...makes me angry.

Big Brother goverment is watching and taking care of you.

I know its to save lives...but...I really think its so insurance companies don't have to pay so much and the auto makers don't mind since they hope not to get sued as much and since there's not a big corporate lobby opposing the measure...it passes.

Why not the same ban on alcohol and smoking? Surely just as many people die from diseases and circumstances resulting from the usage of those products. But wait! The states make cash on alcohol sales! Tobacco companies would fight against legislation aimed at banning their products! Big business beer companies would cry out! So those things are allowed because the legal battles would be enormous and we DO need to keep the peasants happy, drunk and buzzed.

So don't think its about you. Once again its about businesses doing what's best for them. Don't consider your liberties and freedom of choice (even if it IS stupid not to wear a seatbelt). Sure, its OK, cause its a good idea. But take this one and just wait for the next one that's a little more instrusive in determining what's best for you.

Grape or cherry?

"Click it, or we pay for it."

Right?

Rabban,Rabban,Rabban... Chill... It's just because there are parents who would not fasten there children in and young adults who are still in the stupid age wouldn't use them either.. So we all have to be included in so it can be forced on those who know no better.. This is a small issue in the political forums. My god boy you can't drink till your 21 talk about capitalism.. Lol hate to admit it but there is a few who ruin it for most..not that you don't know all this but ohwell.. By the way donate a few dollors to some charity that takes action on these kind of issues. Get involved sense you like to voice your opinion in a game forum on a political issue, risky as someone may go on and on about nothing.. Um, so I'm gone.and please close any political forums so I don't start hanging out in them

LOL we have signs up all over the place that say "click it or ticket" They are everywhere!

As we can see, Samantha has abdicated personal reponsibility.

Whats so bad about tickets? I still use them to go to the theatre...

*Gets pulled over*
Me:Uhh...Is there a problem officer?
Police Officer: Yes you went over 80 miles an hour in a 60 mph zone.
Me:Alright a ticket to see SPEED!!!!!
*dances*

Guys don't be lazy just put your seatbelt on whats the trouble of just pulling it over and putting it in the slot?

The problem with this is that it interferes with natural selection. Do we really want people too dense to use their seat belt voting? ;)

Hmm. I can't help but see the irony here.

Me neither, why should we be messing with Darwin? Remove the ad for the good of our species, and buh-bye, people dumb enough not to click it!
Same with DWI ads. People who drive drunk should count towards natural selection.

Well I'll tell you what. I prefer to have the choice,, who the heck is anyone to tell me to were a seatbelt. It's my life, as long as my passengers are belted I should not have to wear it. But do you know why the law is inforcing it. $$$$$$ Damm insurance companies.(hospital bills) It's the same as the way the game commission in Pennsylvania is slaughtering the deer herd. The $$$$ damage done to cars equils alot of money. The law in Penna Just changed and we don't need to wear helmets on mororcycles. Enforce seatbelts and renounce the helmet law.??. Whats wrong here.

Thats just the way I see it..
And let us have our guns.

P.S
Give an inch,, they'll take a mile.

Last edited: Friday, May 27, 2005 at 11:45:35 AM

Its either that or pay more in taxes...

I was in an accident about 20 years ago & was thrown from the car I was a passenger in. The car ended up upside down in a ditch with the whole roof crushed down into the back seats. If I wasn't thrown from the car, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this. It might of been a freak case where if I had on my seatbelts it would of killed me, but it should be a choice. If I had my seatbelts on & died, could the state be sued or blamed because it was a law I had to wear seatbelts.....NOPE....there should be a choice! Live free or die :S

@OM...I've been waiting for you. ;)

Personally, I hate anyone telling me what to do, however as a former firefighter having to work at car wrecks, you not hooking your seatbelt like a responsible person is deadly and just wrong. It takes police, nurses, doctors, fellow firefighters, etc a lot of time to pull you from that mess just to get you to the hospial. Why? Because you are lazy and can't hook your belt? While moe's case is amazing it IS rare. Please don't think by being thrown from a car you're going to be any safer then by hooking your seat belt.

I have an idea, why don't we stop putting safeties on guns or maybe remove fuse boxes in houses? Would that be better? I can hear it now... "why should the government tell me what sort of safety precautions I should put in my house. Screw them! I'm removing my breakers...".

In a society, otherwise known as a community, you have to look out for each other.

Wear your seatbelt.

Sil

Last edited: Friday, May 27, 2005 at 4:51:08 PM

"any man willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserves neither"

-Thomas Jefferson

I got a speeding ticket on my bike once when I was 10 years old..... Dang looking back at that. Going 43 in a 25 mph zone... Sad

^down hill of course

@ sil

Good point but the point is, our freedom to choose for ourselves. If im on a long road trip I will use my belt. The choice of using it is simple, and it should always remain a choice. The way they should be handling it is by simply promoting.Not tring to pressure us with there little fine.

When I pass a checkpoint im sure to tell them I aways wear my belt for these checkpoints. ( Lmao )

Let Freedom Ring

Last edited: Saturday, May 28, 2005 at 4:50:34 AM

Heh. Y'know Rabban. I like you. I really believe you're a good person with good intentions. And I hope you don't take too much offense in what I'm about to say. But, can you see the irony in your post?
You lament the loss of your freedom to choose something as basic as whether to wear your seatbelt or not. You lament that big corporations and big money is getting what they want to make their lives easier at the expense of your freedom. Well, no offense, but exactly what type of politicians do you think you voted in last November? Are these people whose primary concern is with your individual freedom, or is it with big corporations and insurance companies? Answer me that. I think you know the answer. You should know the answer, considering people like Stinky, Tally, 44, myself and many others had been beating you and others like you over the heads with it for months, warning you of the consequences of your choices in politicians.
So, all that time we tried to warn of the potential fallout of putting people like Bush in office, who does NOT CARE for your individual freedom, only for promoting whatever his buddies and backers in big business are looking to do, fell on deaf ears. But now that it's coming around to affect you, you suddenly get it?

My answer to this is, nut up and live with your choices. It certainly wasn't my choice, or the choice of almost half the country. But maybe this is the only way people will get it through their heads. And I think you're correct. This is NOT where it will end. Get ready for more constrictions on what you are allowed to do, because there will be more. Anything this government can get away with and pass, they will, as long as it fits in with their hidden agenda.

You reap what you sow.

^amen

...And the ultra-liberal democrats don't have a hidden agenda????

Hey guys, I also appreciate the irony in this thread, but how did we get from seatbelts to where we are now?

The facts are pretty clear on car wrecks and survivability for those wearing/not wearing safety belts. I grew up not wearing them. As a kid I remember driving from NY to Maine and jumping back and forth over the seats in the family station wagon. Nobody thought about it.

I also remember when a car full of kids from my neighborhood was in a high speed pursuit and rolled in a golf course. All 7 kids died. 3 or 4 were ejected and died because of the impact of hitting the ground at 70+ mph after being tossed around in the car as it rolled over and over and over. The oldest was 18, the youngest was 14 or 15. (Yes, alcohol was involved...)

Cars are dangerous. These laws do save lives, and money. Your insurance rates would be higher without the belt laws. Safety improvements in cars have saved many many lives. Yes, government is intruding into your choice. In this case, I see it as money saving, and life saving. I also suspect that it has more to do with money than the latter.

Sil, I have also been at crash scenes, and seen people die in crashes. They didn't wear their belts, and we couldn't always tell who was even driving because they were flung around so much. One crash I can't forget was a head on between a Ford pickup and a Mercury Capri (70's vintage). It was caused by the pickups driver having a brain aneurism. 4 died in that one. I still can't lose the images.

This isn't a case of making a personal decision that doesn't effect anyone else. There are heavy societal costs, and the belt laws have helped. I see it as a parallel argument with drunk driving. We aren't in favor of that being a personal decison, are we? The same effects are involved, but for different reasons.

CLICK

Last edited: Saturday, May 28, 2005 at 9:01:21 PM

Actually it's not an individual choice at all. If you were granted a drivers license you were apparently reasonably sober enough to understand the rules of the road. If you're dumb enough to want to fight the law at least you should be smart enough to do what the professionals do. How many Indy or NASCAR drivers would ever not wear a safety belt. Buckle up, maybe your pants won't fall down.

Lol^

"Lol"? Is that all someone can post on a thread about a potentially life-threatening issue? If there's a one-liner applicable to something this serious, it's DEFINITELY not "Lol". I still hold my view on natural selection. It weeds out those dumb enough not to buckle up, so that in later generations, there won't be 2 billion seatbelt misusers.

Yeah.. Its outa control here in maryland... Everyday... (that its not raining) there is a cop standing in the middle of main street on my way to work pulling over people without seatbelts on... Ther just walk right out into the middle of the road and start writing a ticket... Thanks for the traffic jam.. Ya know?

Well, that could be prevented by putting on the seat belts. Then smokey wouldn't have anyone to ticket.

As far as the natural selection argument goes, I really don't mind that if I don't have to pay for it. The people who crash and get injured expect emergency response, though, and WE ALL PAY TO KEEP THEM ALIVE.

If you are going to make a natural selection argument on this, then I suppose we should only treat crash victims who put on the belts before they crash. No belt, no help. That's what natural selection would look like. Of course we won't do that.

Since I (and you too) have to pay for all the emergency calls, medical bills, long term care, and other heroic efforts made to save lives, it makes sense to require reasonable safety equipment be used.

@ All

Do with you own life what you will. All that should be required is that you keep you're passengers safe. Thats it,,, no butts.

Right on bro. And if you're a christen fundamentalist and or Republican have your mechanic replace the airbag with a bible and let that puppy hit you in the head at 250 MPH. It'll knock the rest of your sense right out of you.

(How you like the way I can turn seat-belts wearing into a political/religious discussion Rabby :)

Last edited: Sunday, May 29, 2005 at 12:46:15 PM

War, ur taking this all the wrong way.

@ LGM
If you want to wear you're belt do it.. But don't tell me to,, ya might as well be one of those jehova witness people tring to shove there religion down my throat. If you read my above posts you find (when needed) I wear my belt. On my 25 mph sidestreet where the local police write tickets to fill there quota , I think not. All I can say is ill wear my belt when I think its necessary or until I pass through the checkpoint.

Last edited: Monday, May 30, 2005 at 1:36:12 PM

Isn't this the right wing government Rabban voted for?

@ CB- I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just putting out facts, and my humble opinion. I'm not conceited enough to believe that I can tell people what to do. You'll make your own decisions, and live with the consequences.

Yup Hes the Picture of Georgias Click it or Ticket lol
Rather Small though

@All my liberal friends...and others.

I will admit I went a little overboard in my stink-esque rant concerning big business and the loss of personal freedom, but it does reflect how I see the situation.

However, I think I need to clarify something. In November 2004, I had to make a choice between two political agendas. I didn't feel like I had a lot to choose from. Still, I had to go with what I felt was best. I felt I had to make a choice between values and the economy. Proverbs 28:6 reads "Better is a poor man who walks in his integrity than a rich man who is crooked in his ways.". Now I'm not trying to apply that idea to Bush and Co., but to myself. Its better for me to vote for the party I feel is going to represent my values rather than my economic interests. Some may not understand that and that's fine. I'd rather not have to make the choice since I'd like to have some cash in my pocket, but since I felt I had to chose, that's what I did.

But there's another thing I hope you can recognize. Ole Rabban is a changin'. I am not the same person I was 8 months ago (and I hope the same is true for you). The arguments and discussions presented here in the forums are not falling on deaf ears and an unreasoning mind. Some of you may have noticed the last links and ideas I presented concerning SSI. Stinky saw it and it was good. So I'm growing, changing, developing in several ways. Some you're gonna like and some you're not, but I don't think a reprimand is really the way to go.

@Cloud,

So did I. :)

Rabban (Fellow FAT),

I live in a provincethat adopted seat belt laws many years ago.. I don't really see it as a freedom issue. Remember driving is NOT a right but a priviledge and I think many people forget this.. Seat belts save lives.. It has been proven over and over.... We enact many laws to protect us.... Is that removing freedom or offering society reasonable protection.. I see it as the latter.. I am old enough to remember not having to wear my seatbelt as well...... You only have to see the horrific accidents as mentioned in this thread of people who would be alive today if they had their belts on.... Not to mention the huge drain on the health care system....

^ now see, you bring up an interesting point. Driving is a priviledge. Is it? My freedom of movement is a priviledge or just using my car to do so? Its a priviledge that I drive on the roads my tax dollars help build and maintain? Those are my roads aren't they? I really shouldn't need "papers" to travel, but I do (license, insurance & registration).

I'd say travel in a right. In fact, I Googled it and found this.

So I would think a reasonable lawyer could make the argument that in today's society that travel by any personal conveyance is a right.

And as I mentioned in my opening, if it IS about public health, then tobacco, alcohol & fatty foods need to be outlawed as well. My argument is that it is about public health, but in the interests of business, not the people. The reason the seat belt law passed is because there's no corporate entity opposed to the measure. Try banning beer, smokes and corn chips and watch the corporations stand up for American's rights! ;)

Rabban,

In Canada we are already working on banning smoking.. Its illegal to smoke in work places, bars, and almost any enclosed space (Course these are regional laws that are sweeping the land).. But it still stands DRIVING is a priviledge not a right.. Travel by walking is allowed freely.. Well almost.. We even have laws restricting that..

Just saying driving is a priviledge again doesn't means it "stands". Perhaps it is a priviledge in Canada, but I think its a right in America. With that said, I think its a regulated right, similar to the right to keep and bear arms. That's why in both cases you need a license to operate a certain device that comes after a bit of training. And as I said, walking in the US isn't practical to really get anywhere so that's why any conveyance would be considered part of the right to travel.

And this little snippet provided by Chief provides a little ammo for my side concerning seatbelts.

Basically its a "careless" tax (in addition to saving the govt and busn money).

I live in NH & love that statistic..there is also no helmet law :P :P
LIVE FREE OR DIE

^ My hero

I'll spare the gory stories that I see at work (Trauma Center ER) on a near daily basis.
The fact is it isnt a mere "personal right" or choice to wear a seat belt.
Just as it isnt a "right" to be able to drink alcohol to excess and drive.
These "choices" impact other people.
They impact them in many dangerous and expensive ways.
The dangers of drinking and driving I think are well documented. The list of innocents who have died or have been maimed, the untold horror visited upon their families and loved ones as a result of drunken drivers.
Lets face it - fuzzy brains and hurtling metal objects are not a good combination.
MOES miraculous tale notwithstanding, seat belts save lives.
I see the proof weekly.
Every time someone who "chooses" not to put their or their kids seat belts on and they go flying through the windshield, bounce off another car and skid to a stop on the pavement requires us in the Hospital (yes Silbarcalis, after the firefighters and paramedics scoop them up and drive them code 3 at great danger to themselves) to hover over them trying to resuscitate them, stabilize them, often require dangerous procedures to us, IV needles, scapels, suture needles, intubation, traction, chest tubes on and on. Blood flying all over the place.
Oh then if we save them, off to the Intensive Care Unit, racking up major bills for them, insurance companies, for the public health care system (such as it is). Some one must pay for all this.
Then while a huge trauma team is hovered around this person exercising their right (and their kids right?) to "live free or die", your Uncle is sitting in the lobby with chest pain (perhaps a heart attack that could be treated with minimal longterm injury if treated quickly), your GrandMother is being transported to the ER with a stroke but now must be diverted to a hospital farther away, your kid with leukemia cant get immediate care...
How many must die for someone else to "live free"? How many must suffer needlessly?
While I believe health care should be a right in this society it is rationed.
Rationed by economics, rationed by access.
This is an issue that should transcend ideology.
We will still be there, we will bust our asses to save your life, and your Uncles and your Grandmothers and childs.
But why tie our hands?

This just in:

Today Congress passed a new law and the White House has signaled it's intent to sign it.

As of January 1, 2006, it will be illegal to:

- Use a steak knife.
- Use a mouse without a gel wristrest.
- Go outside during a solar eclipse.
- Use public telephones without cleaning them first.
- Utilize electricity in a household where a child is present.
- Climb anything more than 6 feet tall without a fall bag.
- Walk across the street.
- Go outside in a lightning storm.
- Attend a NASCAR / INDY race.
- Smoke
- Drink alcohol
- Use a lawn mower or weedeater.

Okay - by now I guess y'all have figured out I am bullshi**ing.

BUT - what do all of the items above have in common? An implied risk that comes with the activity. With the exception of the public telephone, each activity I listed above has been proven to include a risk of injury. Some of them involve the risk of death.

An adult driving or riding in a car falls into this category....which I will call "personal responsibility."

I believe the extent of adult responsibility is to there passengers, keep youre passengers safe. Do with your own life what you will. Maybe someday the government will say no to youre old butt for medical attention cause you are just not worth it anymore. Like I said earlier, I were my belt when I need to. I'll make that decision thanks. My passengers are always buckeled as do I insist they wear a helmet on my motorcycle.
Ya know millions of americains quit smoking from ad campaigns showing the stupidity of smoking knowing that it will cause cancer, not from a law banning them. They probably cost just as much medically. Maybe they would be better off with the same approach on seatbelts. I teach my son to always wear a belt but I wish it will can remain a choice as it should.

The more you let someone push you the more they push.

Last edited: Saturday, June 11, 2005 at 5:34:25 AM

Nicely said, Baba. That's a keeper!

For those who want to ride belt-free, maybe there should be a medical treatment option when your face bites the windshield.

Put it on your driver's license, like the organ donor option.

Since I elected not to wear a seat belt, please lay me on the roadside and do no mandatory medical procedures. I want to die as freely as I sat in my car.

Or...since I elected not to wear a seat belt, please treat me like Terry Schiavo and pull life support.

A real interesting dilemna, ain't it?

I agree with Baba though, it is rationed. Someone will always be attempting heroic medical interventions. Or should. My belief is that you use your freedom smart.

After having another driver run a stop sign and slam into the rear driver side, spinning my car completely around and it coming for a landing on its side, which forced me to crawl up and out the passenger side window of the car to get out, I am thankful for the three-inch seat belt burn across the left side of my chest. It happened so fast, I couldn't have reacted if I hadn't been wearing a seat belt...except to bite windshield glass at about 50 mph...

Gawd, I love being sarcastic...

Last edited: Saturday, June 11, 2005 at 6:36:01 AM

@Rabby
...I was gonna give some spiel about your "right to travel" really being a freedom to travel which doesn't preclude walking, biking, air, bus, etc. And then how this equates to wearing a seat beat since they have nothing to do with each other. (BTW, you advocating returning drunk drivers their licenses' because of their right to travel?) Anyway, I'm not.

Let's instead apply your right to not wear seat-bealts (and travel) and those who do not wear them to their kids. Lets make sure they have the right to put the little-ones up front between mom and pop with no restraint. That should hurry along DJwings theory of driving evolution. It's their right, right?

@Rabban
Yes, you have a right to travel . You can walk, jog, ride a bicycle, use a skateboard, inline skates, or pay for a bus, taxi, train, or plane to take you wherever you want to go. If you live on a farm, you can hop on a horse or in a buggy. But, if you want to get behing the wheel of a 1+ ton vehicle (2+ tons for most cars and small trucks) and drive on public roads in close proximity to pedestrians, homes, businesses, and other vehicles, you need to be trained and licensed. You have to earn a license to drive on public roads. A car/truck turns into a dangerous weapon when driven by careless, irresponsible, distracted idiots. Tens of thousands of Americans die every year in car accidents. The vast majority because one or more drivers made careless mistakes or ignored traffic laws. You don't have to cause the wreck to be a part of it or die in it. The best drivers in the world are still vulnerable around careless drivers.

Driving a car is a big responsibilty that almost everyone takes lightly (myself included) and people die everyday because of it. A seatbelt law is an attempt to save people from their own stupidity. Yes, it benefits insurance companies & manufacturers. The insurance companies have fewer and smaller health claims to pay. The manufacturers and their insurance companies are sued less (erased commentary on frivilous lawsuits ).

You know what the fine is if you are caught unbuckled. If you don't want to buckle up, then don't. Your wife can find a new husband to grow old with. Your kids will adjust to a single parent household. Your daughter(s) can get someone else to walk them down the aisle at their wedding. Your parents will get over living longer than their child.

Follow the law or break it....you are free to choose. Just don't teach your kids to make the same bad choices. Give them a chance to live a long life.