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http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11717105/robert_f_kennedy_jr__will_the_next_election_be_hacked/print
I could essentially quote every paragraph in the article to incite a little fervor, but instead here's one. Click the link and pick your own.

Electronic voting machines also caused widespread problems in Florida, where Bush bested Kerry by 381,000 votes. When statistical experts from the University of California examined the state's official tally, they discovered a disturbing pattern: "The data show with 99.0 percent certainty that a county's use of electronic voting is associated with a disproportionate increase in votes for President Bush. Compared to counties with paper ballots, counties with electronic voting machines were significantly more likely to show increases in support for President Bush between 2000 and 2004." The three counties with the most discrepancies - Broward, Palm Beach and Miami-Dade - were also the most heavily Democratic. Electronic voting machines, the report concluded, may have improperly awarded as many as 260,000 votes to Bush. "No matter how many factors and variables we took into consideration, the significant correlation in the votes for President Bush and electronic voting cannot be explained," said Michael Hout, a member of the National Academy of Sciences.


At this point, purple thumbs would be progress. Maybe we're the ones that need to be liberated.

Friday, September 22, 2006 at 1:01:41 PM

^ Good thing. Can you imagine if Kerry won? Ohhhhh (chills up spine).
He doesn't even make an average Senator. Who thinks he could function as President?

Friday, September 22, 2006 at 1:48:56 PM

Better to just rig the elections and not find out. I believe that, sir, makes you something of a fascist. Hooray, fascist.

What exactly do you think Kerry could have done worse at this point?

---

No more straw men, kkb? No other means of changing the subject? Democracy not that important to you?

Last edited: Friday, September 22, 2006 at 3:51:26 PM

Friday, September 22, 2006 at 2:27:11 PM
44

What is a straw man? Jacob, can you help?

Friday, September 22, 2006 at 4:40:15 PM

What is important is that your side win, at whatever cost. Democracy? Its nice when it works, but it isn't everything.

"The data show with 99.0 percent certainty that a county's use of electronic voting is associated with a disproportionate increase in votes for President Bush. Compared to counties with paper ballots, counties with electronic voting machines were significantly more likely to show increases in support for President Bush between 2000 and 2004." The three counties with the most discrepancies - Broward, Palm Beach and Miami-Dade - were also the most heavily Democratic.


Right, facists?

Last edited: Friday, September 22, 2006 at 4:43:50 PM

Friday, September 22, 2006 at 4:42:48 PM

I don't like the tone, even though I can understand the exasperation.

Friday, September 22, 2006 at 8:29:49 PM

Aye hb, I also find it unsettling. As a thinker of the critical orientation, I find such ends as the justification for the means to be the saddest of all. We all know how this goes, the unconstitutionally unamerican - ocasionally criminal - acts that cause "the left" to cringe while "the right" wraps itself in the flag. It's no doubt exasperating. It's also enough to piss us the hell off. What fate could justify such ignorace? Our history is dotted both by cowards who brewed fear among the populi to consolidate power and courageous men who did the reverse, who "threw aside their chains" for true freedom, safety and security be damned. No righties, those aren't Marxist terms in those quotes; they are the words of Thomas Jefferson. For every McCarthy, there were braver men who saw through the cracks and let the light shine in, people who understood why the liberal enlightenment that birthed this country was so outstanding. KKB doesn't need to get it. History forgets people like him with the simple and immediate turning of a hand. I remember a slave song from camp that went something like "...and before I'll be a slave, I'll be buried in my grave, and go back to my land, and be free." It sounds hyperbolic, but it's not, as the will of the corrupt and the avaricious is absolute, but to many, their appeal is difficult to resist. Already spouting his acid, Hitler won an election. But there are better men. Better men resist. Peddling fear is a coward's game, but it's a greater sin to sacrifice your freedoms to run from boogey men.
Better men resist.

Friday, September 22, 2006 at 9:51:25 PM

Tally Ho for president.

Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 12:19:34 AM

Ducky for v.p.

Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 12:25:49 AM
44

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety , deserve neither liberty nor safety ."
--Ben Franklin

P.S. That ticket ^ can't win...the JJ/KKB ticket has rigged the booths.

Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 4:40:50 AM

Lol, I have to take KKB's post with a grain of salt, he couldn't possibly be advocating facism, could he?

How ironic that one of the few legitimate functions of government can get so screwed up. I have to wonder if, because of the poor results of all the non legitimate tasks we've handed over to the government, people just lump vote counting in with all the other lowered expectations. Priorities and attitudes about election tabulating clearly need to change. Kudos to the whistle blower, he's my hero.

Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 7:11:34 AM

Yeah, Im a Nazi.
I believe in responsibility for ones own actions. I believe in God.
I believe that this nation is one Nation Under God.
Been that way for 230 years and doing just fine.

I also believe that liberals and some democrats are going insane with the fact that republicans rule the congress and the presidency.

You are the facists. You are against our beloved country fighting the the facist muslim enemy in the middle east. Its kill or be killed and it will take a long time to deal with these animals.

Get over it.

If Kerry were president........

Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 6:54:25 PM

You are against our beloved country

We have a right to be. Fascists don't recognize that.

Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 7:33:18 PM

Tally: Jefferson owned slaves. Get your facts strait.
You just dissed yourself. Get real my friend. XD

AND I am waiting for your reply regarding my BELOVED POPE BENEDICT!!! XD

Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 8:39:38 PM

Ohh, and dont forget that Kerry is an absoute failure in his military career, congress and his run for president.
Can you give me a reason why he is not?

Saturday, September 23, 2006 at 9:26:11 PM

Kkb, there's no helping you. Your convictions negate thought and reason.
44 at the podium.

[for the record, jefferson knew slavery was bullshit and against the spirit of the revolution. It's in his letters; don't make me research. Also for the record, washington owned slaves; he granted them freedom in his will the day he died. The word for that is progressive . Also for the record, my jefferson reference above was not an allusion to slavery, which came later; it was a reference to man's innate desire for self-government, you know, like the one we bombed into baghdad. Lastly, I'm done chasing your idiotic strawmen around. The next time you cite under-god divine province crap in an conversation about election fraud, that will be the last time I speak with you, for I will have looked into your eyes, and died laughing.]

Btw, happy new year.

Last edited: Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 12:57:00 AM

Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 12:40:18 AM

^ Ditto.

Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 6:27:08 AM
-z-

Heh I remember seeing one counties published results in one of the North-east deciding vote states - can't for the life of me remember where now though. I found it so amusing I actually saved all the results from the states gov website - but sadly that is back on my PC in the UK - anyhoo.. Cut to the chase, the figures showed more people having voted for Bush than there were actual registered voters in the county, and just a handful for Kerry. (One of the machine voting counties) whereas every exit poll and forecast was about 60-40 to Kerry.

I also remember reading many articles stating that many of these machines appeared to have large blocks of like 4000 votes registered for Bush at once, some of these machines having the votes for bush appear on them before the actual polling stations had opened... However... Don't necessarily believe everything you read, but there were a lot of very disturbing trends around that time and a lot of the same stories coming from different corners of america..

Anyway - it's mostly all irrelevant because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always gets in.

-Z-

Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 9:23:41 AM

I made a pact not to post in this thread, but this made me laugh:

Ohh, and dont forget that Kerry is an absoute failure in his military career, congress and his run for president.

Ok, so while Kerry was apparently failing in the military (still alive, ain't he?), George Bush was getting a haircut... What is wrong with this picture. And about his run for president. According to your other posts (and the point of this thread), you beleive the only reason he did not win was because of the possiblity that the voting machines were rigged. So... Er... Right then.

I am not saying I liked Kerry, but almost anything is better than bush meatpuppet. Now we just have to pray that Bush stays safe for the next two years to Cheny doesn't get to take over.

Pardon my rudeness, I cannot abide useless people.

Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 10:25:25 AM

PG, it's just red meat for the base who conveniently ignore Kerry's purple-hearting failures while Bush had the white powder going up his nose. Nevermind it.
Hey, what's up zed?

Last edited: Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 10:50:46 AM

Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 10:50:16 AM

Good article Tally
In the back country in Iowa we still fill in circles with a # 2 pencil;
works good, can be counted fast and has a paper trail.
I suppose in the name of progress we will soon be made to
buy those danm machines.
I guess we should be carefull what we wish for, a few hanging chads
not so bad after all.
To ease your mind look closer...

Florida, where Bush bested Kerry by 381,000 votes

Electronic voting machines, the report concluded, may have improperly awarded as many as 260,000 votes to Bush.

( in Florida)

T raider

Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 3:54:39 PM

I saw that too t raid, but wondered if it was referring to 260,000 votes awarded to bush only in the three counties mentioned vs in all of florida.

The point is, though, why were those machines so biased toward bush? What the hell is behind that? Doesn't that make even you bush supporters anxious, nervous for democracy? Its a shame that such a thing can happen here, goddam shame. Voting is the most essential component of a democracy, and someone out there is taking that away from us...

Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 7:29:25 PM

What's also tragic about America in thos eyears is whatever is decided in Washington and whoever is President, it has a huge ripple effect around the globe. 'Tragic' perhaps is not the proper word; but the impact of the US (apparently the leading nation state nowadays) around the world is real.
+++
Also KKB and the others have a point: there's real, active fascism in some muslim organizations, and it must be addressed too (for the record: to pre-emptively bomb, invade and destroy countries is not a solution). Fascism is about power, it's a type of primitive political organization wanting to take power to impose its will - and it's not necessarily about 'root causes'.

Getting out of Iraq and of Afghanistan, solving the Palestinian problem, etc. Etc. Will certainly certainly moderate the world, but I don't think the latter can be fully solved; there'll always be resentful people wanting to brew trouble.

+++
At the same time, who is the offending party right now is clear: there are hundreds of thousands of US troops scattered around; doesn't it seem an aberration that your government has military bases in most countries of the world? Up here in Canada we can't even buy decent choppers nor transport planes for the troops; the public always call for military cutbacks... And if Quebec one day becomes independant they'll have a policy of Neutrality based on the Swiss model - woot!

+++

Nice quote -Z-:

Anyway - it's mostly all irrelevant because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always gets in.


Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 7:53:46 PM

Also KKB and the others have a point: there's real, active fascism in some muslim organizations...


HB, I think so too, but I thought KKB's point was that "liberals and some democrats" were fascists by virtue of being "against our beloved country fighting the the facist muslim enemy in the middle east." I took that as more of the useful and fully democratic if you're not with us you're against us policy. Specifically applied to this case: liberals and some democrats say something anti-administration therefore they are lumped into the same category as groups that have sworn death and destruction to Israelis and Westerners. Flawless logic, I say.

And it looks like the beloved Infallible One has been forgetting parts of his own manual:

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 12:16:34 AM
44

^Great post.

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 7:26:55 AM
JJ

Quotes in the news:

“Were [the President] not a millionaire, illiterate and ignorant, then he would obviously understand that you cannot revolt against the [middle class] peasants.”

“The provocation-mongers are seeking to create an atmosphere in which the nations would live in constant fear. If such an atmosphere satisfies the United States government it can in no way satisfy the...overwhelming majority of other states [in the world].”

“This is a preposterous farce, unworthy of refutation, in which [the President] makes a mockery of [the President] himself."

“For there are among you — and here I intend the United States of America and others like it — those who supply our enemy freely with planes and bombs and with every variety of murderous weapon.”

"Doesn't that make even you...supporters [of the President} anxious, nervous for democracy? Its a shame that such a thing can happen here, goddam shame. Voting is the most essential component of a democracy, and someone out there is taking that away from us...

Who said them?

Last edited: Monday, September 25, 2006 at 9:37:07 AM

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 9:36:23 AM
JJ

Answers:

Fidel Castro
Nikta Krushchev
Wu Xiuquan of China in 1950
Arafat
Stinker

Heh

Edit: Of course, if not obivious, the Presidents were Kennedy, Truman, and quotes are from past UN speechs.

Last edited: Monday, September 25, 2006 at 11:59:41 AM

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 9:40:30 AM

All I can say is, if Bush stole the election he needs to be prosecuted (or at least someone's head needs to roll). This issue really, REALLY needs to be addressed cause we defintely don't want this to happen again. I like the idea of a slip of paper and a #2 pencil, worked in college, should work in an election. I might not even be opposed to adding my SSN to the ballot if it meant insuring accountability (and that the ballot was secured, then destoyed after the candidates were instated).

I suppose the catch is, if Bush is ultimately responsible for voting irregularities, do the Dems *really* want to impeach him? Are they ready for President Cheney? I doubt it, which is probably why the "stolen election" idea hasn't gained much momentum in the judicial system. But it should serve as a call to revamp the system once again, otherwise we're going to find ourselves losing our voting power and the special interests (read: Rich) are going basically establish an aristocracy in America.

Last edited: Monday, September 25, 2006 at 10:59:19 AM

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 10:58:47 AM

I love that pope picture. I have seen it today three times. Makes me everytime smile. Had to download it too.

Thought "The Infallible One" is judging time Now, but he is been judged by time Past. Judging him by past is little bit silly imo.

You don't have to let go of one rope before grabbing the other. But you'll have to let go of one if you want to swing forward.

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 11:27:02 AM
JJ

Rabban,

Why do you even mention Cheney should be President? Why should you even assume the Republicans did this? Come on.

ACLU has called vote-rigging a bi-partisan issue.

If you want to jump on a conspiracy theory, which is all that this is then think this:

This is all part of a effort by the out-of-office Left's attempt to scandalize elections and force themselves back into control. Because the people just don't understand how right the Left is and how much they are needed.

Might also want to consider that vote tallying is a by state thing and not a national issue. If Ohioians are just getting to understanding basic voting procedures, then they must be evolving into a higher order of citizen. Bout time.

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 12:08:36 PM
JJ

And Triv, in addition to silly cartoons, try reading the Pope's speech for balance. That cartoon is pure ad hom out of context.

Oh, my pained neck.

Let's try a little logic, really then?

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 12:12:40 PM

That's pretty bad! I've never been one to extremely beat up on Bush, but this is rather cheap! Is this really on accident? And although I'm NOT a fan of Kerry, well, "to each his own". Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Presidents should be elected by popular vote... NOT some "slip" in the tally. Governments never cease to amaze me with how much they actually keep from you. I had never heard about this. If their not "keeping" everything from you, they'll just go out and twist the truth, thus leading people to believe false scenarios. Hey, anything for a vote, eh? Not only that, but I've always had this funny feeling that the war in Iraq is mostly over oil. I find it rather hard to believe we just went over there to free their people. Um... Hello, we got Saddam Hossein already! But that's just one of the reasons that lead me to believe there is a lot of unexposed stuff going on. Seem like each new leader, each new surprise.

///ed

Last edited: Monday, September 25, 2006 at 12:53:33 PM

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 12:50:01 PM

JJ: what was your point?

Answers:

Fidel Castro
Nikta Krushchev
Wu Xiuquan of China in 1950
Arafat
Stinker

Heh

Other than to associate my name with those lovelies? The piece of mine that you quoted addressed a general concern for democracy in the US, while the other guys were lambasting either the US or the president. I did neither. Rather flacid stuff their.

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 1:13:31 PM

The Pope cartoon is way off base.
All he did was quote a pope from 500 yrs ago and want to open some dialogue with the Muslims.

, All I said about fascism is that if a liberal that supports the fascists then that lib is a fascists too. Your only as good as the people you surround yourself with.

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 2:12:12 PM

How are we supporting fascists?????????
You are most definitely the fascist. If you don't realize that then you're hopeless.

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 2:16:28 PM
JJ

The rhetoric doesn't sound familiar?

How often does someone say that Bush is a millionaire idiot or the devil. (Ask the Dixie Chicks and Hugo Chavez?)

How much does the Left say that the point of Bush politics is an "atmosphere in which the nations [and US citizens] would live in constant fear"? The Republicans win elections that way, you know. Right.

Arafat's claim that we supply the world with weapons? Well, a point to Arafat. Companies in the US do sell arms. And Arafat was as white as newly fallen snow in weapons purchases too.

Your point is that Bush is rigging voting machines and stealing democracy.

There is no proof. Any cases in court? Anyone in jail? The US does have laws against vote rigging. It might actually have been that voting machines were biased for Bush because people voted for Bush. Possible?

I wouldn't go so far as to throw speculation back at you, but it's a bad day in any civilized place when speculation and screedifying passes for cause.

Last edited: Monday, September 25, 2006 at 2:45:31 PM

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 2:41:32 PM

You make a good point JJ. Seems like there would be much more of an outbreak and debate if something like that were to happen. I don't think the people would just let something like this just sit in the grass. Seems like the press would have also gotten involved if something like this was uncovered. But, seeing as how this is the first I heard about it, I find it a little hard to believe. Then again, there are a load of people out there that very much dismay feelings towards Bush. As I also recall though, I can't remember everyone being against Bush's campaign at the beginning of his run as president. Like you were saying about the Dixie Chicks, JJ. I remember when a huge revolt broke out when they openly criticized Bush. It even made it to the news with a lot of unhappy fans trashing CDs and such. Now look at everyone's views on Bush. I have to believe this war in Iraq had something to do with it. Lots have changed over a short period of time!

///ed

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 2:58:44 PM

In kbb's world, you're either peeing in his toilet, or you're peeing on his floor. It's an absolutist world, and there is nowhere else to go to the bath room ( absolutist indeed, unless of course you voted for the other guy, but then eh....margin of error).

In other "news," there are so many illogical statements in here supporting a priori knowledge my mind is officially blown.

Good posts by the psychoscrummers, however, and props to rabban for not going ostrich.

That post is not ad hom, btw; it's historical. Disagree or not, it's a question not of who has more blood on his hands, but who has enough.
And the answer is, they both do, a little humility? A little dialogue? A little conference? A little discourse? When this alleged judgment comes down, I'll tell you right now that among those I don't want to be are they who claim they speak for god.

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/09/we_earned_it.html

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 3:04:41 PM

My "point" was a question and a plea, not a point per se. I do not believe that bush rigs votes, though I do believe that GOP forces do. You are wrong to suggest that litigation is the only way to demonstrate malfeasance, though there is currently litigation concerning voter repression and the GOP forces under way in Oregon.

There is no proof. Any cases in court? Anyone in jail? The US does have laws against vote rigging. It might actually have been that voting machines were biased for Bush because people voted for Bush. Possible?

Possible? Machine bias? No, it isn't. Machines aren't biased. Gloss over statistical improbability much? But you suggest that if no one is in jail, no one committed a crime, a point OJ continues to make...what form of logical fallacy is that particular rhetorical poop?

You are asking for proof, but all I can offer is evidence. Proof is what evidence becomes when it accumulates in a court or in a committee. Of course, no court or committee will convene on this matter until the democrats control one or both. Which appears to be in the offing...and then you will have your proof. Republicans aren't interested in oversight generally and "proof" of this nature at all.

Evidence:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11717105/robert_f_kennedy_jr__will_the_next_election_be_hacked/print
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/08/15/states/index_np.html

I wouldn't go so far as to throw speculation back at you, but it's a bad day in any civilized place when speculation and screedifying passes for cause.

Unfortunately, when your government is controlled by one party and congress isn't interested in oversight, that's about all one has left...if one has any principles at all.

Last edited: Monday, September 25, 2006 at 3:25:56 PM

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 3:22:54 PM

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 3:27:11 PM

You know do you guys think the war would go on if John kerry was are president

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 5:14:42 PM

^What war?

Ignorance is indeed bliss my Ho. The old guard did not see the headlamp of the train speeding toward them.

We have no right to ignore information. It will become progressively less credible to claim ignorance when confronted by easily predictable events (e.g. As George W. Bush did with respect to Hurricane Katrina's disastrous effects on New Orleans's flood barriers) and painfully obvious facts (e.g. As British politician Tessa Jowell did with respect to her husband's finances in a widely publicized scandal).

• There will be vast common knowledge. Because of the amount of information available on any given topic, we will have no right to claim ignorance, not just because the information was available, but because everyone else will know that the information was available.

• From these two consequences, it follows that, in the future, we shall witness a steady increase in the responsibilities of our information agents, whether they be people, companies, or bots that seek out information on our behalf.

{WalMart free for over 24 months!}

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 7:25:15 PM

KKB, when the quote says 'nothing but evil and violence ever came from your religion once your prophet opened his mouth', it's not an invitation to open dialogue. It's an insult that no faithable person would tolerate.

And:

Your only as good as the people you surround yourself with.


The moderate portion of the Republican Party will be smarting from these words of wisdom for the foreseeable future, methinks.

Last edited: Monday, September 25, 2006 at 9:36:19 PM

Monday, September 25, 2006 at 9:31:07 PM
44

^When did this guy start taking smart pills? Or have I not been paying attention?

Jesus Christ, George...let's see you get a third star.

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 at 5:27:25 AM

@JJ - I didn't suggest Cheney should be president, only that his presidency would result if Bush was impeached. And I'm not assuming the election was rigged, but it does warrant looking into. That said, its been 6 years now and nothing's really come of it. Maybe that will change if the Dems take the House and/or Senate, but I don't think it will end up with Bush getting the boot when it comes down to it. I don't think they would want to since that would put Cheney in and set him up for a run in 2008. Some other offical will take the fall, there will be calls for reform and we'll try it again in '08 with a closer eye on the process.

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 at 7:23:34 AM

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