Ever notice a different atmosphere in BM vs Scrum?

In scrum, most people start with a greeting when they enter a server (hi, sup, etc)....and provide a closing when leaving the server....(cya, later, etc)

In battlemode if it wasnt for the dialogue u wouldnt ever know who came and went....

In scrum when somebody gets a skillful goal u usually hear "n1, gj, etc"

In BM u dont hear anything unless it is "lucky shot"

In scrum after every non-asshole penetrated game u hear "gg, vgg, etc"

In BM u dont hear anything unless it is "we were outnumbered, etc"

In scrum mostly everyone participates to balance the teams

In BM if it is 1 player and 4 bots vs 5 players then it is "EVEN"

In team scrum when there is good passing, blocking, etc u hear "gjt, nice pass, etc"

In TBM when u protect a smoker on your team and waste their attacker.....nothing

In TS usually the healths are given to the flag carrier or someone in need....

In TBM it is FIRST come FIRST serve....

Same with the powerups....

In TS usually bounceback and area effect are used to not injure your own teammates unless the opponent is about to score

In TBM u get in the way u DIE

My latest pet peeve in TBM is when you are about to kill an opponent and your OWN teammembers shoot u accidentally while trying to get credit for the kill....i dont really care who gets the credit for the kill but PLEASE dont shoot your own team in the process!!! Also people who leave the game right before you kill them are MORONS!!!!

B

So who the hell are you playing with? I thought you were in the league. There are only a few people who play team bm well and know what they're doing. Over the past few days, I've been playing Leopard's Lair and Dash Bash under a variety of names, just playing around, and the number of 6-12 year olds pisses me off. Their startling lack of intelligence... Anyway.

I do have a huge problem with the unevenness in TBM. What, can't some people show a little love and join the team with two instead of jumping on the seven player green team?

Most of the original players (I won't use vet cause I hate that word and everything it suggests about video games) started playing battlemode and eventually moved to scrum. They had "ripening" time to get polite, show courtesy, so on. The huge majority of bmer's are kids who play a bunch of shoot-em-up games, and this is just one more.

Ah scrum,

The game for those who can't shoot straight...... Lol

Leopard :P

@ Bolo,

You make some interesting points, I totally agree with you here especially

BTW I have written my top ten list of things that you will see in a game of TBM Look here

Lauryn^TM

_{Disclaimer:- Yes... That's right girls that is Bolo, ready to serenade you to sleep. Available for a very limited time, pleaser step right up, before he disappears...}

Last edited: Sunday, May 09, 2004 at 6:55:00 PM

@ Bolo

I have seen plenty of misconduct in scrum. Not that I'm a regular, but I have stopped by numerous times and seen the same items you are discussing above.

Great topic. I've been wanting to compare the two vastly different TT games for the longest time.

It reminds me that old George Carlin bit where he compared football to baseball!

http://home.earthlink.net/~sscutchen/baseball/Quotes/baseball_vs_football.htm

@ben

U are correct...the maturity level in scrum is MUCH higher....BM is full of little kiddies...Im sorry people I wasnt talking about the BM league...those are the best games EVER!!!!

@ leapord

I can see your point. Many decent to good scrummers cant hardly shoot....the very top players can shoot AND drive...in fact I believe the very top scrummers can hold their own in ANY game

@ lauryn

Wish all BMers played with the skill and sportsmanship you do...always a pleasure!!

@ prof

YES there are assholes in scrum...of course but there are many more good players (usually)...really if it wasnt for anon (who behaves half the time), dominator (who behaves half the time), jfdny, cleaner, and attacks there would hardly be anyone in scrum that caused any trouble...how many is that? 6??? There are at least 3 morons in every game of TBM these days....i guess most are kiddies....

@ pai

Yea thats funny..i have that cd

B

Hey, What about me? LOL.

@Racer

You are an old soul, kiddo. You're one in a million, trust me.

Wish more youngsters behaved like you (but I am so glad they don't play as well as you do!

It's kind of embarrassing to lose to such a youngie, but you're cool, so it's all right.

I think CADC is very young too and very good.

Maybe Michael too?

*Spunky stands in corner whilst sad violin music plays*

CADC is 16 I think is what he told me, I turned 14 in March.

I turned 13 two days ago...

As I said, Michael is another young stud. And so is Spunky....however, for every one of you prodigies, there are a dozen piss-pants who enjoy btm during scrum and shouting "You suck!"...

Lol, I throw the occasional "You suck!" every once in a while when I get robbed. ;)

Yes Michael, u have some good memory, I am indeed 16 XD

Its good that paisano isn't fooled by the age ;)

Cadc (SA) (Leader)

Careful lauryn! Bolo's got a nasty streak! You probably don't remember the time he mercilessly beat everyone's favorite rodent, Gerbil of Death to a pulp!

I gotta hand to to the gerb though, he kept comin back for more!

@KBC,

ROFL... Thought you might like these KBC The Church of Gerbil or

Satanic Hampsters

Lauryn^TM

@ Leopard:

Oh yah? Wellumyeah, pretty much. :P At least in my case.

@ Bolo: Scrum is a bit slower paced and easy-going than BM until you get near the goal or scrum. If you spawn in BFE, you can afford a funny comment about how you just died. If someone caps you as you type, its no big deal: it doesn't affect your score. It gives a us a chance to converse and make friends, really. In BM, you are NEVER safe! Every death brings pain to your score. Chatting is a death-wish. Not much time for bonding.

The league players seem to follow an honor code on type-killing. Don't see that in regular games.

Interesting mix of players in CTF. That game requires equal amount of Scrumming and BattleMode. Very fast-paced. I like it for the challenge, but the inability to find time to chat makes it feel like something is missing to me.

- BombJames Bomb

I think Battlemode is like Checkers and Scrum is like Chess. Both a lot of fun, but one of them requires a lot more thinking/intelligence in order to be victorious. Both games have over-lapping skill requirements (much like Chess/Checkers): you need to be proficient in shooting and maneuvering your tank and you must know the layout of the land and understand the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition, but the mindset in battlemode is much simpler: KILL or be Killed! Hide...shoot....move...hide...shoot.

As for scrum, you are constantly under fire as in battlemode, but you have the added difficulty of scoping out where the flag is located, where the goal is positioned, where you are on the map, who is between you and your objective of grabbing the flag and scoring all at the same time you have to return fire and maneuver yourself out of the line of fire in order to remain alive! Then you have to determine where the launch and arrow pads are located....as well as the powerups....and determine if there are campers to avoid and where the always present trigger happy opponents are stationed.

Another analogy would be that Scrum is like Jeopardy and Battlemode is like Wheel of Fortune.

Note: Please, battlemode fans, do not take this personally as an insult! I am not saying that battlemoders are not as smart as scrummers!

Shoot, some of the best scrummers are really battlemoders in disguise (Ben, Bolo, etc.)! I am just saying that the game of scrum requires more thinking than battlemode...period. I admit getting some sick thrill out of shooting tanks to pieces on ocassion! I just get a much bigger kick out of scoring a goal because it required a lot more thinking AND skill.

A whole lot of verbiage in this thread. Let me sum it up succinctly:

Battlemode sux and Scrum doesn't.

Now, before you BM "players" get goofy on me, keep in mind that you are quite a bit farther down the evolutionary scale than "those who scrum" so your opinion doesn't really count. :P

Good thing I don't plan on posting this because it could really piss off some people eh TG? Sure would fan the flames....

What a silly game though... Kill... Be killed.... Kill.... Be killed.... Kill.... Hey looky there, I killed Three times but was only killed twice!!! Wooo hoooo!! Good grief. If I was going to actually hit the Submit button on this post, I would probably argue that a comparison is not like checkers vs chess, more like tic-tac-toe vs eXtreme Chess. There is not as much strategy in BM as in checkers, but you do have to be a good shooter (yawn). In Scrum, you have a burden of strategy with every move, in addition to having to be a great shooter, driver, navigator... The best players also have an incredible knack for dissecting angles (even if they are not aware of it) and have a heightened situational awareness.

Funny to think I used to consider BM and Think Tanks were the same thing and that silly "scrum" game was for kids.

If I really did post this and any battlemoders were to read down this far... I would hope they wouldn't be offended... I am just being silly.

Oh well, I guess I will stop rambling to myself and click the Cancel button.

Last edited: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 at 4:33:34 PM

LOL, well TG, it's a good thing you didn't post that. Some BMers might be a bit miffed by your statements.

I do agree that Scrum involves more strategizing for angles, maneuverability, etc. Than Battlemode. But I don't gather you've played in Team Battlemode League games as I have. Though I doubt you'd like them, I've found that it brings a whole new perspective on BTM. MUCH, much more strategy is involved in these matches. Don't judge BM solely on the silly games played on the open servers. In the league, there is a lot of thinking going on. Everything from spawn location mapping, utilizing the terrain, hiding locations, plotting out home bases, strength of teammates, using a heavy tank with light tank "wingmen", "farming" power-ups to get that health for your teammates, picking players with differing qualities, such as long range snipers, close combat experts, and switch hitters, controlling the ammo gate, and much much more.

I still think Scrum is more fun in many ways, because of the constant movement for one, but organized TBM games can be quite thrilling.

@TG

Hilarious stuff. Glad you posted it by mistake! Agree with you, of course.

@OM

You are correct, sir. TBM is far more intellectual than solo or TBM on open servers! However, that's like saying Adam Sandler is a smarter comic than Pauly Shore. Yeah, it might be true, but come on....

Seriously, I've read some interesting posts from serious battlemoders like LC50 and Ben where they admitted to staying up late at night just dreaming up new strategies for their TBM league teams! Until then, I merely thought it was all about finding a rock to hide behind and running like hell when smoking! That's where I learned how to shoot while swerving backwards!

Obviously those of you down on TBM have never thought of using appropriate tactics. You're so used to Scrum tactics that you don't recognize TBM has it's own, different, tactical mindset. In Scrum, you must move straight toward the flag or between it and the goal for maximum effectiveness, getting in front of the carrier is key. In TBM, in front of your opponent is where you get shot - a lot. Behind your opponent is where you want to be. If you're operating using the Scrum tactical mindset, you head straight for your opponent and get shot up. Small wonder you think it's nothing more than who can shoot straighter faster.

Please note - I play both styles. I came up with this theory after noticing how difficult it was sometimes to switch from Scrum to BM or vice-versa. I finally figured out why when I noticed my different play styles for each game.

@Tankgirl,

Well when you crawl out of the primordial slime , ( commonly known as scrum) drop by someday to visit the land of League TBM, we employ tactics , formations, skill sets, firepower rates, lag rates, locations ,ect ect. All are utilized and evaulated as well as the individual skill sets of our opponents. Each game is a week long event and quite thrilling. Unlike playing fetch the ball like Spot or Rover....lol

Your serve

Leopard XD

James hit the nail on the head. It's the pacing. Scrum has a social pace. There are intense moments in scrum, but once the goal is scored, you can relax for a moment and engage in friendly banter.

In battlemode, the only time you can safely chat is when your cam is rotating around your tank, unfortunately my 're-spawn twitch' usually messes that up.

Then there's CTF, which is go go go go go....

I'll explain this in a bit.

1. Strategy versus tactics.

Last edited: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 at 9:06:15 PM

I sense a thesis coming on....

Did someone called me? B)

LOL! Oh, I just love these forums. Pity there is no equal in the RC Aircraft arena.

@TG, I have ventured briefly in the Team BattleMode arenas. Surprisingly, they are actually MORE coordinated than we are in Team Scrum! In TS, one guy gets the flag, his nearby buddies act as wingman to clear his tail, and the other straggler moves to clear the goal. SImple, but probably the most effective tactic. In Team Battlemode, they actually employ different types of tanks (not just light) with assigned offensive and defensive duties. The captain is busy as hell giving directions! (in Team Scrum, you mostly learn to just "do what looks is needed.") I didn't stick around too long since I was pretty much dead-weight, but it was impressive as hell to observe. Kind of wish there was an "observer" mode in TT. It's still not the game for me, but a true "team" battle-moder is a good tanker. Indie Battle-Mode, on the other hand, is for kids who can't handle any rules or orders. Indie Scrum still holds as a good game if there are 7 people or less.

But, I still like the more causual/friendly atmosphere of Team Scrum, and only Team Scrum has those amazing moments like scoring while bouncing across the tops of other tanks, or mid-air steals to goal. Battle-Mode just doesn't have the acrobats.

- BombJames Bomb

I'm curious if the team battlemoders spend more time communicating out of game. Strategizing, congratulating, etc, over email, rather than in game?

Please allow me to be respectfully argumentative: As a player who enjoys all the TTgames and have been in all 3 leagues I would like to present an analogy:

Playing guitar = BM

Playing in a band = TBM

Playing violin = scrum

Playing in an orchestra = TS

BM and the guitar are easy to learn. Hell the first download as a demo we could start to shoot and avoid getting shot...learn 3 chords on the guitar and u are as good as half the top 40 guitarists. It is easy to get a satisfying sound out of the guitar. It is easy to get a satisfying score in BM against bots or amaturs.

However if u want to rival steve vai and john petrucci u need to be the MASTER. BM is the same way. Easy to learn but DIFFICULT to master. There is tons of strategy to BM.

Close encounters....not just straight shooting....anticipation to where the opponent is going to go so u land your bullets and at the same time avoid getting shot....all about angles and hills, etc..

Sniping is as difficult as anything in scrum..it never ceases to amaze me when I see expert bmers poke their head over a hill and release a clip EXACTLY the right time when u poke your head out to shoot and get nailed. Accuracy and timing are very difficult...

For those who are not challenged by BM are not playing the right people. Imagine you are a smoking tank and have leapord and supra on your ass...AU and LC are sniping and quitter and rogue just spawned in front of u....the chances u have of living more than 1 second are about the same chance I have at dating liv tyler......

Easy to learn HARD to master

Scrum and the violin are difficult to learn. Til u learn the tactics of scrum the only thing u will score are FB's and a last second steals. Gets discouraging unless u stick with it. Just like the violin...takes YEARS to get a decent sound out of the thing. Posture, EXACT finger placement, etc....first decent song u play is like 3 years after u start...gotta stick with it to become good. Same with scrum. Just when u think u are decent.... Step into a game with tally ho, hankstatanksta and then u realize u suck ass...(this was me not so very long ago)....hard to learn even HARDER to master

TBM: the team thing is more complicated u have to defend yourself but also protect your smoking teammates....learn to attack from your spawn locations. Etc...much more complicated. Like playing guitar in a band. U have to be able to play AND worry about everyone else...

TS: the ULTIMATE strategy.....know when to kill and when to NOT kill....when to block, steal, camp, BM, pass, recycle, etc.....takes a long time to really understand it. I know only about a dozen or so that really understand TS to its fullest. I learned from the best or I would still be in the dark....like playing in an orchestra...u gotta sound good and also compliment the other sections depending on need...need to solo, accompiany, harmonize, rest, etc....same with TS...lot of hats to change...

CTF is a mix of everything...except it is closer to TBM than TS....gotta love this game

One more thing....scrummers get a lot of benefit from BM. Shooting is on more so u can shoot down the flag carrier and also to run backwards and shoot while smoking...imagine u have the flag, pick a tree and GO!!! See how u do....

Practice in BM for scrum....

If u cant hold your own in BM there is no way u are a top scrummer

BMers: play more scrum and dont get discouraged...stick with it b4 u write it off

Scrummers: play more BM to warm up for scrum....dont write it off

B

@Bolo

Good stuff

@Tally

I can't wait to see this! Come on, man. Post it!

There is indeed more to BM and TBM than I appreciated. I still have one question though. Where is the scrum and the goal? B)

-RX

@Reagent X

Lol... Let's go to the video tape and see if we can find it?

JB touched the tip of the iceberg. Now that I've semi-mastered scrum, I have discovered that (drumroll) there is MORE strategy by FAR in TBM. By FAR. Scrum is frighteningly simple compared to a good team battlemode game. The reason is pretty obvious: scrum has one set objective, and only one way to accomplish. Score goals by taking the flag to the goal. Obviously, there are many ways to do this, but not nearly as many as the myriad ways a dogfight takes place between two superb bmers. Or four. Or ten.

Most people don't have a clue on how to play TBM. I try to play TBM like a basketball point guard, feeding wounded enemy tanks to teammates behind me or to the side. Angles alone in TBM, preserving your front, keeping your sides on Medulla, watching the ridge on Hypothalamus, guarding the gate on Freudian. Keeping track of your weaker teammates and doubling up with them, setting a pad for a wounded tank, timing your volleys so you can catch that heavy between shots. Going back and playing Leopard's Lair and Dash Bash in the past few days has really been interesting. When I can get even one good team player with me, the game is as good as over. Fun stuff.

@Siz

Yes, it's true that there is far more thinking/planning involved with TBM, but TS requires everything TBM requires and much much more.

As Bolo mentioned above, TS involves a tremendous amount of strategy (when to kill, when NOT to kill, where is the goal, where is the flag, what are the strengths and weaknesses of teammates and opposition, the layout of the map, etc. Etc.) So, my original point of scrum being chess and battlemode checkers still stands.

By the way, there are smart checker players with elaborate plans and there are dolts who just play one jump at a time (the demos and noobs who merely shoot anything that moves).

Good topic BTW. I like playing scrum but avoid it. The ever present, "Stop shooting me when I don't have the scrum." drives me nuts. I can see how some folks just kill to ruin the game and that is a problem. In my opinion if you're going in the same direction as me during a scrum match, well, "You're dead." I feel like I can't shoot anybody in order to be cordial. To put it bluntly we BM folk play like ogres, conversely, the scrum folk play like graceful and polite little butterflies. LOL.

Oh yah, how about the cliff diving in scrum? You do this and have a great chance to be right next to the srum or goal. Surprised nobody mentioned that disasterous part of the scrum world. Boy sounds like I hate the game. LOL. I actually like it, but will only play if I am free to kill at will.

I think there is an equal amount of idiocy in each genre. The only thing I can see in scrum that I like is that I hear some of the hosts are able to boot these punks. So if you're listening: Get to work Dash and Lep.

One last thing. Is there any possible way in which we could turn friendly fire off ? That would put a stop to the most annoying problem in TT.

Rogue "The Battlemode Ogre"

Last edited: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 at 11:54:09 PM

@Rogue

Funny stuff and right on. I understand the frustration. It is very tough to go straight from battlemode to scrum because of the drastic change in mentality, especially regarding shooting! Personally, I've grown to not let it bother me anymore if someone starts shooting me when I am not even close to the flag. I try only to shoot the player with the scrum and those chasing them down if they are ahead of me, of course. Quite frankly, it's stupid to shoot the third or fourth player in a line that is chasing the carrier. If the carrier is already smoking and the flag is still a good distance away, I will then start shooting the number one chaser who is next in line to grab the flag.

Regardless of which game we prefer, I think it's great that TT has so many different types of games to offer. Think of how boring it would be if there were just one type of game. Variety is what makes this game so special.

Tally scratches his head about ROGUE's request for a friendly fire toggle switch, considers it something an über-nüb would request, and proceeds to mull this thread over more before commenting.

Nice post Bo.

ROGUE: "Butterflies?" Enter sluggy or RX or az's server after 9pm for an opinion revision.

LOL tally fro!!

Ummm rogue.....how do u think I became satan? Hehe....team scrum baby...team scrum has a lot of team battlemode in it...

Indie is an entirely different game than team scrum...in indie it is usually beneficial to only kill when u must...

Honestly....i shoot MORE in a heated game of team scrum than in TBM or CTF....step into a team scrum game with hankstatanksta, jangles and bolo and see how gentle we can be....:)

BTW if u think scrum is for weenies try scoring with bolo and hanksta on your ass and tally and hugo in the goal....

Oh yea...what tally said too....

@ben

Yea definately more strategy in TBM. Strategies vary per map, per opponents, etc...definately more than scrum...i think I used the wrong word for TS...TS has more "guidelines:...when to pass, stall, kill, block, camp, etc....TS strategies can vary depending on opponents and by maps but are pretty similar overall. TBM requires planning and analysis of the opponentes and the map's spawn points, ammo locations, powerup locations, etc and an agreed overall strategy is a must. (I must note that LC does a great job at this). TS is more of an understanding of what TO do and what NOT to do...the CTF maps definately have some attack and defense strategies that stem from TBM and a few from TS...

Give all the games an equal chance b4 u write them off...

B

@ All,

This debate is like trying to decipher who created the universe, or what is better PC or Mac. Who cares at the end of the day. It is a somewhat pointless debate, it is like saying what came first the egg or the chicken. The beauty of TT is the diversity it offers, we are not all the same, so while some people might like BM, they might not neccesarily like TBM (and vice versa), this also applies to Scrum.

Enjoy the game for what it is, trying to convert someone to scrum or bm is annoying as that person who tries to convert you to a different religion, or something alike. Stop the generalization and the stereotyping!!!! Remember that TT is a game after all, or so we keep on thinking. LOL.

Lauryn^TM

_{Disclaimer:- wow... I didn't think that anyone actually read the disclaimer. I guess you expected to read something intelligent. Well here it goes.... I'm actually glad that you are still awake after reading my thread.}

Butterflies? Naw, more like moths at a street lamp... Heh.

What happened? When I started reading Lauryn's post, it was yesterday.

A game Tactics versus a game of Strategy, pick your poison.

@ Tally Ho

Having an option to turn off friendly fire is very common, even in my limited gaming experience. But thank you for calling me a noob. I prefer to have that status in the gaming world. If somebody were to call me a vet I'd better get outside more

The butterfly and ogre comment was a joke. I thought the LOL would make that clear. Guess not.

@ Bolo

Yes you are satan. I found that out when I saw your tank explode and I saw a 666 rise up from your dust cloud.

Rogue "The Noob"

Beware scrummers, the Rogue cometh to dominate the scrum world when the weather once again turns cold.

Don't hate the playah, hate the game. South Central in da house! Up top!

<Cross-platform tourney anyone?>

Last edited: Thursday, May 13, 2004 at 11:43:09 AM

@ Rogue,

Its called CTF - team battlemode with the flag (scrum)

LOL

Lauryn^TM

Actually Lauryn, I meant a league where one week we play BM and the next scrum. We could use the rules from each league that already exist. Scrummers can have a draft and BMers can have a draft. Would be a good way to get more decent folk to play both and would break up the monotony. If you play both, pick a side sparky. Just a thought. Might be a good idea for a winter time league. My advice to you scrummers if this happens, better add some extra armor on your tanks.

IL DUCE "The Noob"

Last edited: Thursday, May 13, 2004 at 1:11:39 PM

Bobby, I dare say there is one thing that TS has over TBM: The Humor XD

I played in TBM 1.0 and found it dead serious. It's hard to laugh. Kill, get killed. BMers are more competitive and eager to win. Precision is crucial, so is team orchestration. While In TS winning or losing is irrelevant, for everyone is having fun. There is no 'I'm the best' for, who cares if you're the best? We're all having fun.

Other things drawing me to Team Scrum: the surreal moves, the airslug acrobatics, the amazing double swirls goals, the backbounce scoring, the arrowpad flights, the stealthy scrum theft, the tank magnets, the last-nanosecond steals, the ferocious campground battles, the comet killing you mid-air, the wicked spawns, the double-jointed ridge jumps, the backflip blocks, the deking back and forth, the kill just before the score, the teammanship - how everyone is necessary to win, there are no deadweights - and the insane tank dancing, the crafty and cunning ways to make it to the goal, the edge action, etc.

TeamScrum is best when you play with people that pass to teammates when wounded.

Also one great thing: the cordiality, the good sportmanship, and the amazingly funny witty dialogues.

That makes the day for me! XD

@Hugo: Except when HugoBaarain screams: "WE MUST WIN" repeatedly... B)

I can relate to Rogue when he says

I don't want to have my behavior censored in the game. Of course there are outright asshole behaviors that take away from the game (which most scrummers avoid), and if you repeatedly do these you will become disliked by your peers and cast a shadow on the aura of the entire game. But that said, most late night TS games on the Frantic Slug, FieldofScreams or the Baarnyard are highly competitive, meaning you play hard and are pretty much a target wherever you are. Lots of battlemode action that is a true part of the game. The intensity level is high, and the humor level is high too. There is something special about unleashing your entire arsenal up your opponents rear, while carrying on a casual and humorous conversation! A bizzare mix to be sure, but there is a truy special atmosphere in Team scrum. That the TS community is a bunch of friends who are top-notch sportsmen is definitely one of the great pleasures of this game. Nothing more fun than a good late-night TS server filled with great players and friends!

-RX

_{p.s. I still have yet to play a full 15 min game of BM or TBM...}

Last edited: Thursday, May 13, 2004 at 5:33:23 PM

Oooh a Tank Dork sighting... That's pretty funny, once I figured out why it was posted..

Though, this shot doesn't really prove the statement wrong, the real counterpoint would be to post a pic where someone in BM was saying something other than "lucky shot."

@Tankster, careful with the name calling, it usually hurts your argument more than it helps.