Firstly, I am going to say that maybe, just maybe, some people may be offended by this!
And if mods lock it, I'm never going to let them hear the end of it, I'm just exercising my write of free expression here.

Bravetree, please don't take offense to this, if you have something to say, say it. Everyone else, don't let this turn into a flame war, because THEN it's alright to lock it.

Now, if you are a hard-core bravetree supporter, click BACK now.
REMEMBER! I'm just ranting! Letting out some steam, you could say. I've had a bad week, so don't take this seriousely if you don't want to. It's just how I feel. If you have a problem with it, I'll sic Michael Moore on you.
---

MODDING
Modding is an extremely touchy topic in the community. Everyone wants/likes to mod. Yet bravetree says "no, nope, you ain't getting any support from us!"
Firstly, I would like to make something clear. This game was made in TORQUE. Torque games get MODDED. That's one of the biggest selling points.
And here's Bravetree complaining about lower income and less profits, yet they aren't offering modding support! Many other game companies welcome modding. Go download Dark Horizons. Have some FUN with modding, and get some kudos from the producers.

MODERATION
These forums are a spam-poster's heaven. There are mods, but they don't seem to be around half the time. Bravetree staff is supposed to be able to moderate, but check out these stats:

Pokemalo (Joe M.) - 144 posts, 4 forum topics. (Not bad, really.)
Dan MacDonald - 61 posts, 4 forum topics.
Shark (Clark F.) - He weighs in with a WHOPPING 9 posts and 0 forum topics!

Wow, that's what I call moderation. Of course, there are other moderators, but they spend too much time in the leagues forum to track down the idiots.

INTERMISSION - Pissed off yet? Then click away.

TT 2
Wow, bravetree must really care about their customers to already talk about a sequel! Well, it doesn't seem that way. They've already said that they "don't really care about the seasoned players, and care more about the new players that are giving us money".
So who's to say they aren't just going to shut down the whole "ThinkTanks Operation" once they exceed the limits on their Torque Indy License?

And finally........ THE COMMUNITY

Bravetree, this section is aimed directly at you. Everytime we create a server, you get money. (More servers = more purchase appeal) Everytime we create a good mod, you get money. (Customization = more purchase appeal) Every time we say "gg", you get money. (Good sportsmanship = more purchase appeal)
Everytime somone posts a thread, whether like this, or different, YOU GET MONEY. (Sence of community = MORE PURCHASE APPEAL)

It's the players that have been playing for a long time is what's keeping you alive Bravetree. Why not give a little back?

Annnnnnnd, CUT!
I'm gonna sit back and watch all the amusing replies that flood in on this one. Bravetree, if you have retaliation for this one, be my guest! If that retaliation means locking it, or silencing me, for shame .

Nathan,

Half of the problems with modders is that they like to keep everything tight to themselves. Open source is the way of the future!!! Anyone who obstructs it should be stoned...

SK

I think those are good points nathan but I do think modders should share more of the simple stuff, not necessarily there personel special secrets for modding but the stuff for the noobs who want to get started.

Last edited: Monday, September 06, 2004 at 1:24:17 AM

Revel,

If all the "so-called" secrets were shared, then someone might develop that idea to come up with something better. I can understand why someone would hold to their "so-called" secrets, but look at Dash. He is a fan of open source, as a result there are more modders now, because we know how to do it, and by modding I don't mean just tampering with existing maps, but also develop new maps, just like he did.

SK

Very...interesting. You have a point Nathan©. Now I feel like going on a rant! I'll just take it out on Mark... XD

I plead the 5th

Well I gave up on TT2.o a long time ago :(
I wouldn't mind giving $ to anyone coming with an updated version including several of the improvements mentioned in PTT threads and GG's forum. %)

I am incapable of pleading the 5th. ;)

Pardon me if I ramble, for I don't have the time to make this all organized. First off, this website is not made or maintained by BraveTree. GarageGames, a distributer of TT, was the original forum site. However, there was NO moderation in the forums. When things started to become truly ugly, the biggest ThinkTank addict around, -z-, decided to make his own website and forums. Thus Planet ThinkTanks was born. Z is just another player who has exceptional skills and dedication to the game. He gave the developers Mod status as a courtesy, but it was never their job to act as forum moderators. The other moderators are just friends of Z who volunteer a little time to try to keep things from falling apart like they did at GarageGames. Nobody is getting paid to patrol the forums.

Modding. I can't find the thread right now, but I believe the main reason for not releasing all the Modding tools and instructions is that they didn't want potential customers to get frustrated from joining modified servers that either banned Demos are abused them. It's a custom sentiment that most personal server owners usually don't want to play against demos. There is also the issue of confusing newbs with servers that have highly modified physics or rules. They didn't want to lock newbs out of personal servers, because then it would be likely that a newb would never be able to join a game that everyone else is in. In other words, it was for the sake of the new guy so they may get another registered customer. Understand, I'm not sure if I got their sentiment exactly right.

Personally, I think it was a mistake. Newbs don't register for games that look like they are dying. However, the difficulty in modding TT, and the lack of new maps from BraveTree has caused the game to become mostly stale in the standard servers, so many people have moved on. We have a small core of hardcore players who join regularly, but any newb who tries that game will be squished like a bug. Had modding been easier, I think more people would've stayed, and there would be more newbs coming in to check out the game that still makes the news.

Actually, Bravetree made no official comment about ThinkTank 2. It's just something that we hope for. In any case, I hope the next game is subscription based. Then they'll have reason to take care of the vets, and we won't have to worry about the game dying due to a lack of new blood. The current ThinkTanks is probably already end-of-life, since I usually just see regulars and few newbs.

What do I want from Bravetree? Here ya go:
(1) Subscription service. Cheap entry to bring in the new guns, but the money will keep coming from the vets to keep it alive. Something like $10 first month, $5 for every month after that.
(2) Provide a forum with moderators that are paid with free TT subscription. With such payment, they are expected to perform accordingly.
(3) Provide modding and admin tools. You can charge an extra flat fee for these, if you like. Variety of maps and game-styles is essential if you want to keep bringing in that monthly money.
(4) Registered name server tied to a verified email address. You want a second name? That's another subscription! You want to change your name every month? You'll be paying the initiation fee every month. Your forum name will match your battlefield name. Say bye-bye to anonymous wankers that chase good players away.
(5) Demo players can play for the first month free. However, they will not be able to enter personal servers that block Demo users or team games. The 15minute limit will be used. Also, they can only post 3 messages a day on the forums. Once the month is up, they have to subscribe. I suppose its possible for them to get another email address to create another Demo account, so its best to make sure that the TT Game has a hidden preference to show that it has already used up a Demo license.
(6) Hold competitions with prizes. Perhaps a copy of the modding tools or to their next game. Post the victors on the forum site to boost the winners' egos.
(7) Hold "Best Map/Mod" contests. Winner gets their map posted to one of the Shockwave or Homelan servers for all to use.

There, that should do it. As I see it, that would be the makings of a long-term success. Any comments?

Oh, good post, by the way, Nathan! I'm a BraveTree supporter, but its natural(and proper) to always want more!

- Bomb…James Bomb

Thanks for the replies everyone, I've read every word.

Firstly, a subscription service probably wouldn't go over well, that's mainly reserved for MMORPG's.
Here is my idea to eliminate that:

PAY FOR EACH NAME YOU USE.

Every additional name requires another "name license". You name you choose there is transferred over to the forums also, with real time stat tracking in every server, modded or not. (Seperate, of course)
This is just like Dark Horizons. That's why it's 5 bucks more than ThinkTanks. :)

Each name license is also allowed to be changed ONCE, in case you make a spelling error. Clans you join will automaticly be added to your name (optional) and profile, with no need for another license. You can't edit this, however.

What do you think about that? Let me know.

The only problem with a flat fee on server-based games is that the game dies once you only have veterans and few newbies have appeared. After a certain amount of time, those who will look into the game have either bought it or moved on. ONce the flow of money stops, support ends as the developers turn their resources to something that is still paying the bills. Also, many said they would not pay $20 for TT based on the short period of time they tried it. Well how about $9? You know, give a hit for cheap, real 'em in, then watch them desperately feed their addiction! :P This game is closer to an MMORPG then you might think, since there is an unusual amount of interaction in TT versus most other network 1st-person shooters.

Perhaps we could wave the subscription fee for those that host a useable server for a minimum amount of time per week? This will encourage more custom servers.

Servers are a continuous money drain. With a flat purchase, it is only a matter of time until the plug is pulled. We are slowly approaching the point where either BraveTree puts out TT2 so that a new wave of money comes in, or the servers start dropping and getting applied to some other game.

- Bomb …James Bomb

Then they'd be sued by the 56kers. XD

If they came out with TT2 I would look to see if its better and if it was I would buy it XD

I agree with EVERYTHING!

Im gonna wait til' I see PokeMalo's name on this thread. :)

Well I see Nathan's side but I also see JB side to this ! It would be nice if they did a lot of things but it all takes time and money ! Shoot when I first came to PTT under a old name, most of the options where not even up then they were still being worked on or created ! A lot has changed since then and yes there are some things still not working but in time I hope they will with our support and donations! B)

If you're this engrossed by a cartoon tank game then I feel you need to get outside a lot more. In fact, you should toss your computer in the trash and go out for a nice game of freeze tag.

P.S. If you know so much about the subject develop your own game and administer it they way you choose. Until then zip it.

Last edited: Monday, September 06, 2004 at 1:24:10 PM

Hey guys,

Criticism welcomed. You can think whatever you want about us. We want to support the community and ThinkTanks 2.0 and integration of fixes in 1.2 are in the works, just going slowly. I know we have said this before, but I will say it again.

We are small. We have just recently brought on 3 new people. A HUGE risk for us, as we are barely getting by as it is. Up until 2 months ago, BraveTree was 2 people (mike had to take another job) and a good portion of the two remaining owners time was taken up doing contract work to get money in the bank so that we could live in order to stay around and get back to game development.

So, to address the points directly:

1. Modding. [/b] If we had some features in the game so that new users would have control of what they see first, we would encourage modding. We did not have the time to put this into the first version, so we have no way of letting the end user know that they are joining a modded game. As we want people new to the game (and having their first experience with our products) to have a good impression of us and not run away when they see our name, we want to ensure a quality experience. No offense to the modders, but most of the mods suck both in terms of art direction and game play. I don't want to dispute this.. As it is just my opinion. Regarding sales, we have not seen a huge surge in sales due to modding.. But we have seen a large increase in the number of emails and phone calls we get regarding mods. Answering questions takes time. So, for it being 'unsupported'.. We just don't have enough time in the day to answer questions to help people fix what they have borked.

Adding the ability for people to toggle mod visibility on/off is not trivial.. And it will require everyone to ungrade. We will have to upgrade the servers.. And this will , for a time, split the community. Our experience has driven the point home that doign this without a lot of thought put into how to transtion is instant death to an online game. It costs to switch over, and if it splits and fragments the community.. We have blown it and cannot undo the damage.

When we have the infrastructure to support modding, we will actively encourage it. Right now we do not have that infrastructure (we are working slowly to create chunks of the technology to support it).. Until that infrastructrue exists.. Modding is not helping us, it is hurting us. You can argue all you want how it 'should' help us, but the sales numbers don't bear it out.

Here is a little piece of information. Go to GarageGames, and click on the products bar. The games in that list are sorted in order of # of sales(top to bottom). Note where we are on the list. For now, we will continue to take our own advice on business.

Moderation: Give us a break.. It is impossible to keep up on everything that goes on here. I do my best. I no longer even post witty replies or edit peoples posts (as I have done in the past).. I just delete. You don't even see what we delete, and we do let a good bit of stupidity go on because it is fun, it binds the community together against common foes (trolls) and it keeps things lively and exciting. We walk a fine line here between being the iron fist and being perceived as ignoring what is going on. You want to help? Don't respond to troll posts. I get on here to check PTT. I look at unread posts, and I see 2-3 pages of posts. Sorry, I can't read them all. Do your part by keeping the noise level down so that when I come here I actually try to read them all rather then just marking all as read and letting the 'hot' topics rise to the top the next time I check. What is it you want? More moderation? More moderators? Who should they be? Make some suggestions.. Also, note that 56K lagman is a hairs breath away from becoming an 'official' bravetree member. Please add his stats to the ones posted above.

thinktanks 2 We are not going to shut down the whole opertation when we exceed the 'indie' license of TGE. One, because we are not close to the limit, 2, we can't talk about what is going on behind the scenes. And the statement above about 'we only care about the $$ is a mischaracterization of my statements. Here is the correct version of what we have said.

We make sales to new users, not to seasoned players. In order to stay in business, we need to sell to the new player. It may suck, but that is the harsh reality of the situation. The hardcore old timers posting here represent less than 10% of the ThinkTanks user base. If we could afford to support only the small but vocal majority, we would. We can't at this time.

We are reading what people are saying above. Would you find the switch to a subsciption based game agreeable? This would changethe situation drastically as then we would respond to the paying customer in order to generate revenue.. Instead of having to seek out new customers.

Note that the infrastructure to support such an endevour is not easy, or cheap. It costs money to run a subscription based game. If the numbers are not high (in terms of number of subscribers) then the product becomes a money losing proposition.

You can hate us if you want.. If the amount of support we are giving to thinktanks is not enough for you.. All we can say is.. We are sorry. We are working to maintain stability with the company in order that we can support ThinkTanks and grow the franchise. We cannot extend the game if we are not around. If it is not going where you want, all we can do is say.. Sorry, we just don't have the resources at this time to support the game in the way you want us to support it. ThinkTanks is a victim of it's own success. Big enough to require some TLC in terms of active management.. Not enough to be a run away success and hire a full time community managment person. RIght now the people posting here on the forums are the ones making the art and writing the code.

SO..

Yes, the community aspect of ThinkTanks helps... Having more servers helping is questionable in terms of the help, as we have not seen an increase in sales because of it (we have gotten support emails about slow servers with strange names and low pings) modding has not increased sales.. But it has added support costs (our time). The good sportsmanship helps.. And we want to encourage that you continue it, but cut us some slack please.

I personally started this company and lived for 2 years of the money that my wife and I had been slamming away for 2 years to buy a house. That money is gone. I now have a 20 month old daughter and I need to keep the money rolling in to keep a roof over her head and keep her fed. This is not a game for me. This business is my life. We are doing the best we can and making the best decisions we can to grow the game and stay around.

I honestly don't have the time to write an essay on the business of making games or how business works. Keep on criticizing.. It is valuable to us in terms of how we choose our direction. I will say that the points posted above are a simplistic analysis of a situation that is far more complex than presented. All the 'little' things y'all are asking for are not so little. We ARE working on these things.. Some as parts of other technology for other games in the works.. Some as part of the backbone for ThinkTanks 2.

@ James, thanks for the comments.. Some of the things we have 'on the table' for future releases and future games are similar to waht you have mentioned.. Pay to play, private 'subscription' services.. Etc.. And this way it does make it so the value to the established customer is related to the money we are making off the game.

This situation is difficult for us as these features are complcated by the fact that we are distribution on multiple channels... All with their own authentication and player management schemes, some of which forbid linking to sites or servers not hosted by the distributor. In all, a deployment of the new version is 17 builds on multiple platforms, all of which must be rolled out and synced together. Server upgrades (which we don't have direct access to).. It is a pain in the butt guys.. Weeks of work to DEPLOY... Again, we are working on solutions to change this.. It is a big job. We are attempting to do what big game companies with big bucks and big teams try (and fail) to do all the time.

Keep the criticism flowing. We really do want to hear it. I would appreciate that in this discussion people would make the effort not to trivialize all the features that are being requested and actions we should undertake. Expending a man month on a project that y'all 'think' will help.. And does not increase sales, would mean dire straights for us, and I certainly don't want to have to run off and work for another company in order to make ends meet and have ThinkTanks become abandonware.

Once again Joe, bravo on all the hard work you've put into this game and essentially your life. Even as someone who rarely ever plays it anymore, I can appreciate the story put out above.

Honestly, the only thing I'd like to see happen to TT is a new version at some point. And for that new version to have lots of goodies. I won't go into it all, because it's been hashed out in countless other threads. Even if I never played it again, I'd still like to see this game go on and succeed. As it is now, I see that it's dying a slow death due to entropy.

I hope some changes to spark new interest come along soon before it's too late.

Once again I throw my hat in the ring, to be a Moderator B)

Memo to the petitioners above:
These guys aren't doing this for shits and giggles. When there is news, when they have been able to complete something that they are working on, they will tell us. Something tells me that they are not doing nothing, and that until there is news FROM them, complaining TO them isn't going to get anything OUTA them...
so let them work.

Hoo wow, thanks for stopping by Pacemalo! Yah, I guess the illogical ambitious side of me pines for some way to make Modding an advantage to the bottom line. I have seen games where Modding was quite successful (Bungie's Myth 2 is probably the best example...ever....). I can see that the critical point here is that the new user MUST be able to play regular games without having to already know which servers are standard. Myth had the advantage that modded games required that you had the mod installed on your system already and would list the mod on the server menu. Errrrr....of course, my whole argument just got blown out of the water since I just remembered they had to sell themselves to Microsoft. :( Heh, you make the call.

Well, I'm glad to hear that TT2 is in the works! I'll just shut up and wait in anticipation! ;)

@LoneWolf: Only one has the power to knight thee, but alas, he is nowhere to be found lately.

- Bomb…James Bomb

Me too. The sad truth of it is tht this starts to happen only after you have acheived critical mass. Which is something that ThinkTanks has not done. Until it does reach critical mass, the modding is more of a drag and support nightmare that costs us money AND potential sales.

Thanks for replying Joe, I read your whole post, and I can see where you're coming from on this one.
Firstly, I do not "hate you", as you implied in the post. And, judging by the reply, you took great offense to my post. And for that, I'm sorry.

I understand that you're a hard working company, but you kind of proved my point in your reply. ThinkTanks is number one on Garage Games. That's true, so shouldn't you work hard to keep it number one? Catering to the "veterans" will help keep the game active, enjoyable, and playable.
I know I bought the game because of the veterans. I wanted to be as good as them, so I played, and played, and finally gave in and bought the game. It sure seemed getting that DEMO tag off my name boosted my performance.

At the time that modding was still sort of hidden, and not really known about, (before position grabber and modwizard, even before -z- existed, I belive :) ) I was modding.
Once the first few people started modding, it was like a chain reaction. More and more people came. More and more servers with mods were launched.

It added a really good REPLAYABILITY value to the game. Whether the mods are bad or not, it's still interesting to see something different.

In this example, let's use Orbz. (Made by 21-6 Productions) They don't support modding, but they are still releasing new maps. And guess what? They have an arcade game and a handheld. That's what I call growth.
And when did they start to grow? After modding hit the community. It all started when Wingman started up http://www.gamingprojects.com . Suddenly sales boosted, and more and more great maps came out.

So, my point is, that ignoring the veteran players just results in people leaving, the community shrinking, and, god forbid, dying.

Point Two

You said that 56k lag man is close to becoming an official bravetree member. Why? Because he can mod good! That's what I don't understand. The people who can sort of mod are shunned (I, for one), but the people who can mod like there's no tomorrow are rewarded with.CS files, further improving their modding.
Why is that? Seems kind of hypocritical to me.

All I want is an answer to that question. That's all I'm looking for.

And again, thanks for the reply.

Last edited: Monday, September 06, 2004 at 6:04:06 PM

@ JB
I know, I was just offering again
@ PokeMalo
Is there any way one of you guys can just take about 5 minutes of your time to check on Z ? We are going into are third week now with no Z and to be honest I am very worried about The Z man. Even if its just to tell us he is all right and he is tied up on a nother project ! Thank you for what ever you can do on this ! :[

@PokeMalo
I see you are very concerned about making a profit to keep yourself alive. In the next version, I think it would be a good idea to have to pay for "modwizard TT2", and some other scripts that might improve the quality of gameplay. Perhaps Bravetree could comeout with different versions of Modwizard(or any other scripts) about every year and a half, which might increase profit quite alot. Dont listen to my words with out thinking, for I am only 12. XD

Intresting stuff but the stuff a bout paying extra for al that stuff and the scpctrion service me no likey not all of us have jobs you know if they are all about money I dont know I want to be a part of this any more mabe il leav too I know wat u brave tree ppl r thinking "good one less moder to down our sales" well did you for get about wat nate talked about and I qote

Well guess what I create servers and good mods all the time I poast all the time AND ONCE AGIN I SAY GG ALL THE TIME
so would I be hurting you or helping you if I left I mean think about it

Robodude (c) B)

Last edited: Monday, September 06, 2004 at 7:42:14 PM

Ok mabe I was a little harsh I aplogize for that I under stand you are just trying to make a living and make your way in life and I think every one needs to think about that :[

Nathan,

I understand what you are saying.. In terms of growth on different distributions, you can take a look at the company that ported orbz to the tapwave and then complain about our lack of movement in these areas. In this particular instance.. I introduced Bill and ExtremeAI to Justin at 21-6. 21-6 is physically closert to extremeAI, and the interface issues with thinktanks (turrets, etc..) made the decision for extreme ai to do orbz first an absolute no brainer decision for everyone involved.

We considered the arcade as well, and the particalar deal with the Flex Arcade deal was that it would have required a lot of effort on our part to make the single player part of the game more robust. Orbz already has a strong sinlge player game.. We do not. We passed on this opportunity to focus on other things.

In terms of the modding.. Orbz may have seen a big boost in sales with the advent of modding. We have not had that boost. We have seen a boost in support.. We have not seen a boost in sales. I hear what you are saying, but you are sounding like a broken record. Yeah, modding should help sales. It does not appear to be, for us, at this point in time. It may indirectly affect sales, but it is not bringing enough in the way of a boost to justify focusing on it as our core business.

It may be interesting to you to see new things.. To someone playing the demo for the first time.. It is probably less interesting than the game we actually produced, and as a business owner that is attempting to make a first impression on someone with our product.. It is not all that interesting to me to have that experience (the first interaction with us) be out of our control.

I am not saying modding is hurting us.. And we don't want people to leave.. Go ahead and mod. I can keep saying this until I am blue in the face. I know everyone thinks that all this modding is helping us a great deal.. It is not. It really is not affecting sales. Every time you make a server or post a mod.. We do not get money. Ever time you host a server or post a mod, what you are doing is just that.. Making a server and hosting a mod. Most of the mods are on such lousy connections that they are at the bottom of the server lists. Most don't even see them (unless they are looking for them)..

We do not only care about money. We care about this game. In order to care about this game, we need to stay around..(as in, pay the bills).. In order to pay the bills, we have to sell the game. In order to sell the game, we need to attract new users.

Again, I know that a lot of people would like to think that all the activities they are undertaking are helping us and that we would be helping our sales by catering to the veterans. Our sales data, for this particalar game, does not seem to indicate that this is the case. I hear and understand what y'all are saying.. But seems like you are not hearing me. We do not want users to leave.. We ARE working on making the game better.. BUT.. The features y'all want are NOT the features that are making the game sell well.

In terms of Mark (lagman).. He is a friend of mine from WAY before BraveTree or ThinkTanks were even an idea. He is a thinktanks player, but first and foremost.. He is a really good artist. He has the skills, he is in town.. It just makes sense. Note that we are bringing him on as an artist and animator (and not a scriptor).. The fact that he does have the capacity to script is a bonus to us.. Not the reason we want him to work with us.

In terms of keeping ThinkTanks #1 on GarageGames.. We would like it to reamin the #1 seller.. But we can't spend a lot of energy to obtain a badge that is little more than bragging rights. We need to make a living.

I know that you think that catering to the vetrans will make it new and shiny and vibrant. What I think you fail to realize is that the veterans make up less thatn 10% of the user base.. And that to the new user, the game is 'new'.

If we don't act quickly enough.. And add enough to keep users interested.. They will leave and never try our games again. If this is the case, then we will suffer for it. It is unfortunate, but there is not a whole lot we can do about it. If we had taken the route of adding in all the requested features and made that our top priority, I can assure you that we would not be around today, and the point would be moot.

Again, I don't have the time to explain the complexity of the game business. What everyone thinks should be the case is not necessarily so.

On -Z-..

He has done this before.. He is either on vacation. Is doing some contract work. Or his macaw chewed up his router again. We are not worried (yet)....

Not offended... But this same topic coming up in the same way with the same points being made is just starting to get annoying.. I am not saying things I have not said before. I am repeating our stance on all these issues. It seems like every month someone has to stir up a hornets nest and try to get everyone worked up about all this.. And what does it get? Well.. Another half a day of productivity lost as I respond to this 'fire' instead of getting productive work done. Seeing as how a few of us are taking labor day off.. We are now working at 50% productivity today (me spending time here and not working on other things).. If I spend a lot of time here trying to hold everyones hands.. Things are not getting done.. If we get head down to try to get work done. We are abandoning thinktanks.. Damned if we do, damned if we don't...

Last edited: Monday, September 06, 2004 at 8:07:27 PM

Honestly.. In the grand scheme of things.. In truth. It would do neither. This is not meant as an insult at all.. It is just a fact. We appreciate the effort..and we would like you to continue.. But if you have to leave or stop because of anyone's perceived lack of support for what we are (or in this case, are not) doing.. Then do what you must. I want people to play the game.. We cannot put oursleves out of business because of the perception by a few that we are not doing enough.

Last edited: Monday, September 06, 2004 at 8:14:46 PM

^ Thank you for the Note on Z B)

Just wanted to add here that I have always attempted to be as honest as I can be here.. No rah rah speeches.. No false promises.. No sugar coating. I try to tell it like it is and be as brutally honest as I can about things. If it rubs some of you the wrong way. I apologize. It is in my nature, that out of respect that all of you are worth the truth and not a bunch of empty wind. So.. Keep this in mind a you read my responses..

Joe,

I am curious to know as to why BraveTree doens't open source some of the stuff so that the community may help you guys out. Once an idea has been finalized you guys can tweek it to make it how you guys really wanted. I think that this approach my take some of the labourious work behind expanding TT and creating TT² .

SK

@serialkilla,

We kind of tired that a long time ago, but what we found is that more time was spent managing the other developers.. Less actual production was getting done. What we did get from contributors was hit and miss.. Most was redone before we shipped.

It is just faster for us to leave the source closed and keep it closed. Again, it would appear that things would go faster if more people were involved.. We thought so to. It did not in reality end up working that way. We have learned our lesson..

We have opened up the source repository to a few people that we trust..and this is to help them with their projects.. Not so much for us to get assitance with ours.

The other reason is that ThinkTanks was made with the Torque Game Engine.. Which requires a license to have access to the source code. We could not open source it to anyone.. The individual in question would have to be a TGE licensee.. And add to that , they would need to have access to most of the other products and pieces of middleware sold on GarageGames (TSE, lighting pack, etc..) as most of the code exists in our repository.

A note that while ThinkTanks was made with the Torque.. It is not stock Torque.. Shapebase was removed, the majority of the scripting conventions do not apply, the shape construction is altered to work with many of the hooks we put in, the terrain, collision, physics. Control input etc.. Are all custom.

The Torque Game Engine is pretty complex.. Soem 400K lines of source code.. It takes a year or so for even experienced developers to get up to speed on how to work with it..

We are pretty open to working with others though.. If someone can demonstrate the ability to add value to our products (while not slowing down production) then we would be very happy to start the dicussion and begin the phase of trust building that would accompany opneing up the repository.

Hey, Poke, shouldn't you be writing some TT2 code instead of appeasing all of us whiners? ;)

From my minimal experience, open-source only works when the company can make money by charging for tech-support. Doesn't work real well for a video game. Also, an unexpected number of man-hours is required in just filtering useful additions from wonky hacks. Should we add this? Wait, it conflicts with this. DOes everyone want this feature, or is it possible to add it as an option without causing imbalance? It's a royal pain. Personally, I think TT needs to stay closed.

I suppose the only way to make modding at least inconsequential to BraveTree would be to have all modded maps display a warning that "This is a modified map on a private server, and Bravetree can not provide any technical support for any difficulties on this server." As for the Modders asking for support, we are either going to have to settle with figuring it out on our own, or we should expect to have to pay for any mod-kit or modding technical support.

Just as long as modding is POSSIBLE, I'll be happy. You can turn a blind eye and let us slog it through ourselves, but at least leave the door open.

As a side-note, I'd just like to mention that many games were successful without a strong single-player option (like Unreal Tournament). Trying to enhance the solo game would be a waste of funds, if you ask me. I got bored of the solo game in 3 days. Never did finish it (if there is an ending.)

Anyhow, I'll let you get back to work. Thanks for update, PokeMalo!

- Bomb…James Bomb

All in good time.. Eventual plans are for user toggleable levels of mod visibility (art only, rules only, art and rules, etc..) with the default to off.. Editors either in game or for sales (with support) and private team forums.. Persistent stats tracking for teams.. Team colors, configurable on website that update automatically in game.. User rating systems for mods (ala Slashdot).. On demand pay to play fast servers (launched from the commnunity site) as well as subsciption based 'speical' status with demo bumping, private forums, and blocks of private time on fast servers for subscribers..

Big plans, lots of back end server stuff.. Lots of testing, lots of problems to solve.. Step by step.. We will get there. The idea is not just to make it possible.. But to have a comprehensive structure that supports it. Much of this is why there is a perception that we are doign nothing. We are not going to staple on a hastily implement solution that is going to bite us in the ass in 3 months.. We know what we want.. We are working toward it, and eventually, someday, it will be done.

For now.. We are saying.. Do it. Just don't make a big mess and don't drown us in support requests. As long as the roof is not caving in... We will pretty much leave y'all to your own devices.

Bueno, get back to work :).

Wow. :o :) :P

Whoa....I'm happy! ;)
- Bomb…James Bomb

Sounds great ! Feels like its X-Mas time. I don't want to wait for it ! :P

@pokemalo
I am not a modder nor do I enjoy the mods very much but I do enjoy the game alot. I think you guys have done a good job and I just wanted to say I appreciate your efforts. I realize these things take time and thats ok. Keep up the good work.

@all
if you think about the way this game is marketed and how it came to be then an arguement can be made that the honus on the future success of tt falls on its current members. If you like it then you should talk it up and bring more players in. More new players = more money for bravetree = less contract work for the creators = more time for development = faster new releases/updates = happy tt community!

I have seen some players add links to there websites about tt or create websites of there own dedicated to tt. This is good I think and helps to get the game out there. Also, there are others that actively take new players under their wing to help them understand the game better. Bravetree cannot do this but we can. The game itself is fun but it becomes extraordinary when the community is added. If you dont want tt to die you may be better off considering what you can do to help it rather than what bravetree can do.

Uhh, do we gotta PAY for TT2 or does our old REG. Key work for it.. :o

@ All

Well, In online games this big, TT hasn't really been around for so long, It just seems like forever because we're all on, everyday. Sure, bravetree doesn't have any support, and probably wont even MAKE a tt2 unless a huge broadcast comes on about it and makes bill gates wanna play.

Cross your fingers.

-UF

@Tankster: I don't think I have EVER seen a game where a full-point upgrade was free (unless it was subscription-based). No free lunches, and BraveTree has to pay the bills. Besides, I feel I already got my $20 worth just from the 1st version!

What I am most curious about: how will they manage the servers during the period where some are buying TT2, and others decide to stay with TT1? Running two games on a server is a heavy load, so its going to be interesting to see how they manage the transition for all their different distributors.

(no need to answer, PokeMalo, get back to work! <smirk>)

- Bomb…James Bomb

As for me, the only mod I've really enjoyed was KBC's mountain scrum. There were a few other new maps up there for awhile, but I haven't seem them lately. That's the sort of thing I'm really interested in. There are some other cool features in TT that I'd like to see, but I'm not leaving any time soon just because they're not here. I mean, I'm still trying to learn how to aim effectively so adding sometime at this stage is just going to set me back. ;)

I do want to come out swinging for the guys at Bravetree. Its a creative, passionate, business to them and while there's a lot of things I'm sure they'd like to develop for the game, they've got to make a living at it as well. So all of their choices have to come down to "is it a viable business decision?".

With that said, I don't see myself paying a monthly subscription to access this forum. I might pay to play on-line, but then I might take Rogue's advice and go outside and play flag football with my son. (1st game's in two days!)

Cool Mods (so you know):

Capture the Flag (-z-)
Survivor (-z-)
Campfire Mod (hanging around the goal too long causes death). (-z-)
Slugland (Tank attributes altered to make all 3 tanks viable choices for scrumming). (slugthog)
^ This level also has the "Bog" we all love and fear!
Blender Level (Ribbit! Ribbit!) (slugthog)
Mountain Scrum (Giant world with turbo tanks!) (KBC)
Ammo-less after Cliff-dive mod (slugthog).
No Goal-spawns (-z-)
Transporter Ammo Gates (? Can't remember)
Team Scrum against a flood of UFOs (??? Who made that? Dang, that was fun.)

There are many I'm forgetting or haven't had a chance to play. As PokeMalo said, it's confusing for newbs, but the cat's meow for the veterans! The biggest problem with all the Mods is that most of the artists lack the bandwidth to host it properly.

I'm not a programmer of network protocols, so I have NO idea of the feasibility of this. Imagine if there was a server that acted as the brawn for a mod. For instance, the first tank joins the server and selects his modded level. The server then hosts that map for 1 or 2 games. People could submit levels to the queue. This idea would need a lot of polishing to make it work (TT3?). The Myth servers were like that. Find an empty slot, host your map, once enough people joined, you'd start the game. It was rather neat.

- Bomb…James Bomb

Heres an idea for your problem about new demo players seeing the mods and thinking yuck I dont want to buy this look how badly its put to geatther and how long it took to load
put a timmer on it to lock the "mods" make it wait till they have been playing for a while and get usted to it then let them acess the mods but this would probly require a is this a mod prefence in the prefs file
or you could make it come up with a message befor they enter it saying its a mod it is not part of the orignal game if it sux plez dont blame breve tree blame the hoast XD

Those are some things you guys at brave tree might be a ble to do in a rush right?

Hey james y arent any of my mods on there :o o wait all my good mods havent been relesed yet oops never mind my scripts are curently better than my mods (well the modds that any one has seen :) )

O and to fix your hoasting problem I can host mods for ppl I usaly hace a ping some where between 10 and 25 %) XD :) that is if you trust me with your art or junk or wat every it is

Oh yah brave tree isnt geting any money wit ppl giving out regestration codes I wont say any names it was a long time ago though wen I was still a demo and the game was new moding was just catching on I have to say I gave out my regestration code ONCE im sory I will never do it agin I was only trying to help some one out plez dont ban me from the master server or any thing it was a long time ago I just thought I would confess since the subject was up I am honestly sory I wasnt thinking about how it was hurting you guys but you should note quite a few ppl got the game free by finnding the code on the net or somtin , that might b somthing that making you guys loose money :( :[ :[

Last edited: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 at 6:50:12 PM

Again, Joe (hope you don't mind me calling you that), or, Mr. Marushak ;) , thanks again for your reply. Seems over night it rocketed up to so many posts, and it took me a long time to sift through it all. I did read all the posts I deemed "important", however. XD

About me being like a broken record, I will keep pushing it and pushing it untill you answer my question, or actually come out and say "I won't answer that.". But thanks for answering it.

Labour day is over, now get back to work, I already have. :)

@Pokemalo,

You da man! I have the utmost respect for you and what you have created and trust your judgment. I can't believe all the fun I've had for $20. Thank you and keep it up as long as you and your family can afford to. You have really created something special.

-Reagent X