Forums Index >> General >> Is the unborn a human being?"
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All life is precious from conception....it may not look like a human being when concieved but it is and when an abortion takes place its not like as if it isnt bad. In reality they are murdering the un born child. Just because it cant speak for itself doesnt mean it doesnt want to or doesnt deserve to live. The woman should just give the baby up for adoption if she doesnt want to have the baby
^ how do you feel about contraception? Sperm getting killed in a condom or an egg being killed through the morning after pill? It may not look like a human being and it may not be able to speak for itself but should we be killing it when all it wants is to be allowed to swim up the uterus and live! Does it or doesn't it deserve to live?
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When I was in china I ate a chicken-feotus kebab, now did I eat the chicken or the egg?
bones hadn't formed, it wasn't very meaty and it tasted like egg...
Last edited: Sunday, May 28, 2006 at 1:31:20 PM
Dictionary definition of borm :
1. Brought into life by birth.
2. Brought into existence; created
It all really comes down to the same question. What is the unborn.
Bringing this into religion a bit, even if the unborn aren't, for lack of a better word, "born", does that mean that they can be conceived again by a different and/or same mother? Or are they finished?
If the unborn weren't born but they still were aborted they wouldn't care because they wouldn't know about life. Is that wrong? You can't miss what you don't have, right?
@ bloop im against abortion.......i was trying to say that to let the baby be born and to live........if they couple or woman decide that they do not want to keep the baby they can give it up to a family member or put it up for adoption. I feel that once concieved a person is a living human being. Just because it cant speak for itself doesnt mean that it should be killed...........let it live and give it a chance.
I'm going for the second one.
Brought into existence; created
Sperms and eggs aren't humans yet. They never joined.
^^^ what does that matter?
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
It depends.
Last edited: Monday, May 29, 2006 at 5:22:15 AM
Yup.(No more comments)
Thinktanks: $20 New Mouse: $15 Winning an indy scrum game: Priceless
I find it funny that the same people who oppose abortion because they say you're killing a human life generally seem to support the death penalty and the war in Iraq. Sorry, long sentence :P. I won't say any more.
I don't.
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Lol player. Well, in my opinion, abortion is bad. But, that is just my opinion without looking at all the options. Abortions are not ethical to most of us, but we can't tell others what to do or not to either. In the rape situation, it would seem okay for the victim to get an abortion if they wanted to. I also agree with DA on this.
@player,
why did you bring the war in Iraq into this? How would someone support the death penalty in the war? Just curious since my dad is over there atm.
This what I found in google.
MOTION -- does it seem to move under its own power? Does it move
with some discernible purpose? (Toward food, away from heat, etc)
REPRODUCTION -- does it have some way of making more of itself,
either through sexual reproduction or by budding or fissioning in
some way?
CONSUMPTION -- does it eat or drink? Does it take in nutrients
in one way or another in order to survive, grow, and eventually
multiply?
GROWTH -- does the organism develop over time, increase in
complexity, until it reaches a mature stage?
STIMULUS RESPONSE -- does the organism respond to external
stimuli, i.e. Has a nervous system of some sort to detect
external conditions?
To qualify as a living thing, an organism must in one way or
another meet each of those criteria.
Thats life.
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Blitzer read the dialogue.
So are you saying that since your raped then you can abort it?
" Do you really think a woman should be forced to bring an unwanted child into the world?
Pro-Lifer: The homeless are unwanted. May we kill them?"
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
As I said also "Abortions are not ethical to most of us, but we can't tell others what to do or not to either." I had meant there are also other ways than abortion Jacob. Also one of DA's examples, give the baby to someone else or hold it up for adoption. Killing homeless people may as well be as unethical as abortion. They may be unwanted, but that is no reason to kill them.
The point you made was the point the pro lifer made...
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Last edited: Sunday, May 28, 2006 at 3:51:13 PM
Actually when rape occurs (this is if you report it and go to hospital), the uterus is emptied out to help prevent the woman from getting diseases (if possible) and to prevent conception from occuring..........just lil side note....
@player.........im also against death penalty and war in Iraq
Humans are sentient, self-aware beings. So the fetus is not human until it has a working nervous system. There is nothing wrong with killing a bunch of cells that have no idea what's going on. Just because the bunch of cells has the genetic code of Homo Sapiens doesn't give it human rights. The key word here is SENTIENT.
Senˇtient (snshnt, -sh-nt)
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious.
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.
Yes.
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Yes he is. He is made of same materials as we are. Blood, organs, flesh, bones, etc.
You don't have to let go of one rope before grabbing the other. But you'll have to let go of one if you want to swing forward.
@J -- In your simple, little mind, everything is black and white, isn't it?
Consider this:
You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. [If he is unplugged from you now, he will die; but in nine months] he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.
Do you have the right to unplug yourself from the violinst if it will cause his death?
If you allow him to keep using your kidneys, is it because you are kind? Or because the violinist can claim from you the use of your kidneys because it's due by his right to life?
Does the right to life entail the right to use another person's body?
If you unplug yourself are you merely depriving the violinist of something -- the use of your body -- to which he has no right?
There's no simple answer to what constitutes a human being. When do we acquire our human-ness? Is it when we are a zygote? Is it when we're a blastula? Is it once we implant in the uterine wall? Is it before the brain forms? Is it after the brain forms? (Is our brain every fully "formed"?) Is it when a certain neural network is established? Is it when a certain set of genes are "turned on"?
Life is gray...can the answers to the deepest questions about it be black and white?
Last edited: Monday, May 29, 2006 at 5:16:00 AM
@J -- In your simple, little mind, everything is black and white, isn't it?
Not in mine, but some shades of grey look more black than others... Glad to have a moderate on the boards somewhere.
I'm proud of you, 44.
You went from "No." to "It depends."
Starting to think that magical man in the sky exists as well?
In my mind, the answer is still "no" -- to both questions. Change to "it depends" reflects my awareness of the importance of perspective.
^^^^^^^
NOTE: this isn't about religion.
Sure...
If u kill anything u could say u are killing
a being with the rational from above.
All living things on earth has a quantum
consciousness and intelligence.
We are not here just to go through life
on autopilot.
We are people of FREE WILL...
For all our problems to be solved for us,
we may as well live in a perfect universe
where there is no DEATH.
Personally I think abortion is wrong, but
than again I am not a woman and have
little merit with my opinion.
Abortion should be between the woman
and herself....
Period
Peace
Until the fetus can survive out of the womb it is part of the females body and her decision. This is the biological definition of when the the starting point of any organisms life and is irrefutable. Any other argument is based upon mysticism, belief, or supposition and cannot be logically supported.
Whether or not abortion is legal as an issue in politics is a battle ground between those who think that the US government should be a theocracy rather than a democracy.
44 why do you yell at me when I said nothing???
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
"Abortion advocate: Why do you insist on being so simplistic? This is a very complex issue involving women who must make agonizing decisions.
Pro-Lifer: The decision may be psychologically agonizing for the mother, but morally it's not complex at all. It's wrong to kill innocent human beings simply because they're in the way and can't defend themselves."
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
Abortion is murder.
Meat is murder
Swatting flies is murder
Definiton of murder:
Kill intentionally and with premeditation
unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being
Unless the flies and meat are DNA altered or w/e, I doubt they can be murder.
Oh, and the wording is a bit skewed toward the pro-lifers' side. We are PRO-CHOICE, not PRO-ABORTION. We could just as easily call you guys ANTI-CHOICE.
^^^
Humans are sentient, self-aware beings. So the fetus is not human until it has a working nervous system. There is nothing wrong with killing a bunch of cells that have no idea what's going on. Just because the bunch of cells has the genetic code of Homo Sapiens doesn't give it human rights. The key word here is SENTIENT.
Senˇtient (snshnt, -sh-nt)
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious.
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.
Until the fetus is sentient and self-aware, it's a PARASITE. If you had a leech on your body, would you kill it?
By some of the above definitions.... I am taking life by scratching a few cells off of my nose. I don't agree at all that a human is created as soon as the sperm enters the egg, nor do I believe that is it sentient just because it has become a microscopic cluster of cells.
When DO I think it is wrong to abort a fetus? Damn, that is a hard question.
I am a pro-choice supporter, and even I don't know what the right answer is for how far along. My answer is more primitive. If a fetus has eyelids, if the fetus spine has closed, if the fetus reacts to stimulus, if the fetus looks like a human.... I guess the bottom line is, could the fetus survive outside of the womb? Like I said... There are no easy answers.
It's nice to have a theoretical examination of the pros and cons of abortion. The real test comes when your partner/lover/wife/one-night-stander/mistress/part-time girlfriend etc. Comes to you and says 'Im pregnant'. Then the question is 'should we keep it?'.
In an ideal world we would all only get involved with people we absolutely love, and would abstain from engaging in love making with partners we know are not 'the one'.
Unfortunately (or fortunately?) we're wired in such a way that we're madly driven toward each others: God (or evolution, it's the same thing) endowed us with LIBIDO, which sometimes propels us toward irrational encounters... With fruitful, but unwanted, results. Libido is pretty strong; apparently it peaks when a woman is around 35 years old, and 18 for a man.
I'd be curious to see here who was confronted with unwanted pregnancy... And what they did.
Kudos to you if you decided to be pro-life. As to me, I've made choices that I came to regret, and more than once.
Everyone else talks from armchair and slippers. It's easy to say 'this is good and this is bad' until you get involved personally.
It's easy to say 'this is good and this is bad' until you get involved personally.
I love ya man, but the time to "get involved" happen BEFORE someone gets pregnant. And yes, there are those who do take that seriously (raises... Uh, hand). After that it is choice. I wouldn't want to make that call.
KKB, I wouldn't have thought it possible, but you keep getting simpler.
{WalMart free for over 24 months!}
No this time he used to big words :)
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
@44 - interesting analogy, except for the kidnapping part. Its presented in such a way to make it seem very reasonable, but I'm having a lot of difficulty carrying on your story to fit the real world. If I were asked to join with the violinist, would I be responsible? Yes. If I were told meeting with the violinist could result in being connected to him, I might not meet with him regardless of how well he played. BUT once connected, regardless of the circumstance, could I in good conscience have him detached? I don't think so. I might sue him later or have the Society arrested or some other action after the 9 mos., but just cutting him loose because I don't want to...pretty cold.
But how about we make it more fun? Instead of a famous violinist, perhaps a blind paralytic or beautiful woman? Does the person's station in life affect our decision as well?
Last edited: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 at 8:45:36 AM
He wanted us to say thats not fair so he can say "rape is not fair" or something.
Pray to GOD for him to reveal himself to you.
@ Flea: yes indeed to be 'careful' and of course to prevent, and to think before, etc.. But the debate about abortion deals with the aftermath of an unwanted pregnancy. Prevention is another thing altogether, and everyone engages in that one way or another (abstinence, prophylactic, etc.). Abortions deals with incidents and accident which are part of life, even in a Brave New World.
@Rabban
BUT once connected, regardless of the circumstance, could I in good conscience have him detached? I don't think so.
Would you require that all others make the same "choice"?
Let's make the violinest a hobo.
Does that make a difference?
JLY!'s thread is trying to narrow the argument to only one question. Is the unborn a human being or not, then he tries to qualify it with a self dialog, much like how Donald Rumsfeld interviews himself instead of answering a press question and allowing a follow up.
I'm taking a liking to KKB's simplicity so I'll try my hand at it, but you know me, it will never be that short.
JLY!, if you have a difficult time with that abortion question just restate it:
Is a woman only an incubator?
Here are a couple more:
If a women gets pregnant it is the guys fault.
The public voice of righty religion has been reduced to being only anti gay and anti women.
{WalMart free for over 24 months!}
Last edited: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 at 9:20:35 PM
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Yes another abortion thread... But this is the one that matters...
keep the conversation on the important facts.
Abortion advocate: Abortion is a private choice between a woman and her doctor.
Pro-Lifer: Do we allow parents to abuse their children if done in privacy?
Abortion advocate: That's not fair. Those children are human beings.
Pro-Lifer: Then the issue isn't really privacy, is it, but rather "Is the unborn a human being?"
Abortion advocate: But many poor women cannot afford to raise another child.
Pro-Lifer: When human beings get expensive, may we kill them?
Abortion advocate: Well, no, but aborting a fetus is not the same as killing a person.
Pro-Lifer: So, once again, the real question is, "What is the unborn? Is a fetus the same as a person?"
Abortion advocate: Why do you insist on being so simplistic? This is a very complex issue involving women who must make agonizing decisions.
Pro-Lifer: The decision may be psychologically agonizing for the mother, but morally it's not complex at all. It's wrong to kill innocent human beings simply because they're in the way and can't defend themselves.
Abortion advocate: Killing defenseless human beings is one thing; aborting a fetus is another.
Pro-Lifer: So we're agreed: If abortion actually killed a defenseless human being, then the issue wouldn't be complex at all. The question is, "What is the unborn?"
Abortion advocate: Enough with your abstract philosophy. Let's talk about real life. Do you really think a woman should be forced to bring an unwanted child into the world?
Pro-Lifer: The homeless are unwanted. May we kill them?
Abortion advocate: But it's not the same.
Pro-Lifer: That's the issue, isn't it: Are they the same? If the unborn are truly human like the homeless, then we can't just kill them to get them out of the way. We're back to my first question, "What is the unborn?"
Abortion advocate: But you still shouldn't force your morality on women.
Pro-Lifer: You'd feel very comfortable "forcing your morality" on a mother who was physically abusing her two-year-old, wouldn't you?
Abortion advocate: But the two cases are not the same.
Pro-Lifer: Why not?
Abortion advocate: Because you're assuming the unborn are human, like a two-year-old.
Pro-Lifer: And you're assuming they're not. You see, this is not really about privacy, or economic hardship, or complexity, or unwantedness, or forcing morality. The real question is, "What is the unborn?" Answer that question and you've automatically answered the others.
NOTE: this isn't about religion.
Last edited: Sunday, May 28, 2006 at 1:18:12 PM