general. (which could be possible u did not address to anyone)
Either way your BEEF was just my opinion based
on information we both may agree on.
-he helped with the formation of Jihad Service Bureau
The Bureau was very active in terms of media, and publications.
-In 1986 bin laden decided to have his own camps inside
Afghanistan and within two years he built more than six camps.
(this was during the Soviet invasion)
-he has the resource to carry out his
threats against the U.S.
He is calling for war on the west
-as a experiance military leader he knows the value
of propaganda
Which leads to my comment of your BEEF.
Actually, from many of the sources which have interviewed bin laden
Here in the USA we call that hearsay.
Bottom line is bin laden is at war and he is not going
to show all his cards to a reporter.
Peace
P.s. Pls dont play the victim card I am not trying to
condescen I am just FRANK.
Last edited: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 at 11:23:12 PM
Can I just start with a quote from the respected intellectual: Noam Chomsky
You will find, first of all, that the level of evidence that's required is far higher. You don't need verification when you go to vested interests, they're self verifying. Like, if you report an attrocity carried out by guerrilas, all you need is one HEARSAY witness. You talk about torture carried out by an American military officer, you're going to need videotapes. And the same is true on every issue. I mean, if a journalist quotes an unnamed "high U.S. Government official," that suffices as evidence. What if they were to quote some dissident, or from some official from a foreign governmant that's an enemy? Well, they'd have to start digging, and backing it up, and the reporter would have to have mountains of evidence, and expect to pick up a ton of flack, and maybe lose their job, and so on. With factors of that kind, it's very predictable which way they're going to go. And reporters generally pick the easiest way; I mean, the laziness is phenomenal.
Noam Chomsky - Understanding power
From what I have read and seen, ALL the evidence points to the fact that it was NOT bin laden... And I have as yet seen no evidence to say it IS. Apart from the fact that the U.S government have "secret documents" to say so... Now what does that tell you?
Now from what your points have been I agree that...
1)"he helped with the formation of Jihad Service Bureau
The Bureau was very active in terms of media, and publications."
2)"In 1986 bin laden decided to have his own camps inside
Afghanistan and within two years he built more than six camps.
(this was during the Soviet invasion)" - although I believe you forgot to mention that it was the U.S government who armed and trained them as "freedom fighters" yet now that the governments 'vested interests' have changed they are "terrorists".
Point I DO NOT agree on...
1)"as a experiance military leader he knows the value
of propaganda" - he is NOT, I repeat NOT a "military leader", a military leader is someone who has access to a military... He is a guerrilla fighter, yes! Do you think he has access to the cantankerous war machines that the U.S MILITARY has? He does however know the value of propaganda, but in saying this, im curious to whether you acknowledge that YOU are also a victim of propaganda?
2)"he has the resource to carry out his
threats against the U.S." - he does have the resources to carry out HIS THREATS against the U.S by bombing embassies in the middle east and the like. His threats however do not include bombings IN the U.S, and I find it highly dubious and unlikely that he could have (even if he had wanted to) hijacked planes and flew them into the WTC.
Do you really think that pilots who had only trained for a few weeks could fly a boeing into a building at 500 miles an hour? That takes years of training in top military schools to achieve that sort of accuracy...
Bloopster,
From what I have read and seen, ALL the evidence points to the fact that it was NOT bin laden... And I have as yet seen no evidence to say it IS. Apart from the fact that the U.S government have "secret documents" to say so... Now what does that tell you?
My answer to ^ has been already stated somewhere in my posts above.
(hint were they interview facts?)
Again just because there is no paper trail to bin laden does not mean
he had nothing to do with it.
He is a military leader. Anyone that has troops under thier command is
in fact a leader.(even if its just a fire team in flip flops)
"He is a guerrilla fighter"
(guerrilla fighting is a military tactic mainly used by US special forces)
I didnt forget to mention that the USA trained them I just assume that
is common knowledge by now, and by stating that, you may agree
that it was the special forces who trained them, and if so, they are master
of guerrila warfare and psychological warfare.
He does however know the value of propaganda, but in saying this, im curious to whether you acknowledge that YOU are also a victim of propaganda?
So just because you agree that bin laden know the value of propaganda I have
to admit I am a victim of it? ( wow I didnt know this was give and take hour)
LOL...
Ok I will play along, yes I maybe a victim to some propaganda but we all are
at some point. (yes that means you too)
I listen to all the B.S. That spew out of various media, but I wait for actions that
lead to truth before I believe it.
Do you really think that pilots who had only trained for a few weeks could fly a boeing into a building at 500 miles an hour? That takes years of training in top military schools to achieve that sort of accuracy...
Yes it happens all the time at air shows in only hours.
of course there is a trained pilot with you in flight but
for an instant have control of a jet.
I think you are thinking of another military school.
the US air force dont train pilots how to crash a plane.
and if the did they probably wouldnt have any pilots to
train.
Pre 9/11 bin laden had access to most of his money
also airport security was a joke.
Quite possible for them to hijack a plane...
I understand that the government can and do plant evidence
for its benefit, but it does not exclued bin laden from planning
and mislead also.
For all the crap the US has done to him, bin laden has all the
motive to strike back...
Peace
Last edited: Thursday, March 23, 2006 at 12:06:09 PM
Hi all, I´ve found something interesting on 9-11, look here and order your free copy. This documentary will blow your mind. Some very disturbing stuff.
Blackfoot
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Two things to see here..
Interesting article, I have yet to read the book, but this caught my eye.
-"Quote:
9/11, Is the government covering up something?
Author Searches for Truth on Trade Center Collapse by Victor Thorn
What if you discovered that the government?s ?official? Explanation for the World Trade Center collapse on the morning of 9-11 was not exactly true? In addition, what if their ?official? Version of events could be disproven solely on the basis of physics, mathematical equations, scientific formulas, physical evidence, and expert testimony ? Without the use of a single ?conspiracy theory?? Would your perspective on 9-11 be dramatically altered?
This is precisely what is illustrated in 9-11 on Trial, a book that shreds the government?s official story ? And credibility ? Beyond repair. Did you know, for instance, that never before in the history of the world has a steel building collapsed due to fire? Yet on 9-11, three of them did just that in seven hours ? With WTC 7 not even being hit by an airliner.
Furthermore, it takes a temperature of 2,795 degrees to melt construction grade steel, yet the highest temperature jet fuel can reach is 1,517 degrees. Plus, all the jet fuel burned off within two minutes of the towers being struck, while two independent studies proved that the fires within each tower never rose above 500-600 degrees. In fact, FEMA revealed in their final report that, ?The heat produced by burning jet fuel does not by itself appear to have been sufficient to initiate the structural collapse.?
Also, the WTC towers were designed to withstand the impact from a Boeing 707 (similar to a Boeing 767), and each floor was designed to hold 2,600,000 pounds beyond its own weight. Likewise, the steel used in these structures was rated to hold five-times its normal load. MIT professor Thomas Eager admitted as much when declaring, ?The impact of the airplanes would have been insignificant? In toppling the towers.
Also, how do we explain the pools of molten steel which were found bubbling 70 feet beneath the towers five weeks after 9-11? Incidentally, a temperature of 5,182 degrees is needed to transform steel into a liquefied state. Do you think fires that FEMA admitted ?would have burned at, or below, temperatures typical in office fires? Could have produced such extremes? Even NYFD audiotapes of firefighters who reached the South tower?s impact point reveal that they ?judged the blazes to be manageable? And were easily extinguishable in less than an hour.
Even more interesting is the South Tower. Even though it experienced a less forceful hit than the North Tower and had smaller fires, it fell in only half the time of its counterpart (56 minutes). It takes five-times that long to cook a turkey! Plus, the South Tower?s cap, which initially tipped 23 degrees past vertical, suddenly reversed direction, then dropped vertically, defying Newton?s First Law of Motion.
Most incriminating, though, is the resistance-free speed (a mere 10 seconds) at which the towers collapsed. To put this matter into perspective, if you were standing atop the WTC towers, and at the precise moment when they began to fall you dropped a football over the side, you and the football would have hit the ground at nearly the exact same moment. In other words, 200,000 tons of steel, 425,000 cubic yards of concrete, and all the walls, desks and floors provided no resistance whatsoever. Not only does such a collapse defy Galileo?s Law of Falling Bodies, it is physically impossible unless all resistance was removed via a controlled demolition.
Of course there?s more (seismographic data, the ridiculous pancake & truss-bolt theories, and the complete vaporization of nearly all the concrete into a fine microscopic dust), but I?ll close with this question: considering that 9-11 was the most traumatic event of the 21st century, if there was even a one-percent chance that the government?s official story was false, shouldn?t we do everything humanly possible to discover what the truth ultimately is? Because, if the search for truth and justice doesn?t matter to us in regard to 9-11, what does?"-
So what do you think? Is something not being told?
And the other is a video...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7772696530684663669
I found these at another forum and thought this would stir a conversation lol. Btw, I'll put more later.
BTW, what are the quote code for here, its different from the ones I usally use at other forums.
Last edited: Thursday, March 16, 2006 at 10:43:41 PM