Forums Index >> General >> War is stupid
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@Tally -- I believe you have your answer.
This will make crazy the fear-filled, Hannity-, Rush-, Beck-listening minions....but, you sound a lot like what the former president of Iran is saying right now.
I didn't intend for this is be an Iraq War thread, but since it is currently the best known war, its an easy reference, but I hope we can expand the conversation to all war.
@ GQ - I like the concept, but not the means. I think it should be up the the citizenry of those countries to rise up and overthrown their governments using whatever means they see fit and third parties should support them. So instead of considering a war with Iran ourselves, we should be doing a lot more to support the dissenters in that nation and give them the means to do it themselves.
@All - On the way to lunch, I was thinking about this some more. What are Osama's grievances? What do the terrorists want? Does anyone know off the top of their head? Obviously, if they just want the "Great Satan" dead, we can't give them that, but what if there are somethings that we've done as a nation that has them ticked off? Do we just call them terrorists and arrest/kill them or should we reconsider how we're acting in their countries?
@Rabban
Stop asking these silly questions. You're either with us, or against us. Pick a f'n side!
I can't help but throw out the liberation of India from British rule and cite Gandhi's non-violent civil disobedience ideas supporting that effort. What would happen in the US if millions of people refused to pay their taxes as a form of protest against the spending policies of our administration? What if millions of us refused to drive our cars for a month in order to promote the development of alternative fuel sources? Suppose one of those million person marches decided to march into Congress and just still down. Imagine all the people...whoops...er...anyway, I think there are ways to accomplish things non-violently as well.
Rabban, the Middle East have a law unto themselves, I don't think that they are happy unless they are fighting for their cause, we had mush the same thing in the UK with the IRA, but things are calming down now. Religion is a strong emotion with some people, but I do think in the Middle East there is a huge fanatical and exteremist population.#
Just my thoughts, but I agree, war is never good, although it is needed sometimes, I say back all our forces out there they are doing a great job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The idea of War is also evolving with time. Now that most of us are in the 21st Century, i.e. A globalized, non-tribal planet, the idea of war is obsolete. Borders won't change very much in the future, the economies are very much integrated in a worldwide model, the borders are open for business and travel, etc. So what's the point?
In the good ole days war *could* make some sense (that's a conversation right there), but after WW1 and the introduction of industrialized killing (Vicker Guns anyone?), war has become absurd. Hence all the modern art, Guernica, etc. 'Tis over.
Unless you work in the weapon industry...
@44 - Was Tally's question, "Has Hell frozen over?". XD
If the entire population, or a large prtion of it rebelled, it would be senseless to kill them. I think every world leader, even Saddam, realizes that.
In non civilized countries such as Iraq was
Saddam Hussein and his party might have been brutal, but Iraq was more "civilized" when he was in power. People weren't blowing themselves up daily.
And I think everyone forgets the first excuse Bush and his cronies came up with for invading Iraq. Hmm, whatever happened to all those WMDs?
In non civilized countries such as Iraq was
The Middle East have a law unto themselves, I don't think that they are happy unless they are fighting for their cause
Does noone else see the nazi-ish hysteria to this whole 'de-humanise the middle east' campaign? Why are these people different to us? Why are we so much better that we have the right to go in and "liberate" people? Are we not ALL just human? Why are we so-much-better humans, that we have the right to go in and change how other people live, it's all just bloodthirsty arrogance masquerading as charity.
I for one don't support this 'exporting of " democracy" ! '
note the exclamation marks around 'democracy', they're important, they are.
I think all war is uneeded. The more we kill, the morethey will kill us. Why dont we just forgive them? Dont think you would want to be forgiven for something if you did wrong? Do they deserve less? They have friends, family, and minds too! Do you know that good feling you get when your forgiven? Its like a load is lifted off. They need that too! If its hard, ask God to help you.
Lookin out for a new army.
So our president may have gave a false reason to stop all this and take Saddam out.
Did you not say you studied law?
Do you guys noticed how much the Western world is controlled by propaganda? I never saw it, until my dutch teacher gave us a study about it.
I was amazed.
@ Rabban:
R for Resistance. :)
Do you even understand that whole concept of nazism.
The belief that their is a master race which should control all others... Their is no master race; so YOU are not it.
Thats not a human response, it is a selfish and an unrealistic way of thinking. It's completly un american.
This is exactly the sort of bull I am talking about. So let's break this down. For a start, I am NOT "american" (neither geographically or metaphorically). Does that mean I am not human - "Thats not a human response"? Anyone who does not agree with you is not human - so you have veto power? Are you an enlightened one who will instill them with " freedom" . Why are YOUR rules more "free" than anyone elses?
Note: I used quotation marks again for 'freedom', you might want to write that down, they were important...
Last edited: Friday, September 08, 2006 at 2:30:57 PM
Just like a crook they never want the cops untill they need them.
So YOU are the cop? The benevolent ruler of the world?
I think where we are running into problems is the fact that I am referring to dictionary definitions, whereas you are talking about the propagandaic definitions - take your head out of that tv screen, for your own sake.
Tell you views to a surviver from a WW2 concentration camp and see what response you get. Or tell it to a women in Iraq who has had her children beheaded right in front of her. Or tell a father who was forced to watch as saddams men raped his daughters over and over only to see them killed after words. Tell it to the families of all the men, women, and children who have been found in mass graves cut to pieces.
Have YOU ever talked personally to any of these people? While I can't admit to speaking to Iraqi's or survivors of concentration camps, I don't believe you have either.
I have however spent some time backpacking through Cambodia - yes, survivors of the polpot era, remember him? - speaking to people. REAL people, not those chosen for the cameras.
My views are strongly AGAINST all this hypocritical Bullcrap about using the american might to export "freedom" and I am strongly in support of REAL freedom. Which can essentially only come from the minds of the oppressed.
Where would the world be if america stayed out of all other wars except those on it's own soil.
It's ****, It's all just a giant steaming pile of ****, the decision to go to war CANNOT be taken lightly, if you're so keen on changing something for the better, try changing the fact that America and it's "junior partner" britain are the biggest Human Rights hypocrites in the world.
War IS stupid; and those who believe the warmongerers are stupider.
Last edited: Friday, September 08, 2006 at 3:26:33 PM
Hippies, the lot of you.
I love my randylion
Great post rabbie.
Gq,
Think that when the goverment of Iraq killed millions of it's people was cause enough to make war with them,
That is true but than our first stop should have
been in africa not the middle east.
Last edited: Friday, September 08, 2006 at 6:26:05 PM
But the terrorist we are looking for is not in iraq.
GQ, there is a significant difference between consistency and accuracy. BYW, why aren't you in uniform in Iraq?
{WalMart free for over 24 months!}
Can u say oil?
The only way the usa would spend billions of dollars would be if we can gain
some thing from the whole venture..
Makes sense to me, and I guess that is why we didnt go in africa first.
(terrorist are very where)
So you can safely say we are in iraq because of oil.
But is that just reason for going in there? Besides terrorist and the evil suddam.
Like rabbie said there other ways of gettin the job done.
Btw sry to hear you have cancer.
I will pray for you if you dont mind.
Last edited: Friday, September 08, 2006 at 7:15:48 PM
Well I have my feelings on it and you have yours.
Right or wrong lives are saved because America is in Iraq.
Maybe we are doing some things around the globe that making everyone hate us and perhaps THAT'S where we need to focus our citizen's eye and demand that our government AND businesses stop such activities instead of bullying them into submission.
I'm sorry, but uhh, you're like, not allowed to say that. You're either with us or against us you know? We will not negotiate with terrorists an' all that... Just give in to the soundbites and stop thinking for yourself... It's very unamerican.
Last edited: Saturday, September 09, 2006 at 2:24:50 AM
Boy Geogre also said that War is stupid XD
@ GQShooter:
Where would the world be if america stayed out of all other wars except those on it's own soil. No people like you only want america when you need us. Just like a crook they never want the cops untill they need them. Then they are the greatest people ever.
Where would America be without Europe? Without France's assistance in the war against Britain without Britain and the Netherlands who brought our EUROPEAN values, thoughts, machines and weapons (yes that is our mistake). Without europe you would have had a feather on your head and be called a squaw.
Nice quiet world that would be.
Last edited: Saturday, September 09, 2006 at 3:50:38 AM
@title of thread
All I can say is duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh...
Nice post Rabban.
Hehe... Without europe we would have england so....
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Lives are saved because America is in Iraq.
At the same time thousand of innocent lives were taken
becuase america is in iraq. (46,000 civilians) I think suddam
beat us by a couple of thousand when he gassed the Kurds.
Not to mention new terrorist are spwaning in iraq becuase they
lost their family and blame the usa.
There is nothing more dangerous than a person to have
nothing to live for as your enemy.
He would probably be just crazy enough to strap a nuke on
his back and walk into a US city.
Not good for us.
Without europe you would have had a feather on your head and be called a squaw.
Some may not, but I find that comment on the far side of offensive and pretty racist. Find a better way to make your argument rather than belittling the indigenous people of North America.
Heh my background is indeed
Indigenous people of North America
, algonquin to be precise.
Because it was before the invention of TV, Radio and Photography, our liberation doesn't count. But let is be known that 'America' saved us too, it saved us from ourselves. Now we can live safely on native reserves. It's great! God Bless Uncle Sam!
Uncle Sam AND government cheese!!
I did a little on-line search for Osama's demands and this is what I came up with.
Osama bin Laden wants the United States to convert to Islam, ditch its constitution, abolish banks, jail homosexuals and sign the Kyoto climate change treaty.
...
Alcohol and gambling would be barred and there would be an end to women's photos in newspapers or advertising.
Any woman serving "passengers, visitors and strangers", presumably anyone from air stewardesses to waitresses, would also be out of a job.
The West must "stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you" and has become the "worst civilisation witnessed in the history of mankind".
This was the list as of November 2005.
Personally, I'm not sure we can deliver all these. I mean, do we really want to sign the Kyoto Treaty???
^ lol
Don't get it aswell we could have asked...with 9-11 were killing left and right we shoot then...i don't know have a party 8o. Take out the leader then #2 and so on but the catch is more and more are becoming evil so we would keep getting killed and keep killing we don't respawn 1 life thats it but enough with that STOP war NOW because we found some oil in the water. Tell them to stop attacking and we will stop attacking. But they won't do that oh no they are pure evil so if they did what they said...Hey we could all be friends not ememys...hopefully... But that might never happen.
You may kill me but your warning is this: you will be hunted down. Unless some really good players are around.
We found some oil in the water.
huh? Don't get the reference...
Watch news find out...it's somewhere in the water the pasifc I think.
You may kill me but your warning is this: you will be hunted down. Unless some really good players are around.
Last edited: Thursday, September 21, 2006 at 12:23:47 PM
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I've had a personal revelation!
I'm sure it seems obvious to some, but it just suddenly hit me. I was reviewing some footage I had shot at the National Museum of Civil War Medicine and there was a segment on Dr Jonathan Letterman who said, "History teaches us that a wounded and prostrate foe is not then our enemy." He was talking about the need to respect and help anyone who have been wounded during a battle, not just those on your side. It got me to thinking that the whole purpose of war was to put holes in people so they couldn't resist the will of another. Seems like an overblow attempt to bully someone.
I can see were war is still a necessary evil, especially when a nation is acting in its own defense because you can't allow a bully to kill off your population, but I can see now that negotiations and diplomacy are paramount to getting things done. Granted, you've got to have rational parties on both sides of the table, but even then perhaps the best course would be to change your own expectations rather than demand certain actions from the other side.
For instance, the war is Iraq is taking on a different perspective for me now. What if it was really about the oil? Then perhaps we as citizens should have demanded the government reduce our dependancy on oil rather than kill people to insure its import to US. Someone could mention the terrorists training in Iraq and the WMD and they may have been used against the US. OK, but other countries are training their armies and have WMD that could be used against US. Are we attacking them too? Maybe we are doing some things around the globe that making everyone hate us and perhaps THAT'S where we need to focus our citizen's eye and demand that our government AND businesses stop such activities instead of bullying them into submission.
And could someone help Stink? I think he's fainted. ;)