Forums Index >> General >> What do we do about Iraq??
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Well I dunno shell,
Maybe we should let the citizens decide? not these guys cause they're dead
I mean the only citizens that matter: americans.
You are right to frame this question as a "we" question. We Americans. No hypocricy there. The fate of the decendents of one of the oldest civilizations on earth is in our hands. We could ponder it over cucumber sandwiches and draft beer. Could you imagine another nation discussing what to do about "the american" question? Out of the question, isn't it? We are the solution, we are the answer. If we can only americanize the globe....luckily, stupidity and hate are traits easily fostered! If we can lower their iqs to the level of the red states, maybe the iraqis will support George W also.
There, problem solved!
Last edited: Saturday, November 13, 2004 at 10:19:11 AM
Well, unfortunately, ramrod, it is a "we" question now. Maybe it shouldn't have been, but we're just the latest rebound in a ball that started bouncing decades ago. And what's with the bizarre religio-Busho-mumbo-jumbo? Don't be devisive. The "red" states are all just stupid 'cuz they didn't vote for ur guy? C'mon...
Here's a link to a research paper a wrote on Iraq last year, if anyone's interested. It's just a quickie yahoo-website, no formatting, so for easy reading copy/paste it into a word processor. It got an A. Hope it's interesting and insightful.
And Ramrod, go read this thread. Read it repeatedly...
And stop impersonating a right-wing bomb thrower. Better yet, leave the forums alone and go play the game. 8o
Last edited: Saturday, November 13, 2004 at 7:45:09 AM
If the question you posed in the first post is any indication shell, it bodes ill for your hope that something of merit will be found there...
Whats with my crazy split personality? I lacked the voice to reach you conservatives, so I prayed and prayed and lo and behold! I found one! Devisive? Easy for the majority voice to ask the dissenting voice to sing along with the music...and 
red state education levels are documented everywhere, including on the census bureau's website, as being lower than blue states...so is the amount of money they spend on education.
Here's a heads up from someone tired beyond belief of half-assed attempts at propping up ideology by constructing logical arguments....facts rattling around your heads or displayed in congealing paragraphs don't mean much to me. Using your brain doesn't mean one lobe fondles the other...at some point synthesization of facts needs to be undertaken...all of the facts, not just convenient ones. You don't get to start "in medias res", for example, on the "iraq" question. Am I an ideologue too? Maybe I am. But my beliefs don't belong in politics...
But what am I saying? Screw this...i've failed a hundred times in this voice, because we speak very different languages. You guys employ a very regional dialect, and mine is a different venacular altogether... Back to character time...at least this a language you understand. You may not like it, but you are indebted to ramrod and his ilk...so here goes
"americans alredy dicided what to do about iraq. The iraqs adn OUR BRAVE TROOPS are in Gods hands now. He'll sort em out in his ULTIMATE WISDOM. It is a vane and selfish thing you attempt SHELLSHOCK when you attempt to second guess HIS HOLINESS"
Last edited: Saturday, November 13, 2004 at 8:11:51 AM
Oh no! I've outed myself....
(pssst....legendary.....dont get all bent out of shape. I play the fool to highlight the hypocrisy of the position many of the religious right find themselves in, and to demonstrate the power of unreason over reason. I am also trying to force the moderates to have to reconcile themselves to the fact that they share a political party with folks like ramrod -- the evangelicals. In fact, they are now in debt to the religious right and their party is no longer their own. These evangelicals are too house-broken and polite to speak this kind of sheer anachronic hate in mixed company, but ramrod here isn't. He is the voice of the red states. These folks talk of values and faith, while they rationalize the murder of thousands of innocent men, women and children in a war of our chosing.
Ramrod is an "in your face." to these moderates. He and his kind are the driving force behind the republican party. Their values aren't our values. They care more about seeing their faith affirmed than they do about peace, justice, education, equality, or the environment. This is a disgusting new demographic in american politics. It represents the triumph of our rulers to convince the unthinking, unblinking masses to assist them in their consolidation of power, and to validate the unbounded expression of that power around the world and here at home. So ease up buddy before you have an aneurysm)"
That cats out of the bag....
Ramrod's spelling may be a little weak, but he is a true lamb of God.
Tomorrow I will be preaching to Ramrod, Ronnie, his entire family and all of the "good" folks of Munson County in a special sermon on Patriotism. I will be telling them that God wants us to support our troops, George Bush and that He loves America. I will make the sermon short, to the point, and get everybody home in time for Nascar (donations seem to be a little bigger the following week if I get people out quickly).
I will share more details with all of you soon. Tell stinkfingers the Devil holds a special place in Hell for him.
Haleleyah!!!!!!
Er
Haleluyah!!!!!!!
Last edited: Saturday, November 13, 2004 at 8:36:53 AM
Ramrod, Who exactly are the "you guys" you refer to? You clearly havn't read any of my postings from the election threads. You must be too busy snorting your own ego and writing your oppinions as if they're the only, aghem, "gospel" truth to bother reading what others have to say. And how do you figure that I'm starting in medias res with Iraq? You clearly didn't read. I've researched this topic back to its very origins.
And you have no right to mock and misrepresent others' points of views, which you clearly don't even understand. Pastor Dan..... I'm sure.... Ya know, I could just as easily create a character called "Liberal Philosopher" and spout ridiciulous and insulting extreme-leftist nonsense. You're a wacko, Ramrod. Not an intellectual.
Frankly, Ramrod, I was not addressing you at all when I opened this thread. In fact, I will no longer be reading your assinine posts.
ATTENTION, EVERYONE. If anyone else reads this thread and wants to post, cool. But I encourage everyone to simply ignore Ramrod's schizo ravings in order to continue a reasonable discussion.
I certainly hope Ramrod isn't the only one who posts.
@Shellshock
So happy you got an "A" on your paper. I'm really proud of you. But, I'm afraid I'm going to have to continue to read rammie's schizo diatribes since behind the hilarious rhetoric is a great deal of truth. Sure beats looking at screenshots of how great the same person is again and again and again (yeesh, and the mods talk about taking up bandwith?).
The Iraq war is a strange "thing"? C'mon man! It's a freakin' catastrophe and will only get worse. Your "we" doesn't include me, the majority of the world, and all the blue states that wanted Bush out. It's the theatre of the absurd and beyond intellectualizing about. You DO have a divisive country as was evident from your election. And the rest of the world IS shaking its head wondering if the religious-right can really be that daft.
I would love to see your Liberal Philosopher character just so I knew you not only had a sense of humour, but to also see exactly what you find so insulting about rednecks making global decisions in the name of God?
@stinkrod: I thought republicans were rich,greedy, powerful elitists? Now they're all rednecked, illiterate, holy rollers? Just keep thrashing about like that, perhaps eventually you'll light on something which causes them to see the errors of their ways. However, I think the more probable outcome is further polarization against you're cause. Your statistics on states and percentages of the population which are college educated do not support a conclusion that republicans are uneducated. In every state listed, people with college degrees were a minority that could easily be outvoted by those without college degrees. You also fail to indicate whether the education spending you refer to, without providing data, is per capita numbers or absolute.
@jangles: A divisive country is good, when everyone in the united states starts agreeing on things you will have a large powerful country that will be able to implement rapid changes to domestic and international policy. Rapid change to complex systems, while sounding good in some instances, usually involves the little people in the equation getting screwed because of an oversight. Truth can stand on it's own, It doesn't need disingenuous stinkrod adornment.
In medias res....pose the problem as what we do about iraq, and gloss over the original problem...that is: what do we do about a administration that fabricates intelligence and uses a national crisis to propel a unilateral, preemptive attack on a sovereign country. And yes, shell, I've read your contributions....quite typical, quite small...but then again....there is that "A" paper to consider...fiddling with facts is a scream isn't it?
One lobe fondles the other...
why is all your thinking so goddam regional?
As I sayed, GOD wil sort out iraq
Here at home we have biger fish to fry
Washington - Federal judges are jeopardizing national security by issuing rulings contradictory to President Bush's decisions on America's obligations under international treaties and agreements, Attorney General John Ashcroft said Friday.
In his first remarks since his resignation was announced Tuesday, Ashcroft forcefully denounced what he called ``a profoundly disturbing trend'' among some judges to interfere in the president's constitutional authority to make decisions during war.
``The danger I see here is that intrusive judicial oversight and second-guessing of presidential determinations in these critical areas can put at risk the very security of our nation in a time of war,'' Ashcroft said in a speech to the Federalist Society, a conservative lawyers group.
Do you beleev it? These goddam sekulars juges are jeperdizing nashunal security and flouting GODSWILL by oposing GW Bush's HOLY MANDATE! Questioning our THEOCRAT in cheif ought to be ilegal, in fact im convinceds its some kinda of blue state pervershun. I meen, who cares if we lok up taliban terersts in some ragged HELLHOLE for the rest of there lives? The geneva convenshun only aplys to forein christians defeatd by american christians.
But despare not my friensd! If the 2004 elekshun is a sign from GOD and you know it is! Then we TRUE AMERICANS will cast out the wicked seculars who worship the false god of EVIL THOMAS JEFFERSON and comunist homersexulty groups like the ACLU.
"It's entirely in line with his overt hostility to dissent, debate and judicial review," Romero [of the ACLU ] said. "That further underscores the need for a wholesale review of Mr. Ashcroft's policies and a new direction in the Justice Department.''
A new direkshun? Let me tell you disent, debate, judicial reiview and ALL OTHER FORMS OF EUROPEEN PANSINESS lead to the DIREKSHUN OF THE DEVILS BISNESS!
Right bruther shellshock?
I know!
[sarcasm]We nuke iraq,kill everthing in there,and hope other country's don't care![/sarcasm]
I thought republicans were rich,greedy, powerful elitists?
Yes, in many cases they are. After all, the Republican party generally has their interests in mind, more so than the common uneducated folk. Not just my opinion either. History generally bears this out. It bears out with GW as well. (tax cuts for the super wealthy, incentives for corporations to offshore jobs, uncontested gov't contracts for company friends for jobs in Iraq, etc, etc)
Now they're all rednecked, illiterate, holy rollers?
Nope, they aren't, or at least in most cases they shouldn't be. Here, dash, is where all of the Bush supporters (notice I didn't say Republicans) are missing the point that Stinky has been trying to make for months on end, and is trying to do so now, but none of you will see, or don't want to see.
People like yourselves, based on your description, by all logical reasoning, shouldn't be supporting Bush. He doesn't have your interests in mind. He doesn't have the 'ramrods' of the countries interests in mind either. People like the ramrod persona exist out there, in the flesh, in larger numbers than most of us would like to admit. Most of these people voted Bush/Cheney, apparently in droves too. If you ask most of them why they voted as they did, they'll tell you, 'moral values', or 'because he's a devout Christian'. If those are your reasons too, then you've been duped. No, not by George W Bush. By Carl Rove. He's the one who orchestrated all this, to get the evangelicals to come out for him. Do you really think Dubya cares about these people? He used them like cheap whores. Now that he's in for 4 more years, he can go back to screwing the country some more, and giving more multi-million dollar contracts to his buddies, with your hard earned tax dollars.
As baklava said in another thread (or was it this one?), George flaunts his Christianity, as if it makes him special somehow. Do you really feel he fits into what a good Christian should be? Do you? I'm really curious to know. Every description I've heard of what a true good Christian should be from those of you who are religious on these boards, doesn't even begin to approach the description of GW.
Y'see, this has nothing to do with party affiliations. Forget Repub or Dem for a moment. Think about who you voted into office. Think about whether or not he really has your best interests in mind. Has he really helped education in this country? Has he helped get the economy kicking again? Has he helped make sure your kid will have a secure future in a country that doesn't have massive amounts of debt? Answer me those questions, please.
So, what do
you have in common with this man dash? You grew up poor, he grew up a rich kid. You're a minority, he was a privileged white kid. You've busted your butt to make a living for yourself and start up your own company. He was given jobs, and even given companies and pretty much ran it into the ground.
So, again, what do you see in him? I hope for your sake, it's more than his supposed 'moral values'. A LOT more.
Jesus christ! Yes yes yes OM!!!
Can anybody else hear this? Put down the party affiliations and give ideology a rest for a while.
Thank you OM
Exactly. Good post OM. Think of the person you actually put into office. Don't listen to what party they claim to be in or what ideology they claim to follow. Look at the actual person and what their actions are. Who that person is is determined by the actions that person does. There have been presidents who claimed to be in X party but acted quite a bit like a someone who would be in Y party. There are people who claim to follow X ideology but actually follow Y ideology. Don't look at what they claim. Then ask yourself, do I agree with that person's actions? I may agree with the ideology or the party that person claims to follow, but do I like the actual person? Look at John McCain. He's in the Republican party, but he practically acts like a typical Democrat. Mark Warner is in the Democrat party, but he might as well be in the Republican. Labels mean nothing.
Look on the bright side!
75 GOOD things about another Bush Administration!
By Ron Kretsch, Joshua Greene, Michael Gill, Pamela Zoslov and Jake Kelly
illustrations by Jake Kelly Wednesday, November 10, 2004
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SO YOU'RE A DISAPPOINTED, dejected, dispirited and demoralized Democrat whose candidate lost the election. Maybe you can't quite understand why high voter turnout and exit polls favoring John Kerry turned into a swift, “decisiveEelectoral victory for Bush. Maybe you read an article by some troublemaker (such as Greg Palast, “Kerry Won,Eat www.commondreams.org/views04/1104-36.htm) implying that something's amiss in Ohio and the country's electoral system. Or you're just plain scared about what lies ahead in the second administration of George W. Bush. More tax cuts for the rich, a bigger deficit, more unemployment, more pillaging of the environment, more bloodshed in Iraq?
Like Bill Clinton, we feel your pain. But we also want to help you, the marginalized progressive, embrace the inevitable. The fix is in, the die is cast, so you might as well turn that frown upside down and make the best of it. To help you forget your troubles, the Free Times provides the following list of 75 GOOD THINGS to look forward to during the next four years. Enjoy!
1. Church and state will cease to be burdened by painful separation.
2. The rise of the Amish as a political demographic will result in pork-barrel subsidies, making quaintly charming, durable quilts affordable to the working poor, and resulting in a much higher grade of welfare cheese.
3. Fans of George Orwell will have a grand time playing “spot-the-veiled-referenceEin the names of legislative initiatives (e.g. “Healthy ForestsEand “Clear SkiesEinitiatives). Next: “No Voter Left Uncounted.E
4. New generations will learn how to fight for collective bargaining and reproductive rights.
5. More strife on the streets + fewer cops = WAY better drugs will be cheap and plentiful.
6. The prison-building boom will continue, making “three hots and a cotEreadily available to all impoverished Americans willing to commit crimes, like, say, disagreeing with the government.
7. Mental retardation will finally be wiped out, the quick, easy, lethal-injection way pioneered by the visionary scientists of the great state of Texas.
8. The erosion of labor protections will put us in prime shape to compete with Third World sweatshops.
9. Job opportunities galore in Riyadh, Tikrit, Kabul, Baghdad, TehranE
10. Mexico will finally take care of the problem of porous borders, sealing off the Rio Grande to keep Americans from crossing south in an attempt to get their old jobs back.
11. After four years of Bush, Cleveland is already the poorest city in the USA. With four more years, we've got a real shot at number one in the industrialized WORLD!!! Woo hoo! In your FACE, Detroit!
12. We'll finally get universal health care without tax increases, thanks to a faith-based initiative from the Christian Scientists.
13. More health care: mandatory antidepressants for Democrats, Greens, and eventually even moderates. Bonus: pharmaceutical stocks will soar ever higher, boosting the economy for at least a couple of guys.
14. A sharply sinking dollar will finally give France, Germany and other Euro-using former allies a reason to be happy about the U.S. Again.
15. More Americans will learn to embrace foreign cultures when they emigrate back to the countries their grandparents came from.
16. Out-of-reach fuel prices mean less time wasted looking for parking spots.
17. The “Creative ClassEwill get a huge shot in the arm due to massive demand for Ten Commandments monuments, the robing of nude and semi-nude statues and paintings, and retouching the capitalists in Diego Rivera murals to make them look friendlier.
18. Delicious irony in “Thou Shalt Not KillEbeing posted in Congress and the White House.
19. By executive order, the Sun will once again officially revolve around the Earth, saving wear-and-tear on the planet.
20. More Middle Eastern theocracies and dictatorships will be given the sweet, sweet freedom to vote for an American puppet leader.
21. The success of gay marriage bans will introduce a wave of new initiatives to outlaw stuff that's already not legal to begin with, keeping right-wing legislators too busy to conjure up more Patriot Acts.
22. Ken Lay will now surely qualify for a pardon, leaving him free to start a new company to provide glorious new jobs for Americans Eand Singaporeans, Bangladeshis, FilipinosE
23. We're safe from those scary wolves on TV!
24. In fact, we'll be safe from any threat posed by just about ALL wildlife.
25. More assault weapons + fewer cops = totally badass reality TV.
26. The “New DealEis actually several decades old! We'll finally give it a nice vacation.
27. The threat of the draft could make America's high school students more studious in competition for college deferments, narrowing our education gap with the rest of the civilized world.
28. The return of unlicensed back-alley abortionists will create competition in the medical field, bringing costs down for everyone!
29. New White House Press Secretary Ann Coulter will keep news conferences interesting with hilariously insane statements and above-the-knee skirts.
30. Safety cuts will cause the return of neighborhood-based vigilante gang policing, returning the sense of community that many American cities have lost.
31. Now that the American left has been administered an electoral smackdown, we may finally get to see if Bill O'Reilly has anything to say besides “shut upEand “hey, where's the falafel EI'm horny.E
32. A weak dollar and fewer jobs mean less money. Less money means fewer possessions. Freeing one's self of the burden of material things is the first step on the path to enlightenment.
33. Betting pool: will “Star WarsEmissile defense come out before Star Wars: The Revenge of the Sith?
34. Toxin-enhanced, monster sized rats are goooooood eatin'! Try ‘em with sautéed bark.
35. Coin collectors and consumers alike will welcome the new 1/2- and 1/4-pennies, embossed with the likenesses of President-for-Life George W. Bush and Vice President-for-Life Rick Santorum (to be appointed when Cheney's heart finally gives out).
36. Increased funding for natural history museums, so we can all learn about how dinosaur fossils were planted by Satan.
37. Adventurous Americans, especially those who take advantage of the newly relaxed gun laws, will learn more creative means of property acquisition.
38. Mad Cow Disease is a non-issue when no one can afford beef anyway.
39. In the event that any of our soldiers return, their inability to find work will ensure them the long break they've inarguably earned.
40. Crappy local news broadcasts will become infinitely cooler as they start to look more and more like Mel Gibson's cult classic The Road Warrior.
41. Displaced laborers are easily retrained as union-busting goons.
42. Inner-city devastation and brownfield fires will free up land for the struggling agriculture sector.
43. More invasions make no difference; we've always been at war with Eurasia.
44. With Al Gore declining to run, Joe Lieberman being a nonentity in the primaries, and Tom Daschle losing his Senate seat, the end is in sight for the Quislings in the Democratic Leadership Council.
45. With homelessness on the rise in northern industrial cities, Democratic voters will migrate south for warmer outdoor living, turning some of those red states blue.
46. The Stalinization of history to mask the fact that liberals ended the Great Depression and won WWII will keep paychecks flowing to lucky fiction writers for years.
47. By staying in Iraq until “the jobEis done, we'll have the luxury of time to figure out what “the jobEis.
48. New education reforms will guarantee that all of America's children are equally fluent in Arabic.
49. Extra limbs on mutant livestock will stretch your grocery dollar.
50. You can expand your lefty library with Michael Moore's Stupid White Ohio , Al Franken's Ohio is a Big Fat Idiot and Molly Ivins' Who Let Ohio In ?
51. As environmental mercury levels rise, we'll all turn into thermometers!
52. The effective disenfranchisement of Congressional Democrats will ensure that they always show up for work relaxed and refreshed.
53. Air pollution actually does help create especially colorful sunsets.
54. If the World Bank forecloses on the U.S., we'll be treated to the amusing sight of suits working together with unionists and college stoners at WTO and IMF protests.
55. Innovative new Social Security plan: more Wal Marts = more jobs for elderly greeters.
56. Now that it's obvious to the world that slightly more than half of us are completely fucking insane, maybe Canada will let the blue states secede and become provinces.
57. The last several years' boom in SUV sales will start to look less and less stupid as it becomes desirable to have a vehicle your whole family can live in.
58. The Northeast Ohio Coalition for the Homeless will become an incredibly potent entity when it represents more than half of Cleveland's population.
59. Smart investors who buy into yellow- ribbon futures NOW will likely avoid the more devastating effects of economic depression.
60. One word: Condoleezzagate!
61. Local media will go crazy as Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell undergoes extreme makeover to better resemble his role model, Katherine Harris.
62. New exhibit at Hale Farm, right between candle-dipping and sheep-shearing, called “VotingEEa fond and funny look back at the olden days, when votes were actually counted rather than fed to the nearest shredder.
63. Time saved on reading, unless you're interested in thousands more hand-wringing articles on “What's Wrong with the Democrats?E
64. More equal rights Efor corporations. Corporate personhood will now allow companies to hold elective office. Make way for President Halliburton and Vice President Diebold!
65. Closer ties with Mother England as the U.S. Continues its return to hereditary monarchy. Tally-ho!
66. Plenty of time for Bill Maher, Jon Stewart and Al Franken to come up with Beverly Hillbillies -inspired riffs on “President Jeb.E
67. New education initiative will mandate the revival of literacy tests at the polls. Remember, reading is FUNdamental!
68. Shredded, uncounted Kerry ballots will make colorful confetti for coronation, er, inauguration of George II.
69. We're spared four years of ketchup and pickle jokes.
70. It goes without saying that tavern owners will prosper.
71. As the educational system deteriorates, frazzled parents can rest assured that willful children will no longer “get smartEor “crack wiseE
72. Live out your favorite cinematic clichés while standing around an oil drum fire, asking a brother to spare a dime and carrying all your belongings in a bindle.
73. “Girly-menEwill remain the wildly popular rebuke America can't get enough of.
74. President Bush will keep his promise that here will not be a draft. Mandatory military service for all eligible18 year olds isn't the same thing as a draft.
75. It's just so much easier to let George have his way. Why fight it? Your eyelids are getting heavy. Sleep. Sleep. Tomorrow's another episode of Survivor.
That article help me out alot.
Last edited: Saturday, November 13, 2004 at 10:54:00 PM
Hay TRUE AMERICANS! Do you beleeve howerd deen? Git alode of this:
"The truth is the president of the United States used the same device that Slobodan Milosevic used in Serbia. When you appeal to homophobia, when you appeal to sexism, when you appeal to racism, that is extraordinarily damaging to the country," Dean charged. "I know George Bush. I served with him for six years [as a fellow governor]. He's not a homophobe. He's not a racist. He's not a sexist. In some ways, what he did was worse ... Because he knew better."
Do you beleev that SACRILIGE? He makes it seem like being a homofobic, racist, sexist bigot is UNGODLY! Well if thats true WHY DOES THE BIBBLE PREECH that 1 homersexulty is a sin, 2 a womens place is in the home, and 3 that there is such a THING AS A CHOSEN PEPLE??? Havent you peple evre seen JESUSes portrait? Hes jest as white as me an you!!!! And dont go sayin he looked like a hippy. He just condnt aford a hare cut - probly cause the romans taxed his last nikel away! Typicl librals!
The former Vermont governor also responded to an ad by the conservative Club for Growth in which two ordinary Americans said Dean should take his "tax-hiking, government-expanding, latte-drinking, sushi-eating, Volvo-driving, New York Times-reading, body-piercing, Hollywood-loving, left wing freak show back to Vermont where it belongs."
GOD that makes my hart prod! Git bak to yer GODFORSAKEN bluestate, you unsaved heathen! We in the RED stats won ourselfs a mandate....one that says you dont define OUR VALUES. We do!
Ps. Paster dave gave me an A on this esay. Does that make me an intelekshul now?
@Bertha: That list is the cutest bowl of tripe I've seen in a while.
@OM:
My tax burden has been significantly less under George Bush than it was under Clinton. It's still to high but he wasn't able to get all the tax cuts through the senate that would have helped me out. I don't vote on religious issues. My education is as a scientist and I like numbers and data when making decisions. Something I never get straight from either party, the media, or weblogs. I get my leads there, usually when someone has commited statistical butchery then I go over here
or to a similar site and dig around until I find the raw data and crunch it myself. I don't care how bush fairs in an international popularity contest, we'll let our actors win those for us. I've read both conservative and liberal versions of George Bush's life and the truth lies in-between, just like John Kerry's. I've read the liberal and conservative takes on Iraq. No one has proven to my satisfaction that going in there was knowingly done under false pretenses.
@OM: I don't agree with you and so instead of providing something to convince me I should agree with you, you state I must have been duped. Guess what people like me don't claw there way out of the bottom of the barrel by getting duped every step of the way. So what George was born rich and John has convenient taste in women, neither earned his money.
@stinkrod:
Can anybody else hear this? Put down the party affiliations and give ideology a rest for a while.
Nice dodge attempt. I'm not a registered republican I just identify more with that party currently than democrats. And I didn't post any ideology, you did. I don't see you putting up anything but liberal and democratic party views. Your stereotyping a group I identify with and I'm pointing out that I think your wrong. I didn't vote a straight ticket and I never do. You forgot to answer regarding the pathetic "statistics" which were supposed to support your view that republicans are uneducated
So I guess I'll touch on that again. Your statistics on states and percentages of the population which are college educated do not support a conclusion that republicans are uneducated. In every state listed, people with college degrees were a minority that could easily be outvoted by those without college degrees. You also fail to indicate whether the education spending you refer to, without providing data, is per capita numbers or absolute. If your going to post numbers to support your position, make sure they do so. If your going to allude to numbers which support your position, don't
RE: "@Bertha: That list is the cutest bowl of tripe I've seen in a while."
The "tripe" is actually humor on the facts.
RE: "My tax burden has been significantly less under George Bush than it was under Clinton."
Well good for you. If that's all you care about then I pity you. The "tripe" I posted and the sad truth it reveals is irrelevant to you because YOUR TAX BURDEN HAS BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY LESS UNDER GEORGE BUSH! Congratulations! Buy a Yacht!
@Bertha: no chance on the yacht but I might be able to upgrade the aging subaru which is my families sole vehicle
@dash
In response to your first comment to me that a divisive country is good one, I can only ask to what measure? But, that's really up to you guys to decide.
I don't care how bush fairs in an international popularity contest
Well, you should and it's precisely that indignation that gives the US a bad name everywhere else BUT the US. FWIW, 80% of Canadians live within 200 km of the US/Canada border ( hence my great ping on your server, merci buckets :)) and
60% favoured Kerry while only 22% favoured Dubya.
Wanna bet that 22% came from the Prairies? You might as well draw a red line from the south straight up. Go figure.
Edit: I had included Quebec outta spite, but have now taken them off the list. Pardon Moi.
Last edited: Sunday, November 14, 2004 at 1:15:09 AM
Dash: its correlational. Look it up yourself if you're such a wizard. Again...you will be looking at a "correlation."
So you get a nice tax break?
What do the 17 million children living under the poverty level get?
what do the 100,000 dead iraqis get?
what do all flora and fauna get from the proposed drilling in anwar or the effects of the "clear skies" initiative or the "healthy forests" initiatives, or the refusal to ratify the kyoto agreement?
what do the 1000 dead american soldiers get?
what do outsourced workers get?
what do the millions of americans living without healthcare get?
what does halliburton get?
what do companies that stole from the american public like Enron get?
I'm glad you took the risk and told us all about your tax break....sounds pretty altruistic, I'm sure Jesus is glad to have you in his fold.
Oh fer chryse sake. Red states? Blue states? People act like one state voted 100% Bush or Kerry. Didn't happen.
The answer seems to be that the amount of red on the map is skewed because there are a lot of counties in which only a slim majority voted Republican. One possible way to allow for this, suggested by Robert Vanderbei at Princeton University, is to use not just two colors on the map, red and blue, but instead to use red, blue, and shades of purple to indicate percentages of voters. Here is what the normal map looks like if you do this:
Well then here's an idea: why not ditch the electoral college and count every vote?
RE: "what do the 1000 dead american soldiers get?"
A tax break.
OK dash, that's fine if you disagree with me. However, for clarification, if you read my statement again, I only said that if you voted for religious reasons alone, then you were duped. You clarified that this was not the case, which I'm honestly glad to hear about. It's unfortunate there was a huge percentage of the population who DID vote based on religious preference… and little else.
But you clarified that you got a tax break, as one of the reasons you voted for him. Was there anything else? Y'know, I got a tax break too. Not a huge one, but it all depended on your income of course. Still, I would happily give that up to have the National surplus back, instead of the largest US deficit of all time. I guess as a scientist, things like the environment don't matter? What about education? Human rights and freedoms? If none of these matter, then be proud you voted for Bush. If they do, I really beg you to think about your choice a little harder.
You also state no-one has proven to you that we went into Iraq under false pretenses. Well, no-one has proven to me that we didn't. So I guess we'll come to no conclusions there. I personally feel that the onus was on the government and this administration in particular to prove that they didn't lie to this country about the WMDs. I've yet to see that. Until then, I'll believe what I do.
It's nice to read OM's posts because he is the only liberal on this post who has argued without insulting my intelligence. Stinky might try to argue a point without dumbing himself down to all the thtoopid republicans, and then actually treat them like intelligent beings. The only thing stinky has shown me with ramrod is the low level of intelligence you would have to possess to assume something as random as EDUCATION defined the outcome of this election. Insulting the numerous intelligent people I know who voted for Bush is no way to argue a point. Try getting through a thread without an ad hominem attack on people you don't even know.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-uscia1114,0,707331.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
We can fire the dissenters.
–––––OT–––––
We can also do these things:
http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/sultana_of_the_texas_taliban_scourge_of_scholars_despoiler_of_textbooks/
and these things:
http://americablog.blogspot.com/archives/2004_11_01_americablog_archive.html#110029085523707507
and my favorite little morsel so far:
http://americablog.blogspot.com/archives/2004_11_01_americablog_archive.html#110028129817921144
–––––––––––––
In other news { http://www.votecobb.org/
} they're 29k away from reccounting Ohio.
Let there be light.
Last edited: Sunday, November 14, 2004 at 4:22:48 PM
All those blogs seem to prove is that "truth" has a relative meaning.
Actually Ben, the 1st americablog link proves what I've said up top. The Bush admin doesn't give a rat's ass about the religious right who they used to get back into office. So now they're feeling cheated. I wish I could feel sorry for them.
Ben,
The history of communication is marked by rejection of forms we now look to every day for news and insight. Decentralized media can be abused to propagate bullshit, but the blog medium is not worthless because of its format. Do you think if it's not on TV or in the newspaper, it's not true?
Do you think if it's on TV or in the newspaper, it is true?
Who do you think decides what goes on the front page and gets air time?
Did someone say public interest?
Not anymore: Objectivity is a myth, and the 30 minutes of trash on your local news is entertainment.
*
Which part of Saving Private Ryan is relative truth?
Which part of it demands censorship?
Hideous. The republican camp is pro-war, except when we see it. They like sending kids to die, just don't put it on the t.v.
Concealed truth ----> Advanced agenda.
Forty years after Senator Barry Goldwater crashed and burned as the Republican Party's conservative presidential candidate, a consolidated conservative movement spearheaded by evangelical Christians carried George W. Bush to victory. The re-election of the president wasn't so much determined by Soccer Moms, NASCAR Dads, or military voters as it was by Karl Rove's army of “Values Voters” -- an unwaveringly loyal bloc of Republican Party voters that marched to the polls and provided President Bush the votes necessary in a number of key states, including the pivotal battleground state of Ohio.
“They showed up. The Republican base, that is,” wrote Charles Pierce in an item posted at Eric Alterman's web log, Altercation. “The people who believe that their marriages are threatened by those of gay people, the people who believe there were WMD in Iraq and that Saddam waved a hankie at Mohammed Atta, the people who believe His eye is on every embryo. They all showed up, and there are more of them than there are of us. This was a faith-based electorate and, for whatever reason, their belief was stronger than our reality. This is a country I do not recognize any more.”
With the possible appointment of two, perhaps three, Supreme Court Justices -- including a Chief Justice -- and dozens of judges in lower courts, more tax cuts for the wealthy, the further evisceration of social programs, the privatization of social security, the lowering the wall of the separation of church and state, and more foreign adventures, conservative Christians have given the president the opportunity to forge a right wing legacy that could last well into this century.
Make no mistake about it: Team Bush is dead set on nothing less than reshaping America.
For the first time in many election observers' memories, exit polls found that streams of Bush voters cited their concern about terrorism and “moral values” in nearly equal numbers as their most important issues. “Moral values” -- a phrase that has little to do with what constitutes good and evil and more to do with a set of specific social concerns expressed by conservative Christians -- handily trumped concerns over taxes, education, the war in Iraq and health care issues. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, “Of those who said religious convictions were important as a quality in their leader, 91 percent voted for Bush.”
Throwing a dart to the heart of the same-sex marriage movement was a major motivating factor for the turnout of “values voters” in the eleven states where anti-same-sex marriage initiatives were on the ballot. In Mississippi, 86 percent of voters backed the state's anti-same-sex marriage initiative; in Arkansas the number was 75; in Georgia it was 77; in Kentucky, 75; in Oklahoma, 76; in North Dakota, 73; in Utah, 66; in Montana, 66; in Ohio, 62; in Michigan, 59; and in Oregon, 58.
After twenty-five years of both under the radar organizing and open campaigning, it is surprising that so many were "surprised" by the existence of a so-called faith-based electorate. John Zogby, the head of Zogby International, and Frank Newport, the editor in chief of the Gallup Poll, maintained that they were caught napping by the emergence of such a well-organized faith-based electorate.
“When we did our polling before the election and asked people the five most important issues on their minds, moral values just never came up,” Zogby told the San Francisco Chronicle. Newport called religion, “the untold story of this election.”
Well-funded Christian right organizations were elated with the results of Tuesday's election:
“After a long night the results are in, and it is clear that values voters have ushered President George W. Bush down the aisle for a second term,” crowed an ebullient Tony Perkins in a post election day missive from the Washington, DC-based offices of the Family Research Council.
In an online fundraising letter, Jon Garthwaite, the editor of TownHall.com, effusively wrote: “Four more years. That's the verdict from the voters. President George W. Bush gets a second term. And we conservatives get an unprecedented opportunity to shape America's future for generations to come.”
CitizenLink, an online publication of Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family, headlined its post-election story, “’Values Voters’ Make the Difference.” “For too long, liberal political pundits have been telling us that issues like marriage and life divide us as a people,” said Gary Bauer, a former Republican presidential candidate and president of the pro-family group American Values. But it's clear that while those issues may be controversial, they are not divisive.
“People reach across such boundaries as party, economic status and ethnic group to join together to support and protect the American family. This is the year of the “values voter’”
Appearing on the Southern Baptist Convention television network FamilyNet, Richard Land, the president of the SBC Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, called Bush's victory -- coupled with Republican majorities in both the House and Senate – “a testimony to the president's ability to connect with the American people.”
Two years ago, longtime GOP activist Mark McKinnon opined on the cultural divide in the country in a conversation with journalist Ron Suskind. In Suskind's recent New York Times Magazine piece titled “Without a Doubt,” he reported on the exchange:
“You think he's [President Bush] an idiot, don't you?” I [Suskind] said, no, I didn't. “No, you do, all of you do, up and down the West Coast, the East Coast, a few blocks in southern Manhattan called Wall Street. Let me clue you in. We don't care. You see, you're outnumbered 2 to 1 by folks in the big, wide middle of America, busy working people who don't read The New York Times or Washington Post or The L.A. Times. And you know what they like? They like the way he walks and the way he points, the way he exudes confidence. They have faith in him. And when you attack him for his malaprops, his jumbled syntax, it's good for us. Because you know what those folks don't like? They don't like you!” In this instance, the final “you”, of course, meant the entire reality-based community.
To many who have followed the rise of the Christian Right in American politics, the mobilization of the faith-based electorate was not a surprise. Jerry Sloan, the head of Project Tocsin, a Sacramento, California-based organization founded by in 1991 “to monitor the political activities of Religious Political Extremists in Sacramento County” said in a recent e-mail: “For the past decade Democrats have ignored, fled from, and failed to address the Radical Religious Right head on. This failure has now placed our beloved Republic in dire peril.”
In the end, there was no significant October Surprise; Osama bin Laden wasn't captured, and his well-timed video caused a major stir but only a minor blip. And there were no unseemly personal revelations about either of the candidates. The large turnout of “Values Voters” did, however, result in a “November Surprise.”
(11/11/2004)
- by Bill Berkowitz, The Dissident Vote
Shall we read more about the election, yes?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6368819/#041114a
Well here in IL
It is dam near ALL republican rednecks, rich bastids and people not smart enough to understand the difference between the two parties. If it wasnt for all the minorities in chicago we would be a 100% republican state. The map of IL demonstrates....
B
@Ben
So......I assume my post about the world hating YOUR king was not truth and merely, simply, insulting your intelligence? You'll be 18 soon, yes? Your convictions mean nothing to me unless you're prepared to suit up for and fight the Iraq war.
You ready to go, tough guy? Eh?
And bring Cadc with you - your other noble brainiac and co-leader of your "supposed" army.
Then, come back and tell me how smart and talented you are.
That is, if you can.
I was never a particularly political person, but as an outside observer into the nitty-gritty of this forum, it's apparent NO American conservative can give a RATIONAL answer as to WHY Bush is in office - other than a tax break here and there or that he SEEMS to possess a better ability than Kerry - through God's Eyes - to know the values of the people. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
How myopic.
How pathetic.
You have to understand something about Republican/conservatives in America Jangles. Reasonable arguments/debates only go in one direction for them. If someone wants to bring up a counterpoint then they resort to claiming they are being picked-on or persecuted for what they believe. Don't confuse them with the facts, their minds are made up.
Oh...i like this ojibwa person..
The persecuted majority, or something.
People think I made this ramrod crap up...get a load of this :
Bob Jones III, president of the fundamentalist college of the same name, has written a letter to the president telling him that "Christ has allowed you to be his servant" so he could "leave an imprint for righteousness," by appointing conservative judges and approving legislation "defined by biblical norm."
"In your re-election, God has graciously granted America - though she doesn't deserve it - a reprieve from the agenda of paganism," Mr. Jones wrote. "Put your agenda on the front burner and let it boil. You owe the liberals nothing. They despise you because they despise your Christ." Way harsh.
"agenda of paganism?' holy christ! I gotta remember that one!
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/111504F.shtml
The ramrod thing sounds like something from Landover Baptist Church.. *points in direction of landoverbaptist.org*
And yes, that image Ojibwa put up is a good one.
Well, we seem to have strayed a bit from the Iraq topic, so I thought I would get back to it by "killing two birds with one stone," so to speak. There is one issue that plays a huge role, in my opinion, of both the Bush administation's core reasoning for going into Iraq AND the reason that Alberta, Canada was so pro-Bush (it's not the prairies themselves, j - I think you have to dig a little deeper):
Check out the Industry section of this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta .
It seems to me that this has always been at the heart of the Bush-Cheney motivation. Things like gay marriage, abortion, etc. Are key ingredients, but any chef knows it's the sauce that ties all of the ingredients together and provides the defining flavor of the dish. The danger isn't obvious or dramatic, like choking on a chunk of anti-gay-marriage boudin or sauteed anti-abortion legislation - we're more likely to succumb to long-term poisoning from the Texas-tea-based roux, folks. If it isn't the environmental or economic damage domestically, it very well may be the eventual repercussions of malignant foreign policy driven by this goop.
So, even though I've given my thoughts on a root cause of our involvement in Iraq, does that root cause have any part to play in where to go from here with respect to Iraq? Let's see, I remember that part of the Bush financial plan for Iraq (pre-invasion) was to use Iraqi oil proceeds to pay for rebuilding. Hmm, that hasn't really come to pass, right? With a crappy infrastructure that is highly susceptible to sabotage (and I don't think even a draft would get enough troops in there to eliminate the attacks on those lines), it doesn't seem likely. And even if the pipelines were secured, do we really think the "Iraqi people" (good point, shell) would want their lifeblood used to pay non-Iraqi corporations (Halliburton or not) a profit? I really don't see that move helping things over there. When it comes down to it, I think we've stepped in the proverbial shit-like substance and we're going to have to face the fact that we're gonna smell and our dirty carpet tracks will follow us around for a while.
I'll have to ponder a solution for a while longer, I guess.
Sorry - I couldn't resist:
Trautman: You did everything to make this private war happen. You've done enough damage. This mission is over, Rambo. Do you understand me? This mission is over! Look at them out there! Look at them! If you won't end this now, they will kill you. Is that what you want? It's over Johnny. It's over!
Rambo: Nothing is over!!! Nothing!!! You just don't turn it off! It wasn't my war! You asked me, I didn't ask you! And I did what I had to do to win! But somebody wouldn't let us win! And I come back to the world and I see all those maggots at the airport, protesting me, spitting. Calling me baby killer and all kinds of crap! Who are they to protest me?! Who are they?! Unless they've been me and been there and know what the hell they're yelling about!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trautman: It's over, Johnny. It's over!
Rambo: Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off! You asked me I didn't ask you! And I did what I had to do to win, for somebody who wouldn't let us win! Then I come back to the world, and I see all those maggots at the airport, protestin' me, spittin', callin' me a baby killer and all kinds of vile crap! Who are they to protest me?! Huh?! Who are they?! Unless they been me and been there and know what the hell they yellin' about!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trautman: It's over, Johnny. It's over!
Rambo: Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off!
You're right, George. I did over-generalize stating the prairies and thank you for the link, lol; but, it's not something that I nor most Canadians have to dig deeper about as we are very aware of where our oil reserves lie. Furthermore, Ralph Klein, the premier of Alberta, is a very well-known, ultra right-wing conservative up here.
Also note, according to the link I provided above, it was the Atlantic provinces who favoured Bush the most (51% in favour of Kerry). So, factually speaking, it would be only fair to include some red colours in the map of North America to the north-east. Needlesstosay, Canada is overwhelmingly anti-Bush and against the Iraq war.
So, is this where the political discussion is going to stick? Yea or no?
I find this an interesting blend of sides, much similar to the recent election/political debate, and a better discussion of what is going on than what I see even on TV or in print. You are an interesting people.
Also, I find the debate here better than many others that I have been involved in – though this has really rough edges.
All I expect here is a good point/counterpoint. A clash of arguments. What I get are better perspectives on issues.
I don't expect anyone will change sides as a result of this discussion.
If I may have offended the Lefties by saying that I am "drowning in your leaps of unreason", I apologize.
That said, you’re getting no freebies, either. Every goal is contested. TT is history for me, maybe until 2.0, and I hope this goes on. If not, c’est la vie.
I've never been offended. Well, I never stayed offended I should say, JJ. Take care.
Zeonic: very perceptive....i post at Landoverbaptist also! My name there is Judd Moody, Holy Roller. Those guys are a real scream.
Last edited: Monday, November 15, 2004 at 5:44:03 PM
^ That said, I skimmed dash's thread and all the previous posts here.
Dash's was truly amazing.
As I understood it, dash was attempting to profile himself and other republicans, simply for his own benefit. Not yours. Instead, he gets a litany of flaming quotes.
"why I started this moronic spew in the first place...none of you will stake a claim so I staked one for you."
"I figure if you all get to determine our political future, the very least you owe us -- in light of the myriad failing of the bush ad on every front during the first four years -- is an explanation."
"Move beyond superficiality...the winning team jumped ship to gloat and chest-beat, which is what I suspect this is for the above reasons."
Pure emotional attack.
Instead of letting dash go his way -- and he stated it very clearly -- your response was to roll out the bandwagon.
Be afraid of those Republicans! They are going to destroy civilization!
You switch points on dash and then start up the bandwagon. Weak.
You guys can argue better than that. I've seen it.
Last edited: Monday, November 15, 2004 at 6:27:36 PM
Leaving JJ? Well, it's been fun jousting with you. If I've ever offended you in these threads, I apologize. All I ever wanted was to clearly understand why someone supports Bush. In fact, that's mostly what everyone wanted from dash too. Yes, it came across in an ugly fashion, I will admit. But it is after all, a VERY heated topic.
Unlike dash, I don't care at all for the extreme divisiveness in this country. Not one bit. I think it's ugly and very sad. I never thought I'd ever have feelings of contempt rise up in me towards my fellow Americans. I don't see that as a good thing at all. But for as hard as I've tried not to feel it, it's there, I can't deny it. It's there because of how vastly different our views our on what direction the country should be taking.
All I've wanted to do with you, and with dash as well, is understand why the qualities of your life make you vote Republican. Unfortunately, we have never gotten a straight answer. We got a partial answer from dash (tax break), but I have respect for dash. I know there must be more. If he voted as he did just because he got some money from the Bush admin, I will lose all respect for him. That's an incredibly self serving position. Again, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here, in that I feel there must be more to it.
If we as a country are ever to get past this divide, we need to begin understanding each other, even if we disagree completely on the issues. Disagreeing and understanding are two different things. They can both exist together.
FWIW, I have no issues at all with someone being religious. Honestly, if it makes someone happy, they can go to church every single day of their lives. Give 75% of your income to your local church, makes no difference to me.
But… as soon as people start voting others into "public" office, based almost entirely on whether or not they see this individual as a "good Christian", then I feel they have lost track of what democracy is about. This IS
still a democracy, not a theocracy. We aren't voting for the next Pope. We're voting for the next President. And I fear that the religious right has lost focus on a big part of what this country was founded on. So now they want to push for things like prayer in schools. Well, when I have a child, I don't want them praying in school. It's my choice as someone living in a free country not to have that forced upon myself or my child. They need to remember that the part in the Constitution about freedom of religion also means freedom to NOT choose religion.
The Democratic insularity on terrorism and Iraq, I find poor.
Those who argue about missing WMD and the terrorist link to Iraq see everything revolving around what goes on here politically. You want only half the picture. Except, of course, if there is a handy debating point to show how the Arab world will not respect us.
This is one of those times in world history when there is a clash of world views on a huge scale.
Did you know that Islam thinks that man is basically good? The Judeo-Christian world view says that man was good but is now fallen.
Which do you think ^ are correct? Do you think this is pertinent?
It creates an enormous dilemna if it is pertinent.
That question aside, there are no proactive Democratic talking points on world affairs. None. Give me an example of the Democrats doing something proactive in a positive way toward Islamists?
Last edited: Monday, November 15, 2004 at 6:47:34 PM
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Hi everyone. I've been loving the political discussions going on in the forums lately, and Iraq has been a topic that has surfaced a lot, but not been dealt with in-depth.
The Iraq war is a strange thing. Our govt. Either lied or was lied to about the WMDs in Iraq, or was too slow to get them and they went over the border to haunt us later (scarey thought). But still, a question: was Saddam Husein a bad guy? Um, yeah. We're still finding his mass graves all over the place. Is the world a better place without him? Yeeeecks :S. That's harder to answer. You see, we're trying to set up an "Iraqi" democracy right now in Saddam's wake. The problem is, and this is something I havn't heard anyone talk about this whole time, is that there is no so a person as an "Iraqi".
We think in very nationalistic terms: "I'm an American", "he's a Frenchman", "they're Brits", etc... This is not the case in Iraq. The country of Iraq is a figment of the British imagination from the 1920s. After WWI, they were given the mandate over that region and drew a political boundry around three totally incompatible people groups: the Kurds in the north (for the oil), the Sunni Muslims in the Baghdad region, and the Shi'ite Muslims in the Basra region. Each of those regions had been a seperate province under the Ottoman Empire before the Brits toppled it in the War, and each had had little to do with the others for millenia leading up to that. By grouping them together into a single political unit, the Brits put three hornets in a jar, shut the lid, and shook it up.
Practicaly all of the Kurds are Sunni, most of the Arabs are Shi'ite. Kurd to Arab ratio: 40/60. Shiite to Sunni ratio: 40/60. There is inter-Arab conflict along Sunni/Shi’ite lines. There is inter-Sunni conflict along Arab/Kurdish lines. There is Sunni/Shi’ite conflict along Kurdish/Arab lines. Add to this the constant infighting of the tribal warlords and you have one seriously screwed up region.
But what's the solution? I'm not so sure creating a democracy there is the right answer; in fact I'm pretty worried about. The last time we created a democracy in a place that wasn't ready for one was in post WWI Germany. In 1918 we created the Weimar Republic, the weakness of which eventually gave rise to Hitler. You can not create a democracy in a place with no democrats. It's like the old Communist idea of "we'll force you to be free." People in Iraq identify themselves along family/tribal, religious, and racial lines. Not national lines. In short, we had better be careful that we don't create an opportunity for a bigger monster than Saddam!
So what about breaking the country back up into its 3 parts again? Can't do that, because a free Kurdish state would destabilize Iran and Turkey which both also have large Kurdish regions. This could plunge the whole Middle East into further chaos.
Why not go ahead and just pull out? Massive civil war would be a certainty - and it would be our fault for leaving a power vacuum.
The only way to make it all work is to try and make the people of Iraq think like Westerners. Change them on a fundamental level. This would be difficult if not impossible, even if it were a morally sound thing to do. Wipe out their culture and societal structure, replace it with ours, and occupy the country unti lIraqis can be Westerners without anyone holding them at gunpoint. This, in essence, would be an exact repeat of what the British and French attempted in the Middle East after WWI and what the Russians (and later the Chinese) successfully, but very bloodily accomplished after the Bolshevik revolution.
So it's a messed up scenario. A real catch-22. Anybody got ideas about this?
:o :o :o
Let's hear em!!