Does anyone really believe that? Who here believes it?

Memphis. I said if you don't believe one part of the bible why do you believe the other parts are true? Genesis is a historically written book in the bible. I don't know why you refuse to believe it.
http://icr.org/

Read what I wrote J.

Hugo,

The whole 6000 years thing is simply an estimation based upon generational data in the Old Testament. :) you can poke so many holes in the calculation it is not even funny.

Jacob,
I have a nice bridge over here that I will sell you. It already has tollbooths and everything. Only a $1000. Send me the money via paypal and I will give you the dead.

Jacob, I understand you're only 14, but you seem extremely indoctrinated. The Christian faith taken literaly is very childish and you better snap out of it. It probably was a bummer when you learned Santa didn't exist, but you finally realized that the gifts came from a much closer and stronger affective bond, your parents. Same goes with your religion, you'll lose a lunatic fantasy but not God, you'll just come to know that he's not who you thought he was.

Last edited: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 at 6:06:35 PM

Actually my parents didn't lie to me about Santa, they aren't like that. And Jesus says be childlike. And Stan, I don't think of a theory and squeeze God through the holes. I see the world and say God must have made this. And I research and say that must be the right theory. Its not like the Rapid Decay Theory correctly predicted the magnetic fields of the plants we can get to and correctly predicted Voyagers path and wasn't off by a factor of 100,000. And the Bible fits with the Bible when taken literally. When it isn't then you have to struggle and say God must have just started evolution. Then he told Moses a bunch of lies on mount Sinai.

Dont get to pumped J...

No one have real answers here just attacks on other
religions.

For being a guru on religion it is easy to dissect and reason
why you should'nt believe in certian religions.

It is a lot harder to pactice what you may think is truth.

We are all childish spiritually speaking.

Just becuase one may stumble upon some text and have
an epiphany only means he has found what he was looking
for.

It doesnt mean he is more right than anyone else who have
found their answer.

Because there is only one answer.

In the end only god knows what that is.

We can just pretend we know until the day he tells us.

To even suggest that our reality is the same as god's
reality is very very child like...

(a wise man that follows any religion does not follow blindly.)

^^ and I'm prowd of my parents for also not doing so. Thank you Jacob for holding firm on your beliefs. I have never met such a strong 14 year old when it came to religion. I must say, you're bold and I'm prowd of it (I'm sure the Man upstairs is, too.) :) ! That's a feature sometimes I fail to uphold.

Stan, you better not count your chickens before they hatch. So many people these days have totally grown ignorant of faith. If you actually read your Bible, you'd realize who the lunatics were. In fact, it is no coincidence that all that oil is under the middle east. I'm convinced. The Bible states that in the end times, there will be wars and rumors of wars. This war in Iraq was all a cover-up in my mind. We never went over there to seemingly "destroy the weapons of mass destruction". That definitely surfaced later in Bush's run as president. This is mostly all over oil. They've got it, and lots of it. Hey, what a coincidence it all ended up over there. And why are all the Muslim people angry with us? What caused them to plot to destroy the trade centers in NY? Why are they in constant quarrels with us? They hate us! Face the facts. One of our biggest allies are the Jewish people. The Bible dates the family feud between the two way back in Abraham's time. I could go on and on with this. My point is, the more you read your Bible, the more the world begins to "open up". So many people try to ignore the Christian faith. Ohh, they don't wanna hear about it. It stresses them out. I'm sorry... You're just not gunna "go there"? Try doing that with your studies. It doesn't work to just tune important stuff out. It'll backfire on you later. And you don't have to agree with me one little bit. I'm fine with that... I'm not the one you'll come to stand up to come judgement day.

Last edited: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 at 8:22:17 PM

Jacob - Thanks for starting this little debate on magnetic feilds. I have learnt a lot from reaseaching it - its a good healthy discussion.
I still feel I am right and am still open minded. XD
Agree to disagree on this one Ok. ;) But I still feel you arent looking at both sides objectively. But it is hard discussing such things on a message board.
Might catch you on AOL sometime. Its been a while.
Stay safe
Squid

@Ace

Aren't you guilty of that more than I am?
I guess you too believe the earth is under 10 000 yrs old. That's a lot of people just on this forum.
.....................

@Vash
Your stand on an extreme relativism could lead to an encouragement for believing the inconsistent and unethical. Ideally religion should never promote close-mindedness and intolerance which is why fundamentalism is unhealthy and very dangerous. Islam and Christianity produces large numbers of brainwashed people who are ready to impose their bed time stories as truths to society. A mountain of scientific evidence is ineffective when someone is too deep into his lunacy and I think there should be a limit to the tolerable in matters of religion if we don't want to suffer the consequences of a renewal of obscurantism. And again everything is not equally right just because we don't know the full truth, unless you're ready to validate irrationality, meaning not only will you never find answers but you'll lose yourself in the process.

Last edited: Thursday, November 09, 2006 at 7:51:13 AM

God is dead - or is it science and objective reason and fact. This one is anyone’s guess.

Religious people say God created everything on the Earth. Everything was done for a reason. He knew what he was doing. Has anybody ever studied about any type of life on the Earth and how complex it is? How could anyone understand so well what to do and make everything connect that good together like a puzzle pieces. The complexity of life on the Earth is still not fully understood by really anyone. Lots of people are specified on something, but nobody really seem to understand the big picture. Wouldn't it be likely that during timeline of million years everything worked together little by little creating the complexity to the level we see it today or God created the Earth on seven days?

If God was creator of the Earth and created everything. And there wasn't any evolution process. This would be denying that the life wasn't formed by a loong term "accident" and if there wasn't any evolution. This should mean that Gd came from no-where. How can God become from no-where as there wasn't any evolution? This would mean God was created by someone, but by whom was the someone created as there still wasn't any evolution process?

@Fellow Christians

It is Stan's purpose to prove how stupid and parochial Christians are. Look at his original question. He raised a flag, and you saluted just as he planned! He wins!

Jesus said "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves" (Matt. 10:16). You have not been shrewd! You may not have been completely innocent either!

Hugo is right when he says

You cannot prove that the earth is 6000 years old! You have no evidence! The Scriptures don't even say! So why do you feel it necessary to prove it? Why does it matter? Why? You bring up this spurious talk about the earth's magnetic field....all in an attempt to prove that it is 6000 years old when nowhere in the bible is that figure given! Just what are you defending? Are you defending the Lord? Are you sure? Is the age of the earth a necessary tenent of your faith? So what if it's 6,000 or 10,000, or 50,000? What's at stake? NOTHING. The question is: Did God create or did he not? That's the real quesiton. Stan's got you chasing your tails....and its just as funny as when dogs do it!

Think about what Hugo said....Think....think...think.

Stan obviously does not believe what you believe. How shall you talk to him? Think about that. Think about that long and hard. Will threatening him with a divine retribution be helpful? Is using Jesus' name as some magical incantation going to help? I think not.

It's one thing to be mocked for believing in Jesus as the Savior, but quite another thing to be mocked for being stupid and ill-prepared.

Now if you really want to please Stan, start accusing me of being an unbeliever! Then the dogs would not only be chasing their tails, but they would be devouring each other.

Hop

Last edited: Thursday, November 09, 2006 at 10:28:16 AM

I'm afraid being subject to criticism doesn't always entail one to claim martyrdom. Anyone affirming that he's right and everyone else is wrong exposes himself to a firm examination of his premises. It becomes indecent to then play the victim. From where I stand I see the intolerant wolf complaining that he is suffering from the injustice of having the sheeps question his right to denigrate all others (just take a look at how all other faiths are ridiculed with an uneducated bias on a Christian internet site). So long as you maintain exclusivity for yourself, you'll remain rooted in the evilness of antagonism with the rest of humanity, breeding conflicts instead of peace.

Last edited: Thursday, November 09, 2006 at 11:10:32 AM

@Stan

Exactly! I was with you on this one bub. I was blasting them! Not You. Read it again....all the way through.

I said

Very similar to your statement. I was actually hinting at the fact that they were not martyrs as they might think.

Yeah, I might have suggested that you are a wolf, what I meant is that you are a formidable opponent for whom they should properly prepare.

Hop

Last edited: Thursday, November 09, 2006 at 11:58:41 AM

I only see one truth, one god...

It is equal in finding your one truth,
what may be irrational to us may
make perfect sense to god.

I happen to be a christian and I
am neither close-minded, nor
intolerant, nor lost.

Stereotyping shows your bias and
close-mindedness to free will.

If god wanted us to follow one religion
we would all be----------, (that religion.)

I think its lunacy to put your stamp
of certainty when speaking about
god's universe.

You are promoting your "religion" as we
speak, or your insights, to spead an idea
that you believe to be true.

And at the same time condemn people to
the insane asylum for doing the same.

To spread the truth I have concluded is a
natual occurrence.

We must learn to filter out the negative and
follow as we re-assess each step.

I encourge free will...

I dont impose limits what god can or can not do.

It seems you are willing to put limitations that
do not apply...

And I question your motive for starting this thread.
I feel you may blame our "religions" for the mess we
currently are in.

I feel we just need to look for a reflection
to blame.

Not a religion or an idea.

An idea and religion only control you if you
are willing to allow it to do so.

Right?

What is the partial truth?

???

So you been watching Opera? (sorry its an inside joke) actually I'm not 14... I'm 13.

@Stan

Ever struggle to understand the rationalle for faith among those smarter and more thoughtful than you?

If so, see if this helps explain.

So very worth the read -- it enlightened this atheist (and nearly got me into church).

Last edited: Thursday, November 09, 2006 at 4:03:03 PM

Vash,

You may think that writing your posts in verses grants you the right to profess unfounded assessments and make leaps of reasoning. I think not.

Anyway, your big idea seems to take us back to a concept apparently extremely difficult to understand for many Christians: Can God be irrational?

In fact it is nothing more than a convenient alibi used by the "revealed" religions to explain away the contradictions and moral inconsistencies of their faith, while never granting that "Joker" card to the adversary. For example a Christian, by using reason will immediately reject as silly Muhammad's trip to Heaven onboard a winged horse with the archangel Gabriel, but he will not see the inanity of the Noah’s arch story. He will dismiss the idea that someone can get to heaven by killing "unbelievers", but he will not see it equally ridiculous that God will throw 90% of humanity in a lake of fire, for not adhering to a Church doctrine.

So there it goes again. Who are we to judge what God can or can’t do? Since we are incapable of understanding God, it follows that God is incomprehensible therefore anything is possible…. Not. This confusion stems from a vacuum rhetoric that allows a tricky slide from "omnipotent" to "limitless" to "anything is OK". The "no limitations" approach is erroneous and can only take ground within people for whom God remains an abstraction. The problem with this idea taken too far is that is leads to nihilism. If God is capable of doing anything and everything, he becomes nothing. If God isn't bound by his nature he is no longer God, because if he is without limitations he should be capable of cruelty and hate as much as compassion and love. We also know that unethical and unfair behavior is the results of selfish motives and ignorance or imperfection and these traits are incompatible with God. Therefore God would destroy himself by going beyond what He is, trying to be everything. Nothing and noone can go beyond rationality in that sense, not even God.
...........................

@44
I don't see your point, but Obama's piece is filled with humanism and the end is touching. Maybe because I so often get that desire to "snatch up each moment, never let go and lock in for eternity " my daughter's presence as she is today.

Last edited: Thursday, November 09, 2006 at 5:27:38 PM

All you got was "touching"? I see a cohesive, nuanced and thoughtful explanation of how one can embrace both critical thought and religion -- a concept that has always challenged me.

Last edited: Thursday, November 09, 2006 at 5:02:17 PM

Critical thinkers eh?

Both of you critical thinkers were too engaged in your newly found religious studies to catch this......

Be mindful not to replace naturally occurring humor with science or religion, as neither are pure.

@44
Thought I'd rewrite it a bit, but you beat me to it. As for embracing critical thought and religion, I've done my best for a few weeks now, without Obama's talent of course. I am nonetheless proud of having succeded in sparking thoughts of chocolate ice cream in your mind.

More seriously. Critical thought is only a component of reality while religion is the all-embracing, all-including truth. This is why as long as religion defines itself in opposition to reason it remains incomplete and can't be true. Or if we accept the definition of religion as a Man made institution created for fulfilling the spiritual need of the masses, we can then say that religion can only become spiritual and reach its highest dimension when it reconciles itself with reason. Only by bridging this gap can an intelligent man get a glimpse of the Divine and a religious man become intelligible to himself and to others. Our challenge is to find God without losing ourselves and fall into delusion, to acquire more acuity not to forsake our reasoning ability, to become more of what we are, not less.

Throughout history all great men of wisdom (Socrates, Buddha, Plato, Jesus, Ramakrishna, Lao Tzu, Vivekananda, Gandhi,...) were sensible men who all expressed disdain for unreasonable superstitious worship. Never has any of them ascribed to or encouraged the blind belief of specious precepts.

Last edited: Thursday, November 09, 2006 at 7:31:49 PM

There is not much of a leap when stating fact.

Writing in verses just means that I am bored
nothing more.

Here is were I think you miss my profess, we are not equal
to god's understanding of this reality. We can only understand
what we can perceive.

God could be nothing which is something because you can
not have nothing without something.

How could there be nothing with out a conscious of nothing
existing?

In our reality god is a nihilistic being.

But that isnt my point.

Good, evil is a perception. God is not without
knowing both.

Maybe that is what makes him something and complete as
the idea of perfection.

God is abstract as is time, light, and gravity in a sense that
we can preceive one dimension of time, light, and gravity but
still have no idea how it really works.

We only understand when you flick the switch on light fills the
room, we also understand that my dinner is taking way to much
time to cook, we understand that if you push your friend while
racing down a flight of stairs he may trip and fall and break a bone
or two.

Yes,, in that sense we do understand god.

So pretend away my friend...

Btw you didnt answer my question.

What is the partial truth?

And dont give me;

As the answer.

@44.

Good article, I would have like to have met his mother. If he would have turned out more like her I would be first in line pushing him to run for president.

I picked up on a few things that it seems to me always drives critical thinking individual into accepting religion.

Social acceptance. In my experience many people attend churches where they do not necessarily believe all the doctrines that are be taught in the church. Instead they need the social interactions and acceptance that goes along with it. Having somewhere to belong is a very powerful need.

Fear of the unknown/death. It's not a very comforting thought to face mortality without some hope of life after death. The vast majority of individuals need this reassurance to be able to face their impending doom.

I got the feeling that Obama was able to acknowledge the negative aspects of organized religions but failed to understand the underlying causality behind it.

Basically this is what happens.

Religions create organized social groups. Human society demands that these groups have a differential aspect to identify them from all of the other social groups in the area. This is the very thing that binds the group together. Because the social groups are built upon dissimilarities, conflict between different groups is inevitable.

@Jacob
Your 13 now. I want you to think about something for a little while. Why do the armed services accept you in at 18 but you can't legally drink alcohol until you are 21. You may not think that it is related to this discussion but trust me, it is.

@Vash
The tired old argument that "we cannot understand god because we are so far beneath him" is not a proof of his existence or of the rightness of your religion. It has commonly been used to keep people subjugated to a corrupt ruling class.

@ Three

A serious forum??? How are the boys downstairs doing? :S XD

@Vash

What I said answers the "partial truth" notion and I did so many times on this forum in the last few months. And if you command me to not answer in a certain way, you need to show why it isn't appropriate, as I can't do much more if don't even try to or are unable to grasp the idea.

If you're bored with this forum maybe you should do something else with you time, unless you mean that you feel so far above us that writing is verses is the only way for you to express that vanity, since your arguments alone fall short of conveying that feeling. Also, due to your systematic grandstanding mysterious style of speech, I might misunderstand you at times and put ideas in your mind that don't belong there, feel free to clear it up when that happens.

However, I do like your thoughts about nothingness and I personally always found this fascinating.

Partial truth is everything we know to be true according to our understanding and our premises. In effect there are as many partial truths than there are human beings, or any creatures even. The ultimate truth certainly requires a better perception of who we are and sound reasoning. Truth is not a negation of partial truth but its fulfillment. Because we don't have the Truth, we aren't wrong, but incompletely right. What that means is that our partial truth is real and we can build on it. There are universal truths that we have access to and will never be proven wrong, even considering the possibility of a different perspective. Possessing the Truth we might understand why the Shoah took place and maybe even look at it in a good way somehow (hard to say that, but for the sake of argument), but the intent of annihilating people to satisfy a selfish desire will never be an act of goodness. All the relativism in the world can't go beyond that. God can't go beyond that because it is a fundamental contradiction in principle.

The reason you seem to justify a state of incapacity in respect to spirituality is that you fathom the possibility that as long as you don't have the last piece of the puzzle, the whole picture might be totally wrong, and in a way you're right but a change of framework doesn't invalidate or dimimnishes the purity of an emotion. You seem to reason in a vacuum and concentrate on God's magnitude and transcendence without paying attention to his immanence. You fail to acknowledge the truthfulness of some of the things you already know. And those things are extremely useful to unmask false preachers.

@The V
Very good analysis on Obama.

Last edited: Friday, November 10, 2006 at 7:27:44 AM

Stan said

Jacob, I understand you're only 14, but you seem extremely indoctrinated. The Christian faith taken literaly is very childish and you better snap out of it. It probably was a bummer when you learned Santa didn't exist, but you finally realized that the gifts came from a much closer and stronger affective bond, your parents. Same goes with your religion, you'll lose a lunatic fantasy but not God, you'll just come to know that he's not who you thought he was.

Now this I find rubish it is not childish at all dude

Its possible as im a christian. There have been 2000 years scince jesus came and there were roughly 3000-4000 years from there to adam and eve if you ask me

Last edited: Saturday, November 11, 2006 at 1:48:41 PM

Agree?

Yes, as we evolve eventually we will know the full truth, silly me
I thought you meant now...(if we are to exist for a very long time)

It is so funny that you think that, you know I didnt
start a thread to just convey how dumb a religion is...

Anyone?

I think the difference here is you are reading just to
punch holes in what I am saying. I am reading to
find anwsers and understanding.

You are slowly becoming what you hate, starting with
this thread.

There are many points that I agree with you, being half right
is not one of them, reason, you have an infinite amout of
possible rights and an infinite possible of half rights from there
and so on......(a very high entropic way of being right)

Which means???

What...

Last edited: Saturday, November 11, 2006 at 2:46:00 PM

@Stan. Looks like you may have mistook my question for a sarcastic cheap shot. Wasn't intended that way. I asked, in all seriousness, if you, like me, ever struggle to understand how people of high intelligence rationalize their religious beliefs without suspending their use of reason. Obama's article gave me a better understanding of how one can bridge that gap. That's all.

Last edited: Saturday, November 11, 2006 at 2:51:54 PM

@Vash
To be honest I don' t understand most of what you write, so I respond to what I think you're insinuating. Maybe it's just me, but if you tried to back up your statements in a more intelligible manner it would be easier as well as more considerate. What you write doesn't seem to conform to basic Christian doctrine though.

On the infinity of "half-rights": This again is an abstract concept, and I used it mindlessly without thinking you would take me up on it. Infinite here only means that there is an infinite variation of details within a relatively comparable perception of reality among human beings. Just as we are all different we also are the same on a bigger scale. The numerous fine variations are all contained within a frame that most humans fit in. We can also notice that the more wisdom a man possesses the more his truth becomes centered as the most eccentric views no longer have any relevance. All the men I mention in a previous post (Socrates, Buddha, Plato, Jesus, Ramakrishna, Lao Tzu, Vivekananda, Gandhi,...) have the same outlook on life. As if we were all around a mountain and the wide diameter at its base allows for a very large number of positioning, but as we move up, regardless of our starting point, the number of possibles narrows toward the top. Look for example at the infinite diversity of life forms leading to only one Man, as if an increase in complexity raises the awareness and elevates a counsciousness that tends to recognize a commonality. Look at how many religions and denominations exist in the World. Most of the time they fight over minute details that has absolutely no incidence in the follower's ability to become a better person, but ignorance tends to divide things. On the contrary, if one can read scriptures with intelligence he will see the same core teachings in all religions. Wisdom unites and reduces the infinity of truths into one.

@44
Most intelligent people don't adhere to the most naive tenets of their religion. You noticed Obama mentions the Big-Bang in his writing and he most likely believes in evolution too. His Christianity is certainly far removed from the evangelical version. I'm sorry to have to say that, but the ones who believe absurdities are seldom very bright, or they are deeply indoctrinated. They can't and don't even try to rationalize their religious beliefs, but rather remain in a state of compartmentalization of thinking, a sort of disconnect when the subject of religion is brought up that allows for a shutting down of their natural inquisitiveness and logical reasoning. But spirituality shouldn't be judged by the lowest form of religious belief. A truly religious man is not a believer, but someone who struggles to prove God to himself.

Last edited: Saturday, November 11, 2006 at 8:18:35 PM

Well I can see it took you longer to edit your post
then your 1hr and 20.99976453min-usaul, so I am
guessing you took all that time to make me look
dumb.

Dude, put the book down its clouding your brain...

I thought when I convey to you that I was bored, you'd would figure out I was a non-
comform-ist...

Ahh, no. Do not leave out gandhi, its like musik to my ear...at last..its gude real gude..

Now is if you were using this form of eccetric than I am impress; Deviating from a circular
form or path, as in an elliptical orbit.

Also if you ever do decide to start a new realigion based on 4000 y/o philosophies,
apparently still in progress,(thanks to our buddy stan for the regurg,, lmao..) are you
going to name it,;JR PBS on LG TV's?

Btw,, is it hard to read and type???

Wisdom is gaind from experience, ok, our experiance has had this apex for over
four thousand years...have we add to it in some way???

I would say,, not really( tho for a few except. " gandi " tions)

I believe when we ever hit the state of nervana it will be when we shed the
thing called life,, through this new prespcetive will att-ain a low entropic way
of being right.. (all in order, nice and neat)

Know matter how many ways you think its wrong, we only preceive one
dimensionally. Look at poor rover, he sees in blk & wht.. But, AH LAST,
there are an array of colors, he is an old wise dog to boot, is he only
half right, or is it, if he lives long enough to evolve to someday see in color>>>

?

Look ma know hans...lmao,,(I was typing with my feet..so..LOL...excuse my typ-hos)

Dats for you tally and J, oh ya also flea...

PEACE

Last edited: Monday, November 13, 2006 at 12:24:13 AM

God is dead. -Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead. -God

^^ It is by becoming Man that the dog acquires vision color, not the other way around. The truth for the dog is not seeing the World in color, but to become aware of himself.

PS: And why would you write "peace" at the end of a post filled with venom?

lol I love it! XD

All motion has to have a mover.

Victims..arent we all. - the crow

In a evolutionary term of speaking, dog is one apex of many, dog is still dog and man is still
man, quantum mechanically all is equal and vision is infinite. If dog is not aware of himself
than he is not conscious and is not apart of man.

Peace is my antivenom.

Last edited: Monday, November 13, 2006 at 4:32:59 PM

You didn't get it. Yet I responded to your analogy and then you disconnected yourself from it. Re-visit it maybe.

Nice deflection,

But a nap I think would do you some good.

Get what exactly?

That you think man is the apex of universal
evolution?

That god could not be everything cuz he would
kill himself? (cuz he couldnt stand himself cuz he was evil)

That man's half truth is good enough cuz we can
only see a half universe?

That a dog's connection to a humans quantum physics
validates his quantum perspective of color but not
inversely as the truth for this interconnected dog
is not the same but apart until he is aware he's connected?

Is that what I dont get?

Last edited: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 at 9:41:20 PM

Unification Theology -------- ah-ha.

Never thought to google that
before...