I was watching a special about the Tsunami in Asia. The show included many interviews with survivors. Every one of them had horrific stories about their experience and their personal loss and the show brought me to tears several times. The scale of this disaster on an individual level, as well as on a communal level is incomprehensible. Absolutely tragic.

But there was one thing that I could not go in agreement with, and I bring it up here as a discussion.

EVERY single survivor story included them saying (in so many words) "It is a miracle that I survived, God has a plan for me".
Most of them admitted that they did not yet understand "Why" they were spared, but they were sure that there was a reason that they would understand in time.

What is it about human nature that makes people believe there is a "Plan" for them if they survive a tragedy? Why do people think that God had a reason to save them and kill nearly 300,000 others?

I am QUITE sure that if I had been involved in this horrible experience and lived to tell about it, I would not be thinking that I was saved by the fickle hand of god, I would only be counting myself among the lucky.

I am not trying to be negative or controversial regarding religion, I am only trying to understand this facet of the human experience.

K8

Last edited: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 at 7:09:18 PM

One of life's greatest mysteries, isn't it TG? We seem to really, really need a purpose. If we can't see one, we'll invent one..."every thing happens for a reason." the same empty crap.

But then again, who wants to be just some puny, lonely, sad little mortal floating around on a great big rock, with mortal life ticking away every second? Nothing but the void ahead of you...

Better to think god's got a really neat plan for you...those other guys, god was through with. But you! Ah! You must be special!

Saying "god has a purpose for me" spares those poor people from having to face the horror of the meaninglessness of that awful, catostrophic calamity.

It's the very same with EVERY disaster show,documentary,report etc etc.

"I believe God has something special for me" has been said at least 20 times on different shows.

Go watch "Seconds from disaster" Or "Extreme Evidence",You'll hear it 20 times aswell.

Last edited: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 at 4:56:41 PM

Is this like Noah and the Arch?

^ Depends if Noah pronated or supinated. Also if he liked McDonalds (blechh) ;)

Oh no please do NOT get me started on this BS......

It's all about what you believe and how you deal with it (like stinkfingers said). People have to deal with things in their own way.

Some of these people might not have been religious, yet they survived and now they have decided to have faith. Their reasoning, "god as a plan for me"...

Some people may have been religious before the experience and are now turning away because they just lost their whole family and believe that god has turned their back.

Some would think they were lucky (like you), some would assume fate had a role, and some would say god had a plan (like me). Just a matter of perception I guess...

Silbarcalis

Last edited: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 at 5:41:48 PM

Personaly I think god does not have a plan for us. I think he can only do so much at a time and only save so many people at one time like this. I think he couldn't have saved all of them even if he truly tried, I believe there are limits to God's power. I think he had to choose the people who he think should live a full life. I believe he does not discriminate against those who don't believe in him but in this kind of thing like a Tsunami or something tragic, he tries to save as many of the poeple that believe in him first.

The faith of cliche' is often unhelpful and leaves too many questions unanswered. As the stinkmeister sayeth, to merely cast off your good fortune as being blessed is indeed 'empty crap'. Look deeper into the faith question that was originally asked,

It contradicts the understanding of an all-powerful God, rather than having a God who chooses to deal with this world as it is. It also contradicts or makes the dogma of predestination and the Calvinist double predestination seem very callous. I will try to write a better statement later.

@TG
Very interesting topic. I've thought about it for many years. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do some people survive and so many others don't? Were these fortunate survivors "chosen" by God for a purpose as they like to believe? Was it just time for those that died to "go home to heaven"? While I consider myself a believer and attend church on a regular basis, I have trouble too digesting much of this stuff.

I also find it offensive when athletes (especially during these two weeks leading up to the SuperBowl) start boasting how it's God's will that their team will win the big game and that they will be blessed to have a great game...blah blah blah! As if God has favorite teams or something!
I guess the Lord is from New England since the Patriots and Red Sox sure seem to be Blessed!

Give me a break...

Note: Watch the movie "FEARLESS".... Really makes you think...

I GOT A PLAN FOR YOU TG, FLEA! Oops, er LORD FLEA, I MEAN, FLEA-GOD. Oh crap, never mind...

What's wrong with having a little hope or faith? What's wrong with feeling that somebody may be looking down on you? What's wrong with thinking that maybe I survived a tragedy for a reason and can now do some good? Quite an awakening for thousands of people after that tsunami tragedy don't you think?

There's nothing to understand. You either have faith or you don't. Why question one's faith? Now if you tell me that my faith told me to do harm then I'll agree that they're misguided. Faith is what drives you whether it be in yourself or in the form of religion.

Is it not possible to believe what the survivors statements mean is that they're simply trying to cope?

When people say things such as, "God has a plan for me." or "God smiled on our side of the field today.", I personally correlate it to their own personal inner drive or their wantingness to cope with a tragedy and not so much in relation to religion. IMHO it simply means that my faith and belief in God or that my own will got me to this point and maybe my tiny little existence does in fact have a purpose. Come on. Doesn't everyone need something to drive them?

I ask this. What's wrong with letting people feel good about themselves? Why must that be questioned whether you are a religious individual or not? Think about it. If we all believed in nothing, not meaning just God but faith in yourself, can you imagine how even more dismal this place would be for the brunt of the world's population? People grieve and celebrate life in different ways. If their beliefs aren't harming you or the world, zip it, and feel a little compassion or pleased for them.

There are no atheists in foxholes.... Especially during an artillery barrage.

Tsunami's would probably be included as well.

I don't think God makes plans for your life... At least not without asking for him.

What man ( woman too) fails to realize is the existence of the unknowable. Many people do not believe in the unknowable but 99.999999999999999999% of it is just that.

Sniper

I thought this might be helpful.

Commentary: Tsunami, God and evil

I think it is important to reflect on how we react to good and bad things that come into our lives. In either case, do we have a positive or a negative attitude toward God and how is it expressed? We usually question God whenever something bad happens, but why don't we do the same thing when something good happens? Do we always assume we don't deserve anything bad, but always assume we deserve the good? I think it would be good to wonder about both sometimes.

Calamity's are always going to come, either by earthquakes and tsunamis or train wrecks or slipping on a bar of soap in the shower. The world is a dynamic place and we're always going to have natural and man-made disasters. I don't think its as important to try to figure out why it happened and what motivated God to allow it as to personnaly being ready to meet the Maker afterwards or if we're a survivor, being willing to help those in need.

WHY MUST PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD BE PERSECUTED?
Why is there five percent of the US who doubt previous civilizations have been wrong do they simply think they are better? Did the universe happen on accident? I am a Catholic and I don't believe in the Adam and Eve story I just believe in the holy trinity.
If something came from nothing please do NOT repeat that idea.

Also do not think Im missing school there is just a school delay.

ROGUE:
Very nicely written. I agree. There IS nothing wrong with someone feeling a positive force in their life after having survived a tragedy. My perspective is not an attack on religion, In spite of the title of this thread, this is not a religious oriented topic. Although the most stereotypical reference is the "God's will" or "God's plan" responses, I just find it interesting to see how people try to find meaning from a random event, regardless of religious affiliation.

(Quoted for emphasis)

The only thing that really changes after a near death experience is our awareness of how precious our lives are. There are no "plans" for a person who cheated death, but we, as humans tend to think that something special is in store for us BECAUSE we survived. This is just our misplaced perception of our new awareness of the world around us.

The sad thing is, we should be feeling this way every day of our lives. Its a shame that we, as individuals must personally face death before we can open our eyes to what is really important.

Last edited: Thursday, January 27, 2005 at 8:32:23 AM

Rabby,
Interesting link. An interesting voice in this debate.

Last edited: Thursday, January 27, 2005 at 8:37:45 AM

Divine narcissism, n'est ce pas ?

Persecuted majority, yet again: "WHY MUST PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD BE PERSECUTED?"

Apparently, martyrdom is so critical to your identity as christians, you can't give up on this concept, even when you are persecuting others....

No one is attacking christianity...some of us, christians / non-christians, think that the concept that God spared you, but took everyone else is misguided. "divine narcissim."

Its an opinion. Wanna have faith? Great. Knock yourself out. By why would you assume you're one of God's Favorites?

I gotta speeding ticket on the way to work...surely, God planned that. I hit a young man on a bike and killed him...surely god planned that as well...and he is in a better place. Yesturday a wind storm knocked a powerline on the neighbors house...killed them all. Burnt down the entire neighborhood. Spared me and my house because he's got another plan for me...

I just can't stand orderlessness...not for one second. So when some random tragedy affects me, I create some bullshit hypothesis to stave off chaos just a tad longer.

Good grief.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/01/27/auschwitz.anniversary/index.html
If your god planned that, your god can kiss my ass.

@Rogue
Maybe you misunderstood my point. There is nothing wrong with having faith and hope. I just don't like the way some people use God and the Lord in a public manner for their own selfish gain or just out of ignorance. For example, a woman on American Idol said God wanted her to be the next American Idol. Simon said, "God doesn't want you to go to Hollywood. Goodbye".

Anyway, it's no biggie anyway. I believe in freedom of speech. I hate censorship. I was just sharing a personal belief, that's all.
I would never deny a person the right to voice their oppinion however silly or incorrect they might be.

Here are some quotes:
"hope is a good thing" from The Shawshank Redemption...

"hopes and dreams are like water and oxygen".... From the paisano (inspired by a line from Flashdance when Nick tells Jennifer Beals "don't you understand? When you give up your dream, you DIE!")

Huh? I wasn't talking to you Pie. Was just illustrating my own personal idea.

Oh, then shut up rogue...god doesn't want anyone to hear you.

Hola! Me Bertha Campa! Me Diva!

Whenever me face a near-death or near-decapitation of a limb experience me just say "Holy crap! Me almost die!" or "Holy crap! Me almost get a papercut!" Andrenaline heightens my senses to the point of nasal blockage clearing up. That pretty much it. Me find the lives of friends and family (and mahself) very precious but then again we're just organisms in a petri dish called earth. We are not so important in the scope of things in general. Want to know the meaning of life? Do ya? I'll tell you:

The meaning of life is to make more life. Life itself wants to prosper and doesn't really care about individuality. That's a human trait to find our individuality important. Want to know why homosexuality exists and how it fits into my beliefs? Do ya? I'll tell you:

Homosexuality exists as population control. Simple as that. There is no God. Believe what you want, but there is no real reason for us being on earth other than to live. Good job and well done we've already succeeded in our purpose. If my thoughts are too cold and cut and dry and etc for you me understand. I respect everyones belief systems this just happens to be mine. Religion is good for the ones who feel a need for it. It has helped alot of people I personally know from feeling lost and helpless and helps give them meaning.

On a final note... Life is what you make of it. No matter what you do in it just make sure you're happy for that is what matters most (no matter what others may try to feed your head.) Make sure you are in a place where you are loved and can love yourself. Best to yas all. :)

Last edited: Thursday, January 27, 2005 at 9:49:48 PM